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#13383 - 02/06/09 07:21 AM [Off-Topic] Networking issue
Registered: 05/13/03
Posts: 7527
Loc: Rio Grande Valley, Texas
silvertones Offline
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Registered: 05/13/03
Posts: 7527
Loc: Rio Grande Valley, Texas
I'm trying to set up an ad hoc network between my 2 computers, a Dell & a Toshiba without the use of a router. I have the 2 wireless cards set up with the same ssid name and the same 128 bit encryption code. As you can see their connected but I consistently get this. If I fiddle with it sometimes it works. Not sure what's going on.I'm showing the Dell. When I go to the Toshiba "computers near me" only shows the Toshiba and not the Dell.
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#13384 - 02/06/09 07:59 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Networking issue [Re: silvertones]
Registered: 05/13/03
Posts: 7527
Loc: Rio Grande Valley, Texas
silvertones Offline
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Registered: 05/13/03
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Loc: Rio Grande Valley, Texas
I figured it out. If I disable my Firewall it works fine. I just need to figure out how to set my Firewall to allow this connection.
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John
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#13385 - 02/06/09 06:08 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Networking issue [Re: silvertones]
Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 1439
Loc: NSW, Australia
Lawrie Offline
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Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 1439
Loc: NSW, Australia
G'day Silvertones,
umm, which firewall?

Ports 137, 138 and 139 are the NETBios ports on TCP/IP - these need to be open for sharing to work. For the most part, it's probably redundant to worry about a personal firewall on a local net that is behind a NAT gateway. Of course, if you DO get compromised it can spread fairly quickly then...

However, by opening those ports for local sharing, it will spread anyhow... You either share or you don't. If you do, the firewall becomes redundant as you have to defeat it anyhow.

Personal firewalls do nothing to protect you if you are behind a NAT gateway as the gateway (router) is already preventing direct access to your PC's. The only exception to this would be if you have setup a DMZ that points to one of your PC's. In this case, it is directly exposed to the internet via the DMZ redirection.

If you don't have a DMZ redirection just leave the firewalls off... Unless you want to get really creative in the firewall filter configuration, but you'd need to buy something fairly sophisticated to make it worth while.


Edited by Lawrie (02/06/09 06:10 PM)
_________________________
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya laugh --=--
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#13386 - 02/06/09 06:56 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Networking issue [Re: Lawrie]
Registered: 01/24/03
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Muzic Trax Offline
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Firewall software should have an icon in system tray. R-click on it and see if there are options to use to allow the connection.

Trax

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#13387 - 02/07/09 12:09 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Networking issue [Re: Muzic Trax]
Registered: 05/13/03
Posts: 7527
Loc: Rio Grande Valley, Texas
silvertones Offline
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Registered: 05/13/03
Posts: 7527
Loc: Rio Grande Valley, Texas
Thanks for the ideas. I've been on vacation at a friends house for 2 months so I'll wait to get home to my normal setup.
At home all I have is dial up so shutting off the Firewall is not an issue. The only reason to setup the network between my Internet computer and my music computer is to allow files I've downloaded to be transferred to the music computer. I also want to share the printer.
I really need to get a book first and study up on networking before I get into this discussion deeper.
I use PC Tools Firewall Plus.
Now for the sake of discussion. The wireless LAN is 128 bit WEP encrypted. Not likely that a lurker will get in. If in the Firewall I allow all traffic from the "Trusted Zone" I should then be able to connect the 2 computers. If I take the computer with the Firewall to the library and connect to their unsecured network any attacks from the internet should still be blocked.
These statements are mostly questions. Trying to learn. Ideally it's best to have the whole network protected behind a hardware Firewall.
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John
ESI Gigaport HD+
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#13388 - 02/07/09 04:48 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Networking issue [Re: silvertones]
Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 1439
Loc: NSW, Australia
Lawrie Offline
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Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 1439
Loc: NSW, Australia
G'day Silvertones,
not familiar with the PC Tools product, but if it gives you that control then good.

What you say 'bout the library network is probably 'bout half right. It may be unsecured, but I seriously doubt it is "open" to the internet - there will be a hardware NAT gateway...

As for the "local zone" traffic, this will be defined by the IP address range in use. If the library and your own (friend's LAN) are using the same range (E.G. 192.168.x.x or maybe a 10.x.x.x range) then it will be the local zone anyhow, so you need to make sure you don't use the same range as the library or it will be in the "local zone".

Also, the fact the library LAN is unencrypted suggestes the possibility that a "war driver" could be outside - or inside for that matter - quietly infecting stuff. For this kind of use a personal firewall is a very good idea.
_________________________
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya laugh --=--
You're only paranoid if you're wrong!

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#13389 - 02/07/09 05:55 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Networking issue [Re: Lawrie]
Registered: 05/13/03
Posts: 7527
Loc: Rio Grande Valley, Texas
silvertones Offline
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Registered: 05/13/03
Posts: 7527
Loc: Rio Grande Valley, Texas
Lawrie,
Appreciate your knowledge on the subject. A little over my head but I have a good head so I'm getting the jist.

My Dell laptop is the one I use for dialup or take to the local library or on a trip to get my email or come to this forum. I use a Belkin G+ Mimo card along with the personal PC Tools Firewal. Everything is fine up to now. I want to wirelessly network my Toshiba to the Dell. I have created a 128 bit WEP encrypted connection. So far so good. Now the Firewall in the Dell won't let me go further. I know I can just disable the Firewall BUT I want to learn how to set up the Firewall to allow just this one computer ( Toshiba) to pass data through without creating a big hole that someone in the library or other public WiFi spot can get through..
_________________________
John
ESI Gigaport HD+
Lenovo Turion II /4 Gig Ram/ Win7x64 be
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"The only Band is a Real Band"
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#13390 - 02/08/09 07:16 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Networking issue [Re: silvertones]
Registered: 05/13/03
Posts: 7527
Loc: Rio Grande Valley, Texas
silvertones Offline
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Registered: 05/13/03
Posts: 7527
Loc: Rio Grande Valley, Texas
Where I'm staying I have wired DSL through a modem that has a built in Firewall. When I look at the history in my personal software firewall it shows no blocked traffic as it should being behind a NAT gateway, When I try to access this computer over the wireless LAN I do show blocked traffic. I assume from the LAN. Why can't I just tell the Firewall to allow only this traffic from this address?
_________________________
John
ESI Gigaport HD+
Lenovo Turion II /4 Gig Ram/ Win7x64 be
15.6" Monitor
"The only Band is a Real Band"
www.Wintertexaninfo.com/Bands/JohnnyD.php

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#13391 - 02/08/09 08:05 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Networking issue [Re: silvertones]
Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 1439
Loc: NSW, Australia
Lawrie Offline
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Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 1439
Loc: NSW, Australia
G'day Silvertones,
as I said, I'm not familiar with the PC Tools firewall, but I would certainly expect that there is some management mechanism to allow you to poke a hole in it for your Toshi.

However, to really secure this so that there isn't an inadvertant hole that someone else might sneak through when you're elswhere you need to make sure the local, approved address (all this traffic management will be IP address based) of the Toshi. is not likely to be replicated at the library.

There are 3 "private" address ranges available for use that never appear on the internet. They are:
a) 10.0.0.0 to 10.255.255.255 - this is a single class A range. Mask is 255.0.0.0
b) 172.16.0.0 to 172.31.255.255 - These are 16 class B ranges. Mask is 255.255.0.0
c) 192.168.0.0 through 192.168.255.255. These are 256 class C addresses and thus normally have a 255.255.255.0 mask

The library network will be on one of these 3 sets of addresses, as will your home LAN.

You will most commonly see either 192.168.0.0/24 (the /24 means 24 bit mask, or 255.255.255.0) or 192.168.1.0/24. The next most common is 10.0.0.0/8 (the /8 is, of course, an 8 bit mask or 255.0.0.0)

If you select a very uncommon range for your LAN at home then you can be reasonably confident of leaving your firewall open for that range. I would also consider using a non-standard mask for the local LAN IF your router/access point will allow and the built in DHCP server can cope.

Perhaps use a 172 range, like 172.29.0.0/28 - this would make available the address range 172.29.0.0 to 172.29.0.15 (14 usable addresses the lowest is always the network identifier and the highest is the broascast address so you always lose 2) - the decimal mask would be 255.255.255.240 - a most unusual mask to use with a class B address as well as being a largely unused private range allocation. Not perfectly secure, but the first step in security should always be obscurity. The reason for the non-standard mask is to further secure things. Even if you happen to connect to a LAN using the same base address range (the 172.329.0.0 part) your machine will still be inaccessible UNLESS they have also picked the same mask.
_________________________
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya laugh --=--
You're only paranoid if you're wrong!

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#13392 - 02/19/09 07:55 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Networking issue [Re: Lawrie]
Registered: 05/13/03
Posts: 7527
Loc: Rio Grande Valley, Texas
silvertones Offline
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Registered: 05/13/03
Posts: 7527
Loc: Rio Grande Valley, Texas
Lawrie,
I'm back home and am having different issues .Let's start fresh.
Want to ad hoc net 2 laptops.
1. Have named each puter & setup a common workgroup.
2. Have setup a profile on each puter with the same ssid.
3. To keep it simple at this point no encryption
4. TCP/IP settings on both puters are set to obtain address automatically.
Some it works but 99.9% of the time I get the message:
"The list of servers for this workgroup is not currently available"
I only read one article that mentions setting the addresses manually & you seem to be insinuating that also in your last post. Should I do that?
If so each machine gets a unique address within the range?What about the mask? Same on each or different?

Thanks
_________________________
John
ESI Gigaport HD+
Lenovo Turion II /4 Gig Ram/ Win7x64 be
15.6" Monitor
"The only Band is a Real Band"
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#13393 - 02/19/09 09:11 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Networking issue [Re: silvertones]
Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 1439
Loc: NSW, Australia
Lawrie Offline
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Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 1439
Loc: NSW, Australia
G'day Silvertones,
being an AD HOC setup there is no access point involved, there won't be a DHCP or DNS server involved either. This makes problems for stuff which the computer browser service should overcome. Problem is this service usually takes ages to update - not really helpful...

So, the easy way to alleviate this is to fix the addresses on the AD HOC network. Make the addresses from one of the ranges mentioned in my previous post (192.168.x.x, 172.17 to 21.x.x or 10.x.x.x - I suggest you use something from the 172 ranges to reduce the possibility of a conflict with any wired network you might connect to). Masks on both machines should match, addresses should be different but within the range defined by the mask. E.G. 172.18.1.1 and 172.18.1.2 with a mask of 255.255.255.248 (this will define a range of 172.18.1.0 to 172.18.1.7. Remember, the 0 and 7 are network and broadcast respectively so only 1 to 6 are available.

Then, you should be able to connect to the other machine by IP address rather than hoping the name will work (there's that slow browser service again). You can always update your local hosts files if you really want to use names. (C:\windows\system32\drivers\etc\hosts) Edit it with Notepad - the syntax has examples in the file. Make sure you end the last line with an <Enter> - this is important!

Also, in this kind of situation it is probably best to go into the TCPIP properties, Advanced button, WINS tab and make sure that either the "Default" or "Enable Netbios over TCP/IP" radio button is selected - if in doubt, select the "Enable..." option.

Get this going with your firewall disabled, then enable it to setup the additional security. Using encryption on the wireless is also a good idea, but again, get it going first then add the encryption - then if it stops working, at least you'll know where to look
_________________________
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya laugh --=--
You're only paranoid if you're wrong!

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#13394 - 02/20/09 07:23 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Networking issue [Re: Lawrie]
Registered: 05/13/03
Posts: 7527
Loc: Rio Grande Valley, Texas
silvertones Offline
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Registered: 05/13/03
Posts: 7527
Loc: Rio Grande Valley, Texas
While waiting to here from you I dabbled around. I've got it fixed so far. Encrypted connection, firewall running & no issues. How did I fix it? By chance. You may be able to offer some insight. Don't even know why I did this. IP addressing still on auto. I uninstalled the "file & printer sharing" service on both machines & then reinstalled. Everything works now. Go figure!

Thanks Lawrie!!
_________________________
John
ESI Gigaport HD+
Lenovo Turion II /4 Gig Ram/ Win7x64 be
15.6" Monitor
"The only Band is a Real Band"
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#13395 - 02/20/09 10:28 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Networking issue [Re: silvertones]
Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 1439
Loc: NSW, Australia
Lawrie Offline
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Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 1439
Loc: NSW, Australia
G'day Silvertones,
good news!

When you select auto IP addressing and there's no DHCP server Windows will assign a 169.x.x.x address. This is OK except you can't predict what address any particular machine will have and it will change with each reboot... However, the browser service should compensate for this. Although, that service can be very slow to update...

Added to that, system boot will be slower than if you used a fixed address as when the wireless NIC service starts Windows will wait for an address to be assigned. With no DHCP server it will wait untill it times out before assigning the 169 address. Fixing the address will eliminate the timeout and speed up the boot process.

Uninstalling and reinstalling the file and print sharing service has probably resolved registry inconsistancies that may have crept in while trying to get things working at the other location you were in.
_________________________
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya laugh --=--
You're only paranoid if you're wrong!

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#13396 - 02/20/09 11:15 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Networking issue [Re: Lawrie]
Registered: 05/13/03
Posts: 7527
Loc: Rio Grande Valley, Texas
silvertones Offline
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Registered: 05/13/03
Posts: 7527
Loc: Rio Grande Valley, Texas
OOPS! minor issue. The firewall was disabled and indeed does block.
Ok so now I'll change from auto IP assign to a static IP address and mac as suggested.
I should then be able to write a custom rule for the firewall allowing connections from that IP & mac.
My only security issue would be if another machine out there on the internet had the same IP & mac?
_________________________
John
ESI Gigaport HD+
Lenovo Turion II /4 Gig Ram/ Win7x64 be
15.6" Monitor
"The only Band is a Real Band"
www.Wintertexaninfo.com/Bands/JohnnyD.php

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#13397 - 02/20/09 11:42 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Networking issue [Re: silvertones]
Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 1439
Loc: NSW, Australia
Lawrie Offline
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Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 1439
Loc: NSW, Australia
Quote:

My only security issue would be if another machine out there on the internet had the same IP & mac?




That's why you use the 172 address. The 4 sets of ranges 192.etc, 172.etc, 10.etc and 169.etc as mentioned above are "unroutable". The internet "knows" about them and will not route them properly, if at all, as these ranges do not legitimately exist on the internet.

Even if you had a router setup to route any of these ranges no connections could take place as the response packets cannot route back to you. These ranges can only successfully be used behind a NAT (Network Address Translation) gateway or a proxy server.

BTW, theoretically mac addresses are globally unique. I say theoretically as I have seen both faulty NICs with damaged mac addresses and illegal clones of NICs with matching mac addresses*. However, the mac never extends past the local network. Routers, NIC's, layer 3 switches etc. all have ARP (Address Resolution Protocol) tables in their software to match IP addresses with mac addresses. If the device doesn't know the mac and the IP address is on the local network it will do a broadcast asking for the mac of the device with the required IP address, but this is getting into the protocol to a depth you don't really need...

*This casued problems that were a right royal pain to track down. About 10 years ago customer had bought cards on the cheap in Taiwan and brought them into the country "illegally". Six cards all with the same mac... When I finally figured out what was going on and fixed it (replaced the cards) the mongrel refused to pay and I couldn't even manage to recover my NIC's. Won't happen again - I'm older and wiser now...
_________________________
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya laugh --=--
You're only paranoid if you're wrong!

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#13398 - 02/20/09 12:02 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Networking issue [Re: Lawrie]
Registered: 05/13/03
Posts: 7527
Loc: Rio Grande Valley, Texas
silvertones Offline
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Registered: 05/13/03
Posts: 7527
Loc: Rio Grande Valley, Texas
Well Lawrie everything is running perfectly now. Didn't have to do anything with the Firewall application.
Your knowledge on this stuff is really way over my head .
I totally appreciate it!!
_________________________
John
ESI Gigaport HD+
Lenovo Turion II /4 Gig Ram/ Win7x64 be
15.6" Monitor
"The only Band is a Real Band"
www.Wintertexaninfo.com/Bands/JohnnyD.php

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#13399 - 02/20/09 12:27 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Networking issue [Re: silvertones]
Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 1439
Loc: NSW, Australia
Lawrie Offline
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Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 1439
Loc: NSW, Australia
Cool, glad to have been of assistance.
_________________________
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya laugh --=--
You're only paranoid if you're wrong!

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