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I have just bought a Behringer 120FX mixer and Bose L1 Compact PA and will be playing in public for the first time in my life. I started off plugging the three inputs, from midi sound module, computer (for RTs) and keyboard into the mixer stereo channels and I noticed that the sound from the Bose was very heavy on the bass. I then tried plugging in to the mixer mono channels because these channels have EQ controls. This allowed me to adjust the bass going to the Bose but the piano sound from my Yamaha CP33 keyboard had deteriorated whatever I do at the mixer. The piano sounds "tinny" and looses its Yamaha clarity while the midi and RTs sound OK. I get the same difference in piano sound when listening on headphones at the mixer so this means the difference occurs at the mixer, not the Bose.
I am using left and right 1/4" mono connectors between the piano, mixer and Bose with 2/1 1/4" adapters for mono connections at the mixer and Bose.
Is there a correct way to route these three inputs through the mixer?
Does it make sense that the keyboard is better through the stereo input and the others can go via the mono or stereo input.
Is it normal for the Bose L1 Compact to sound so bass heavy? My Yamaha piano sounds wrong unless I apply some EQ.
Thanks
Tony
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See if there isn't a setting in the piano menu somewhere that sets the output to Mono. OR - Many pianos default to Mono output when using only the L audio output plug. Check the manual for the piano.
--Mac
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how does the bose sound if the Yamaha CP33 keyboard & computer are plugged directly into it?
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Will be interested in your solution as I am curious about the Bose system. I think Mac is on the right track. My Kawai (piano not watch!) works in that fashion and quite frankly the sound sucks on mono. I currently have two Behringer mixers: a 16 channel MX 1604A mixer and a 24 channel UB 2442FX pro mixer. Depending on set up I have used both of them to play: elec piano/synth, vocal mics, acoustic guitar, solid body guitar, and BIAB simultaneously with no degradation of sound. Essentially all I did was plug and play.DennisD
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Thanks for the replies Quote:
See if there isn't a setting in the piano menu somewhere that sets the output to Mono. OR - Many pianos default to Mono output when using only the L audio output plug. Check the manual for the piano.
--Mac
Yes, I get mono if I use just the L output from the keyboard but that doesn't make the piano sound any better when plugged into the mixer mono. However one of the piano voices is called "mono piano" and described in the manual as "good for ensemble performance" I had been ignoring this voice because I didn't like it's piano sound however when I use it there is no longer any difference in the sound between using the mixer stereo or mono inputs so you are on to something. Why would it sound better using a mono piano sound rather than a stereo piano and just combining the left and right at the mixer mono input plug?
I may have to choose between using the "mono piano" through the EQ or my prefered stereo piano and accepting the bass level which is the only thing that is bothering me. Perhaps the Bose will sound better when I can crank it up on stage. I plan to do some sound checks.
Quote:
how does the bose sound if the Yamaha CP33 keyboard & computer are plugged directly into it?
The computer and synth stereo inputs always sound the same which ever route I take.
If I plug a stereo piano sound from keyboard to Bose it sounds the same as going through the mixer stereo inputs i.e. better than going through the mixer mono input.
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The Stereo piano patches contain frequency shifts that sound great when reproduced through a true stereo system where those shifts are mixed "in the air" - BUT when attempting to sum those two channels to mono electrically, it introduces phase cancellations. Typically that will make for a sound we might describe as "THIN" and weak.
The only way to get the true stereo of the piano on the gig with what you are using would be to buy another Bose L setup and run L to one and R to the other. Yeah, I know...$$$
--Mac
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Quote:
The Stereo piano patches contain frequency shifts that sound great when reproduced through a true stereo system where those shifts are mixed "in the air" - BUT when attempting to sum those two channels to mono electrically, it introduces phase cancellations. Typically that will make for a sound we might describe as "THIN" and weak.
Thanks Mac, your explanation fits the facts exactly.
One final question - why does this not happen when I sum the stereo channels from the computer or the synth?
Tony
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First of all, what does your favorite CD routed into the Bose sound like? My guess; bass heavy.
The issue is likely with the Bose, not the rest of your stuff. Get the subwoofer out of a corner or away from the wall - I'm guessing that's where it was when you auditioned your setup.
This is true for any PA, but even more critical with the Bose because they often tell you to put the system BEHIND (read - closer to a wall than other PA systems) the performer. They even crow about this in their instructional videos.
You can get instantly different results just by moving the system around in the room - and there's the rub, you won't know the ideal location for the Bose in the performance room until you are there with all your gear.
You shouldn't have to do a bunch of EQ to your stuff. It's the Bose in your auditioning space, and if you are setting it up at home for audition, you likely don't have a room that's big enough to try out how to use it as if it's in a larger performance space.
For the computer output, put an EQ plugin on the output bus to reduce the bass for while you are auditioning at home, but likely turn that EQ off when you go to your first gig.
That's my read on it. Those Bose systems are great for gigging, but likely problematic with home use. You are experiencing that, IMO. Again, try a favorite non-bass-heavy CD through the Bose, without moving it from it's current location. My guess is that you will say it's bass heavy with that well-done CD. It's not the CD, and it's not the CD player.
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I have a Bose L1 Model 2. Plus the tonematch.
I suppose I'm a bad example of how to listen to gear now, for 2700 hz and above no longer exist, nothing to do there.
BUT.
My home 'studio' is 12 X 24 (feet). I can eq things at the tonematch, and I seem to get lots of positive comments regarding a perceived full sound, and that was hard to get even with my former speakers and keyboard amp.
I also have a range of Behringer mixers, and I ended up giving away my former sound system to a guy starting out.
I was lucky to know quite well people with spots to test my gear and I prevailed on them to let me setup and play. In many venues the staff came out of the kitchen and watched. I know you need more omph to play the full venue with people a coats and tables set etc. so I always ensured that I had that covered. In large venues I needed only to add bass at times, the treble end seemed fine to me, but I suggest to keep the actual setup away from the patrons, by at least 8 to 10 feet if you can.
My Korg keyboard has a left / mono out and I use that with a mono cable. I just bought all new cables and ditched the old ones, I think 10 years of use and the stuff in my cable cupboard was becoming suspect.
BTW, in case you care, the BOSE support a few miles south of you here, has been amazing.
Now that a sport a cane, the 3 trips and I'm in and setting up has turned into 6 trips without help. When my kids were younger I just had them do it, but the last one is packing to leave in a few days, so that's not an option.
I agree with the above, but I'd do my tinkering outside the house. Legion hall maybe?
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Quote:
Thanks Mac, your explanation fits the facts exactly.
One final question - why does this not happen when I sum the stereo channels from the computer or the synth?
Tony
Well, it can, but those two outputs are far less likely to be intentionally making use of the kind of phase shifts that the stereo piano does. In the case of these piano patches, that amount of phase shift adds a realistic and "lively" sound to the tone, making it sound more like an acoustic piano when listened to from a close distance.
When playing out in front of an audience, you don;t really need that close-up sound to be all over the room, as that is not realistic either. The acoustic grand piano does the same thing as you move further away from it, the stereophonics of the thing, bass strings towards L ear, Treble towards R (for the player sitting behind the keyboard) becomes indefinable as to which ear within a very short distance.
--Mac
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To build on Mac's last point, this is critical when actually mixing recorded piano into a multi-track mix as well. I almost always force acoustic piano tracks to mono if I'm mixing the piano sound into a multi-track recording, because that's how it's heard to most people (other than the person playing the instrument).
I used to prefer a certain piano soundfont (Warren Trachtman's sampled steinway soundfont) over a much more delicious Akai (the Splendid soundfont to be exact) because the Trachtman font was recorded at a farther distance from the piano and had less 'artificial' panning built into the font. Didn't require forcing down to mono from stereo. Just some reverb and boom, that piano was in the room, not right in front of your face as if you were sitting at the keyboard.
Tony, please report back on what your fave CDs sound like auditioned directly into the Bose just like shown on Page 2 of the manual.
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As far as the Bose is concerned, rockstar_not is correct, the Bose is quite bass heavy when I play recorded music through it at home. It actually like the overall balance in this situation and I would probably adjust a sound system to sound the same. However when I listen to my piano in this situation the bass/treble balance isn't right for a realistic piano sound. I understand how this should be different in a larger space and I will be auditioning my system at the venue in the next few days.
I now realize that the way my piano sounds when forcing stereo to mono is another issue and has nothing to do with the Bose or the mixer. Whenever I combine piano channels in a stereo to mono adapter the piano sounds thin, as Mac aptly describes it. If I input both piano channels to the mixer or Bose via the phono stereo inputs, the piano sounds "right" (although bass heavy from the Bose)
Thanks for the discussion, there is more to this sound mixing than I realized.
BTW, my first gig isn't anything very grand - just playing for background and dancing at our campground/retirement community in Florida. Our home is a 37ft 5th wheel which may account for the way the Bose sounds!!
Tony
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Tony - this comment: "Whenever I combine piano channels in a stereo to mono adapter" is the problem with the thin sound of the Yamaha. Don't do this, plain and simple.
This will cross-feed the individual outputs from your Yamaha into each other- and while it's probably designed to handle this, it's just bad practice to drive one output channel from a different output channel. You will get some unintended phase cancellation as well as potentially causing damage to the output stages of the Yamaha. Mac can give you the electrical engineering details, but this is not the way to force a mono signal. As Mac pointed out, if you want mono out of the keyboard, use the forced left mono output from the keyboard itself (Left channel for your CP33). That shouldn't sound thin at all. You should be able to run that into one of the mono input channels on the Behringer without issue.
Best wishes and sounds like a good gig. If it's in the Lakeland area, I may look you up sometime when I visit my mom and dad.
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Scott, the two circuits are probably safe from attempts to combine them, as there are most likely resistances in series with each, which, when tied together, will make a resistive mixer as well as handling the current as voltage drop. Won't hurt the circuits, just sounds like poo.
--Mac
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I am so jealous. We were shopping for the RV. Then I got sick. Now I'm fattening up, and my voice is driving me nuts. I had the same idea, and even had the budget done. Our leaving date was this week. (I started planning this 3 years ago).
Well, maybe launch is going to happen anyway. Some time.
I hope it works out. If you are missing any material and need to look somewhere give me a shout. I was going to spring training every day for the Jays. HA.
Just to really get me mad my wife's work took her out for her 25 year lunch celebration.
I wanted more vacation time and some cash bonus.
They hiked her freakin' pay by 5k. I think there's an agenda there, LOL.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Having now played my Yamaha CP33 keyboard with the Bose L1 Compact cranked up I realize that some of the piano sounds are much better through the PA than others. Listening through headphones the pianos are all different but sound natural. Played through the Bose the "Grand Piano 1" has a good treble but a deep booming bass that sounds all wrong. On the other hand the "Grand Piano 2" which is a slightly brighter patch, sounds good at both ends and this is the one I am using.
Another difference that I have never noticed before is the way different piano patches respond to large velocity increases. Some patches respond with an abrupt shrill tone while others are much more forgiving to a heavy touch. This isn't apparent when listening through headphones.
I am not sure what all this means but at least I have found a combination that works for me.
Tony
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Exactly what inputs are you plugging that keyboard into?
It sounds now as if there is either an impedance or gainstaging mismatch going on.
Say, the Line Level outputs of the piano are being plugged into what really should be Mic Level inputs or the like.
Yamaha has great patches and they should sound great and even when amplified without any EQ needed. Something's not right here.
--Mac
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In order to avoid any issues through the mixer I am plugging the keyboard 1/4" outs directly to the Bose. It makes no difference to the sound whether I use left and right or just left plugs (for mono) and whether I use the Bose phono inputs or the single 1/4" input. The Bose always sounds the same.
If I route the piano through my 5.1 system it sounds like I expect and I have also used a pair of powered monitors and never questioned the sound. I have come to the concusion that I am just not sympathetic to the way the Bose sounds with a piano. It just doesn't seem right to get such a booming bass from my left hand.
However, as I said, some piano patches sound much better.
Tony
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"Directly to the Bose" -- LINE input?
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Tony, when you talk about hearing this or that you have to specify if you're talking about playing at the gig or is this playing at home. Playing in a 5th wheel trailor is so far from what you hear in a gig situation I wouldn't even mention it. It has no bearing whatsoever on a gig situation.
The other thing is piano is the single most difficult instrument to get dialed in correctly. Keyboard manufacturers put great effort into making their pianos sound as perfect as possible in a music store or though headphones. The problem with that is music stores have them all set up to play through high end studio monitors. These powered speaker systems are expensive and designed to sound great in a studio or a music store. They are not stage speakers. Same for your 5.1 home theater system. Not a stage setup. Don't even put that comparison in the discussion.
Even the best PA systems need some serious dialing in to get a good piano sound because the design of high powered stage systems and home systems are completely apples and oranges. You would blow up even the best high end home stereo speakers with the first big chord you hit on stage. This is because home systems are designed to play prerecorded music that has already been professionally mixed in a studio, there's no transient peaks in it. Those have been limited out but not so when you're playing live. All you have to is set your piano for a medium level but in the middle of a song suddenly grab a big two handed chord and really hit it and bam, there goes your tweeters. Commercial systems build speakers to handle those peaks at the cost of fine sound quality.
Mac is correct like he always is. Stereo piano is a waste of time in a gig situation. The only time I like having a stereo rig on stage which I use all the time, is for the tremolo sound on EP's and the leslie effect for B3. Especially for the leslie the stereo rig makes a big difference but not for acoustic piano. Even then it's mostly for me because I have my two JBL's set behind me and a few feet to each side so I'm right in the middle of the stereo field but 10-15 feet out front it's lost. This is for small to medium jazz gigs. For larger rock gigs, that stereo effect is completely lost and I just set up my rig for monitoring while my keyboard is going to the mains.
Just wait until you're set up at the gig, show up early and do a full power sound check by bringing a 20 foot cord and put your keyboard in the middle of the room if you can. The reason I say full power is amateurs try to do a sound check at easy listening low volume when nobody's in the room and that is false too. As soon as people come in the power goes up and everything changes. You need to crank it (albeit briefly of course!) and don't care if you bother the kitchen staff and waitresses. Once you've done this a couple of times your ears will get trained to the difference between what it sounds like on stage and what it sounds like out front and you can compensate for it.
The conclusion to this is no matter what you do, no matter how many different PA's you go through you will never get that killer full grand piano sound you get at home through your headphones or studio monitors. Just the nature of the beast. Try to remember some live concerts you went to where someone was playing a real grand piano. It's all mic'd up and going through the house system. Unless it's pure solo piano like Horowitz playing at Carnegie Hall someone playing with a full band in a noisy bar is losing all that fine, delicate piano sound as well even using a real grand on stage.
Bob
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