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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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BiaB overlays two common scale positions on the fretboard display: Aeolian and Phrygian. NOTE: do not confuse "modes" with "positions". A guitar scale "position" simply refers to the position of your hand, and has nothing to do with the diatonic mode of the scale you're playing. Having the positions visibly available for reference is a nice feature and all, but why are there only two positions? Guitarists tend to play diatonic scales in a few different ways:
- Scales that span 4 frets
- "3 note per string" scales (spanning more than 4 frets)
- Sliding scales (more than 3 notes per string)
There are, of course, other ways to play scales, but these methods are the most ergonomically simple to play, so they are the most common ways that books tend to teach people to play guitar. I tend to switch positions all over the place and I do not constrain myself to a certain area on the fretboard. BiaB's Aeolian and Phrygian positions fit into the first category, since they span 4 frets each. There are actually 5 possible positions that span 4 frets each for all diatonic scales. So, my question is: Why is BiaB limiting me to only two out of those five? I like to play in all positions on the guitar, not just two. For reference, the 5 positions that span 4 frets are:
- Dorian (starting on 2)
- Phrygian (starting on 3)
- Mixolydian (starting on 5)
- Aeolian (starting on 6)
- Locrian (starting on 7)
An ionian position (starting on 1) or a lydian position (starting on 4) would give you a 3-note-per-string scale instead of a 4-fret scale, which is why they are not included in the list above. Anyway... Is there any setting that will make BiaB show additional positions, or better yet, ALL positions at the same time? If not, let me know, and I will add this to the Wishlist forum. Thanks! TheSleeve
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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I know nothing about guitars but do know this: Check out PG`s brother, who laid down lots of the jazz realtracks. http://www.olivergannon.com/Click on biography. Maybe `they` will answer!
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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OP
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Thanks, John. I would love to hear from one of the Gannons!
My assumption is that those two positions are simply the most popular among jazz players, which might explain why they were selected. It would be nice, however, to have all positions available. I don't want to be boxed in!
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I would like that too ,be a good wishlist idea !
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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I don't fully understand. I can select any fret on the fretboard to play the melody notes in BIAB. It may not show the note names but will play in that position adn therefore use different figering patterns. Or maybe I don't get your point. I actually don't use BIAB to show me how to play the guitar, seems like that may be asking a little too much.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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PG Music Staff
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PG Music Staff
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As Jazzmandan points out, you can click on any fret, to get the position that you want. We only display note names in the 2 positions, but there is overlap so you will see some note names in all positions.
As an aside, in the '70s at Berklee (Boston), they taught us to play scales in 12 positions. For example, you can play a C scale in every fret position. A little funky, but a good exercise nonetheless.
Have Fun!
Peter Gannon
PG Music Inc.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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PG Music Staff
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>>>
For reference, the 5 positions that span 4 frets are:
Dorian (starting on 2)
Phrygian (starting on 3)
Mixolydian (starting on 5)
Aeolian (starting on 6)
Locrian (starting on 7)
-------------------
I think some people refer to those 5 positions as CAGED system, since they corrsepond to certain chords if played in Open position.
i.e.
C Phrygian (starting on 3)
A Mixolydian (starting on 5)
G Aeolian (starting on 6)
E Locrian (starting on 7)
D Dorian (starting on 2)
My thinking was, that if we show note names for all of them, the entire guitar would get lit up with note names, and it would be hard to see any scale patterns at all. So we just show 2 - Phrygian, Aolian.
Have Fun!
Peter Gannon
PG Music Inc.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Hi Peter and Jazzmandan,
Thanks very much for your thoughtful responses.
First of all, I had no idea that I could click on any fret to have BIAB use that position for playing the melody. Very interesting. I will be sure to make use of that feature.
Jazzmandan, I'm certainly not using BIAB to show me how to play guitar, but I like listening to, watching, and then emulating some of the more interesting soloists by looking directly at the fretboard view as they play. For the most part, the melodists tend to stick to only two positions and it has irked me a bit because I always wondered why other parts of the fretboard weren't fully utilized. Now that you taught me the way to manually switch positions, I'll be able to bypass that limitation and view the melody all over the fretboard as I see fit. So, thanks for the tip!
Peter, that's correct. The five 4-fret patterns are indeed the very same as the notorious CAGED system. Believe it or not, I had been playing guitar for a good 15 years (using mostly sheet music and my ears) before I had ever heard of this whole CAGED concept. It is, in a sense, a bit limiting... but for some guitarists, CAGED is their mantra from day one. So, if you don't mind, I'll go ahead make a request on the wishlist forum for the option to allow users to view more positions than just Aeolian and Phrygian. There's definitely an educational merit to having additional freedom in displaying those reference overlays.
You went to Berklee in the 70s? Cool! I went there in the 00s. I live across the river in Cambridge now. Things might have changed a bit over the years, but I think they still use a lot of the same theory textbooks have been staples since their early days.
By the way, I'm going to buy Oliver's Jazz Master Course sometime in the next few weeks. I've got a handle on the basics, and I really can't wait to learn some more advanced concepts!
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Wow, I'm somewhat flabbergasted.
I'm no guitar guy, and make fun of them when I can. I do the same with Romanian gypsy finnish speaking reindeer.
I'm glad you found common ground so to speak and I wish everyone would see the depth in this software. It's not for dummies, there are real people who've actually stood in the background of this product, and it's crazy good to see.
Onwards and upwards.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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PG Music Staff
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))) By the way, I'm going to buy Oliver's Jazz Master Course sometime in the next few weeks. I've got a handle on the basics, and I really can't wait to learn some more advanced concepts!
Cool! Oliver went to Berklee in the '60s, all 4 years and got a degree. Boston is a great city.
Have Fun!
Peter Gannon
PG Music Inc.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
By the way, I'm going to buy Oliver's Jazz Master Course sometime in the next few weeks. I've got a handle on the basics, and I really can't wait to learn some more advanced concepts!
You won't be disappointed. A super value there -- and something for most everyone, no matter what level they play at.
Have Fun,
--Mac
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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John,
Here's an interesting anecdote for you.
[anecdote]
Most non-guitarists realize that a single note can be played in several different positions on the neck.
What most non-guitarists don't realize (actually, most guitarists probably don't realize it either) is that each position has a significant difference in timbre, which is basically due to the thickness of each string being different, and the length of the string changing when the same note is played on different strings. This alters the harmonic content of the sound.
This is why guitarists have an extra layer of emotion that they can add onto their playing, if they care to explore it. You can play one phrase in one position on the guitar and it will sound a certain way. You can then move that phrase to a different position but play the exact same notes, rhythm, expression, etc... and you will get something that sounds totally different. ...at least to my ears.
That's why being able to play any note / scale / chord in any position on the guitar is important. It opens up a world of sonic and emotional possibilities.
An extension of this is seen in some styles of "flatpicking", where the same note is played over and over in rapid succession, but on alternating strings. A non-guitarist would look at the sheet music for this and just see the same note in rapid succession... Boring! However, if the guitarist plays alternating notes on alternating strings, the tonal qualities of the sound will change, even though the pitch is exactly the same. Listening to that kind of playing... even a non-guitarist can tell that something cool is happening!
It's kind of like if you sat a tuba and a trombone next to each other and played alternating eighth notes back and forth between the instruments.
[/anecdote]
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A tuba and a baritone (both conical bore, different register) might be a better comparison? But, that's a very good point about all the choice a guitarist has for each note. Thanks for the explanation.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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Quote:
.. a tuba and a trombone next to each other and played alternating eighth notes back and forth between the instruments.
Now that would be a concert 
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Ask John Conley. He performs them!
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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I played assistant prof. this fall for a music appreciation class.
This was due to several factors:
1. The Doc who teaches it leads one of the bands I play in.
2. It was on my bucket list.
and there I was with 105 17 yr. old first year students. Wow. Classes were Mon. Wed. Fri. 12:30 to 1:30.
I got to explain chordophones, using a piano as an example, but did look at strings and I brought some digital photos of string winders in the piano tech department. Interesting subject.
As to lip vibrated aerophones I'm now doing that in 3 bands. Brute for punishment eh?
I know lots about guitars because my first girlfriend played the 12 sting, so on that baby you have more chances to make notes with adjacent strings. She also taught me a lot of the french I know.
I'm enjoying the concert band I'm playing in. We practise on Tuesdays 2 to 4, but have a concert every other Tuesday in some Nursing Home or Hospital.
I love playing the baritone. Most of the guys get a bit snobby and have to buy some compensating valve euphonium. Mine are more like a tenorhorn, but not like a horn horn or Eb.
If that makes any sense.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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I say that "the sleeve" speaks a basic truth up there. Much more than an anecdote IMO.
And said very well, I might add.
The same note can indeed be played in different positions on different strings. The string gauge plus the fretted length of string work together to make that "same" note sound a bit different due to the overtone series imparted by the differing parameters.
In other words, the Timbre of the note will be different, even though the Fundamental is the same.
--Mac
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And don't forget the nuances of a pick versus a finger nail versus the pad of the thumb... and the pickups(neck versus bridge) and position where the string is struck (high or low over the sound hole) and dare I even suggest that an upward or downward pick direction, the muting of strings with either left or right hand can impact the sound. In the hands of a master the sounds can be rich indeed!
Dan, BIAB2024, SoundCloud Win11, i7(12thGen), 32GB, 1TB SSD(M.2 NVMe SSD), 2TB Libraries, 1 TB(WD-Black), 2TB SSD(M.2 NVMe SSD)Data, Motu Audio Express, Keystation 61, SL88 Studio, Reaper
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Quote:
(PG-->)
I think some people refer to those 5 positions as CAGED system, since they corrsepond to certain chords if played in Open position.
For those interested, this was one of the first bibles of the CAGED system:
And the great fingerstyle guitar player Ernie Hawkins has a whole series of DVDs on it:
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The actual CAGED system may just be a bit older than those books, for example, I first heard of it via Tal Farlow, who called it, "Scaling from Chord Patterns" as an example of how he solo'd in jazz. Then I became aware of quite a few guitarists "back in the day" who thought in that fashion, "CAGED". I think that it is important to emphasize that this system is just another way of thinking about the same things and that there are also other approaches.
Anyway, it was the beginning for me of identifying exactly the scale steps involved in each and every chord pattern played and then working out the fingering for the missing scales steps in between. As it turned out, it was perhaps not the shortcut that it lookied to be, *grin* but it most certainly was a great tool in the eventual total mapping of the neck for me.
As with so many things musical, this one is a matter of perception. If the CAGED system helps you to perceive the thing more easily, that's good, man.
--Mac
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
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Update Your PowerTracks Pro Audio 2024 Today!
The Newest RealBand 2024 Update is Here!
The newest RealBand 2024 Build 5 update is now available!
Download and install this to your RealBand 2024 for updated print options, streamlined loading and saving of .SGU & MGU (BB) files, and to add a number of program adjustments that address user-reported bugs and concerns.
This free update is available to all RealBand 2024 users. To learn more about this update and download it, head to www.pgmusic.com/support.realband.htm#20245
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A few excerpts:
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Thank you to everyone who has contributed!
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