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Blake and Beachboy explained it.
When you sync to an external unit it's easy; use a MIDI cable.
But how do you connect a MIDI cable inside the computer from one program to another??
Use LoopBe or similar. It's what it is designed for.


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Hi rharv,
sorry, maybe I didn't put my question well.

I actually have my XG works pc sequencer & biab midied via a virtual midi cable, and they stay in sync when I press play in Band in a Box. I was sort of under the impression that if something ( keyboard or sequencer ) sent out midi clock, and the other unit was able to receive midi clock, that was syncing??


Maybe I better reread the whole thread, as somewhere along the line, I've gotten lost. haahaa

Quote:

Blake and Beachboy explained it.
When you sync to an external unit it's easy; use a MIDI cable.
But how do you connect a MIDI cable inside the computer from one program to another??
Use LoopBe or similar. It's what it is designed for.




best wishes
rikki

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There is some info here:
http://www.pgmusic.com/techfaq27.htm#43

Band-in-a-Box will send some sync info, if you go to Opt. | Preferences | MIDI Options, and check "Output Sync/Start info". It will send MIDI clock, and song start/stop messages. It doesn't send MIDI Time Code, and you can't use it as a slave (i.e. it won't respond to sync info from another MIDI device). RealBand on the other hand has more advanced MIDI sync capabilities.


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Thank you for the link Andrew.


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Andrew,

Thank you for the informative link.

I admit, I'm one of the user that never delved into "Real Band". Thats because after the sequence is generated, I use an external DAW for further production. I know very little about features and capabilities of Real Band. I know that I can take a generated sequence using Real Track into Real Band, but I've never tried it.

I still need to expand my knowledge on Real Band "how to" but, now that I know Real Band can send Midi Time Code, I have a renewed incentive to learn Real Band. Since it has many more tracks than BIAB, AND MTC capable, I'm thinking that adding more instruments might be easier in Real Band. Right ??

For example, If I want to create an 8 piece band plus solos, it can be done in Real band . . . even edit each track. Once all the instruments are in one Real Band file, using the MTC capability, I can digitally record into my DAW using MTC sync . . . two tracks at a time. Hmmm . . . That means I just might have to spend $199 to replace my burnt out MOTU card so I can transfer 16 tracks in one playback.

I'm going to have to spend some time watching Real Band video tutorials.
Are all the latest Real Band video tutorials available on-line ??
I ordered the Plus-Pak 2012 on HD this time WITHOUT the latest video tutorials, to save $20 on the price.

Looks like I've got some experimenting to do . . . as well as learning the new features in 2012.

Ed

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The only downside to doing what you want is if you create a lot of Real Tracks. The RT generation in Real Band is way slower than it is in Biab. If you're only doing one or just short snippents like 8 bars or something like that, then RB is great. Otherwise it may be faster to create the RT's in Biab first, then D & D them into RB.

Bob


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I own Cubase, and can't think of a reason to sync the two. My workflow is as follows:
1. Create a test song in BIAB for the purpose of reviewing styles.
2. Once I've picked one or more styles, I develop a rough arrangement (chords).
3. I save the song in BIAB and open it in RealBand.
4. I carefully check the tempo and arrangement and make changes as needed.
5. I add tracks using various styles as needed to augment what I started with. This includes different rhythm parts, soloists, etc.
6. Once I get things more or less the way I want them I export all the audio (and MIDI if applicable) to WAV files and import them into Cubase.
7. From that point on, Cubase is the master. Before I do too much more work, I make sure that the tempo on Cubase matches the Realband project.

With this technique, I can add vocals and other tracks, but can go back to Realband and generate new Realtracks or drum tracks, tweaking shots and breaks and such as needed. All the tracks match up when I re-import them into Cubase.

I've produced my last two records (for other clients) this way, and it is a really nice workflow. BIAB/Realband make it really fast to rough things out, check tempos, keys, block arrangements, and give the talent something to sing to.

I have a few things I wish it would do - forget about getting the excellent musicians in Realband/BIAB to play a lick with you. If you are lucky you can get the drummer to accent something the way you do. And don't get me started on endings.

On the other hand, the Realtracks are pretty amazing if you don't ask them to do too much (like stretch the tempo too far or play wacky changes.)

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Bob Merrill,

I pretty much do the same. Since I don't use a computer based DAW, D&D is not available to me. My DAW is two Roland VS2480, a stand alone DAW. I have a set up where I can digitally transfer 16 tracks at once if I upgrade my MOTU card that is compatible with dual-core CPU. I haven't done this because BIAB is not MTC or SMPTE capable.

Please keep in mind that I am NOT a Real Band user. I didn't see a need to get into it until now. I am a bit concerned with the "regeneration time" with Real Band.

My understanding about Real Band was that once the tracks (instruments) are in RB, there is no re-gen time required. I guess I've been misinformed.

Once in RB, I would want each track to play exactly the same. In other words, I'd have 2 or more "guitar" tracks from BIAB in RB so I can edit and comp one finished "guitar" track. This is specially true when comping a solo part. I'm sure you know how much work is required to come up with a solo that actually plays like the way you'd want a solo to sound like.

It sounds like I need to export each track from BIAB as WAV. file into RB to eliminate long re-gen time. For me I would not want the playback change every time I press play. Once the 5 piece band is transferred using MTC from RB into my DAW, I can change all the instruments to the same real track within a specified bars to play all solos, thus creating 4 different solo takes at once. Replay each track to audition, then edit and comp a finished solo part in RB AND I can listen "IN CONTEXT" in rel time because MTC generated from RB is syncing my DAW's playback. To audition new instrument, I just have to load an all MIDI style (MIDI style regenerates much faster), solo 1 track, and assign a new Real Track to the soloed track, then press play. The new instrument can be heard "in context" since the DAW is "synced" to RB.

I'm thinking that this is how my workflow will proceed. If someone knows otherwise, please chime in.

Bob, do you have any of your work posted somewhere? Since you are using BIAB for clients like myself, I would love to hear your work.

Here are 9 BIAB tracks from my client's CD that was released last month.

Link to 9 BIAB SONGS

I would love to hear what you think of them, specially we provide service using BIAB.

Thanks
Ed Layola

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Hi Ed,

Great work with the songs.

Regarding Realband where you said...
Quote:

My understanding about Real Band was that once the tracks (instruments) are in RB, there is no re-gen time required


Whenever a track has to be generated, as I'm sure you're aware, it requires samples of pre-recorded files to be sliced up, rearranged and compiled to create a track that conforms with the chord progression that a user has put in. This will always require computer time to accomplish. Maybe the person who misled you was talking about loading a song back into RB that had been saved as an SEQ file. Since this is a complete file, and regeneration of the tracks is not required, the song will play much quicker.

As I understand it, Realband and BIAB both take about the same amount of time regenerate a track. A BIG difference though, is that BIAB begins playing before regeneration is complete and the remaining regeneration is accomplished as a background process. RB, on the other hand, fully completes regeneration before commencing playback.

Hope this information is of use,
Noel


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Ed,

I listened to most of the songs you have posted. Collectively they showcase your singing and songwriting talent, BIAB, and your production skills. If I am correct in understanding that any parts not specifically credited to a particular player were generated in BIAB, I'm blown away. I am referring specifically to a sax solo and a Mark Knopfler-like guitar solo in two separate pieces.

If BIAB can produce a sax line like that, I'm going to have to take another look at Real Tracks. There is hope for a piece I've had on the shelf while I waited for the right player to show up. Until now I have restricted myself to MIDI and live players (with the exception of a Real Tracks trombone solo on one 40s-style jazz tune.) Much food for thought here.


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Wait a second. In the steps you are talking about why the concern about regeneration times? We are talking a few seconds. And once you have something to work with you freeze it.

My computer is not the latest greatest or best but I don't see an issue there at all. NOW, if you load up RealTracks with 8 Realinstruments and leave them all to regenerate each time, sure, you are going to end up with 20 seconds where you wring your hands.

As to what gear to use, I knew a guy here with one of those, he was too important for we the great unwashed. Alas he bought an apple computer and his 'baby' sat in one of the gear stores, he was trying to get 900 bucks for it.

I certainly don't understand having RealBand, then saying I don't use it due to some concern.\\
I have it, have used it, and mostly don't.

That's because I love to practice 50 random pieces a day and no one needs a 'DAW' to loop Satin Doll.


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Noel,

Thanks for listening to my work.

At one time, I got the wrong impression that when you open a BIAB file in RB, the tracks were "frozen" thus re-gen was not required. The same person, I think, also told me that NEITHER BIAB or RB was not sync capable. So I had some wrong ideas about RB in general.

What I want to do is generate Real Track instrument in BIAB. Once I have a track that I like, I would export that instrument as WAV. file and import it into RB. Please understand that my experience with RB is nearly zero. In reality I need to spend some time exploring RB to find out what it can do for me in particular. Just knowing that RB is MTC capable makes me very happy. Once I get into RB, I'll be asking some questions in this forum.

________________
Ryszard,

Thanks for listening. By the way, its my client who is the singer/songwriter. I'm his producer. His 10 song CD generated about $5000 for me in 2011. BIAB is a great investment.

I have used BIAB for clients in the all MIDI days. But I always "groove quantized" all my MIDI sequences in Sonar, then digitally recorded the sound module's output into my Roland DAW. Actually, the second track "Someone to Love" is all MIDI with "groove quantize" on them.

When REAL TRACKS came along, I was blown away with the sound. I can't wait for my 2012 to arrive. Bunch more Real Tracks and some cool new features.

That said . . . things are not quite as automatic as PG Music would want us to believe . . . specially when generating a SOLOS. The first thing you will find out is that there are too few "solist" Real Tracks to choose from. What I did was to recommend styles (2 or 3 at most) to my client knowing that these have usable "soloist" Real Tracks I can use.

It takes some work to generate solos that are good enough for me. The particular sax solo you mentioned started with about a dozen "takes" from BIAB recorded into my DAW. Once in the DAW, I comped the parts I liked down to the finished solo. Before I get something I liked well enough to keep as a "take", I must have re-generated and listened to half a dozen re-gens. All this takes time and patience. All the solos were "created" in a similar manner. BIAB, IMO is very versatile tool ever since Real Tracks were introduced.

Now . . . If they can come out with Joe Satriani RT guitar, or Larry Carlton RT guitar would be cool as hell !

I have a lot of experimenting to do.

Thanks
Ed

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Quote:


At one time, I got the wrong impression that when you open a BIAB file in RB, the tracks were "frozen" thus re-gen was not required. The same person, I think, also told me that NEITHER BIAB or RB was not sync capable. So I had some wrong ideas about RB in general.




You don't have the wrong impression, Ed, that is exactly what happens. The parts will be laid out on separate tracks, just as if you ahd recorded them in the sequencer. The parts will not change with each hit of the Play button as they would in BB unless the songe was intentionally "frozen". No need for that in RB since the Tracks themselves stick with what was imported unless you tell it otherwise.

RB also has the ability to generate new tracks, either of the same instrument (realtrack) and a new performance, or generate new instruments that follow the chords as well.


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I've watched a 'major' player do takes for a solo to be part of an indie soundtrack. I happened to be in the 'big' PA store here, the one with the stages that are trailers and the stacks and stacks of PA gear big bands use. Their studio is in the back of the 2nd floor. Some recording guys from Toronto met this guy from Montreal. Sax player.

The spent all day for 30 seconds of material. About 6 hours studio time. Figure it out. Fly the guy in and back. A whole day to organize the studio. One of those 120 some channel boards with 3 guys in a booth. Catered lunches. I got there at 2, they locked the front door and gave me an adult beverage.

So if software can sort of duplicate that process then shazam, yer onto something.


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[quote]
Here are 9 BIAB tracks from my client's CD that was released last month.

Link to 9 BIAB SONGS

I would love to hear what you think of them, specially we provide service using BIAB.

Thanks
Ed Layola [/quote]

Excelent musical and audio production Ed! Glad to know you are using Band-in-a-Box, RB and RT. It make a undeniably added value to your outstanding professional skills and talent.

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Quote:

So if software can sort of duplicate that process then shazam, yer onto something




John,

Yeh, when BIAB can give you an adult beverage you're really onto something. Me, I'm waiting for Groupies-in-a-Box.


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Carlos, thank you for your kind words.

After more than 30 years in studio and live sound, I've seen a lot. When it comes to recording in the studio, studio owners like myself, loves disorganized artists and producers. Back in the analog days, before BIAB was invented, the going price for a 1" 16 track project studio around here was around $15 to $40 per hour with an engineer. Most of the studio clients were for local demo projects. Lot of the clients were young amateur musicians. They never rehearse well enough to be truly ready to record, or they just are not good musicians.

Even today, things have not changed much. Even seasoned local musicians that come into the studio to do solos are mostly "live" players. "LIVE" . . . you can get away with a lot. In the studio, you need to "WRITE" the solo . . . you just can't "wing it" unless you're Eric Clapton. Once the solo is "written" AND WELL REHEARSED, then its finally time to do it in the studio. I stopped counting many years ago, how many times I had to teach or explain someone "how to" write a solo.

Before I take on a project I always listen to a "boom box" recording of their rehearsal. That tells me more about the band than anything else. In the last few years I've told a number of bands that they are not ready to record in a studio.

The last band I turned down was a group of college kids that "jammed" together a lot. Since their songs were pretty simple, I fired up BIAB, entered the chords, picked a "style" that was similar to their song and I pressed play while I said "You guys need to be pretty close to how tight this is". Jaws dropped . . . followed by their silent stare at each other. When I played the guitar solo I generated with a few key press . . . the guitar player walked out of the control room shaking his head.

BIAB kind of leaves any amateur musicians in the dust. A decent local band I recorded wanted to hire a guitarist to do the solo. As usual he didn't have anything written for his 12 bar solo. After 6 hours and 12 keep-able takes, we had a couple of solos that was acceptable. Not great, just acceptable. That was $240 in studio time plus $200 the player got paid. I was not impressed.

Since the song was played to a click track, I generated a guitar solo in BIAB. A couple of places, the generated solo wasn't quite "in time" with the rest of the band. I saved the solo as a WAV file and imported it into Ableton Live. I tweaked a few places for timing and imported the finished solo into my DAW. Did it in less than 3 hours. When I played the song for the band leader . . . he was blown away.

BIAB is a great tool to write solos. Its usually easy enough to learn for a decent player.

BIAB if just GREAT in a studio environment !

Thanks
Ed

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The software has been customer driven.

The purpose was to provide backing tracks like any music minus one program.

The evolution has been driven by the wishlist.

You can, if you want, generate hundreds of guitar parts from a chord sequence, and take them all and import them to your DAW. But now it seems the purpose is the sync the program, so it plays but sends a code to some product AVID makes and the two make a movie based on the time code? Sorry, but to be blunt I plain don't get it.

How is the Band in a Box driving some other software with realtime codes to sync stuff?

Why?

This, to my mind, has not been addressed. To say that every person on earth is blue except you and you need to conform, that's nice, but WHY? What is going to be earth shaking.

So far this week I've learned again that nothing in the music world that counts is done unless it is on a Mac, and if Band in a Box would only realize that and become totally MAC then they would be rich and buying yachts and hiring computer support people in a remote Indian village where Hindu customs mean we are closed today.

Now I've learned that the former is untrue because M. Yoda has pointed out that the whole universe has time code and Band in a Box can sell to every major studio in the whole Milky Way as we know it if they just...did x. Righto. I get it. Forget the wish list. The producers version with time code is out and for a mere 20,000 dollars a studio gets all of Band in a Box 13. Ha.

Please explain how this works, and what is the best way to make Band in a Box drive some other software and I'm buying it. Maybe if the box is pretty I'll get two. Gee, even right here in my sad studio I have 5 boxes that say Band in a Box, along with that GPO thing and the Sibelius 7 Mac made me buy. Golly.


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John Conley,

I understand your general point of view. Why "sync" capability . . . ??

For users with "studio-in-my-computer" set up, in a room with computer speakers or low end monitors, "sync" capability is probably not needed.

The "sync" capability is how a music software "plays nice" with the rest of the world. Commercial studio owners, engineers and producers are creatures of habit. This is true for a small commercial project studio like mine or a much larger studios catering to large record labels. It doesn't matter if the DAW is Pro Tools on a Mac or Cubase on a PC. I can take my laptop and my BIAB on the Audiofile HD to ANY studio and I can "play nice" with whats there. All I need is some digital input into the studio system.

Please understand that at a commercial level, only the raw instrument tracks without effects or dynamics are needed. Effects and dynamic processing is one of the many tools used in the mixing process. This is why I take the instrument track from BIAB into DAW separately. This is where "sync capability" is desirable. If BIAB was sync capable, I just have to solo 2 instruments, pan one full left and the other full right, arm my DAW to record, press play on BIAB and the DAW will record "in sync". It doesn't matter if the DAW is Pro Tools on a Mac or a stand alone DAW like my Roland VS2480.

As I said, we are creatures of habit. Mixing on my DAW makes everything in my studio available for use during mixing. If an engineer is a Pro Tools user, he is going to mix on Pro Tools. If he is a Cubase user, he is going to mix on Cubase.

The point is, BIAB with Real Tracks and Real Drums have evolved into a very commercially usable software. The ability to "sync" with existing set up is a must if BIAB is going to be embraced in the commercial environment.

I am very excited that guitar Real Tracks have Direct Input recording in 2012. This gives studio owners more creative choices. Now I can use the various guitar effects modules and patches I have. After I have the DI track in my DAW, I can digitally insert my Digi Tech multi effects pedal during mix ! VERY COOL !

When mixing, there is a reason why I have 16 stereo multi-effects and dynamics on each channel available. Not to mention some effects units from Lexicon, TC Electronics, Roland etc.

Its time for BIAB to come out of the closet and join the rest of the audio world.

Ed

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But that's my point, and you made it. The point was to have a Band

down

down

In a box.

To play along with.

If you can convince them via the wishlist how to do this and make cash or run the space shuttle program in russia, more the power to you.

Peter gave an eloquent dissertation on midi in the wishlist. It should be read when you post what you think is the solution to all their dreams.

I've given into the need for narcotics again, and I'll be a kinder more gentle moron soon. My doctor gave me permission...


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The new Band-in-a-Box VST DAW Plugin Verion 6 adds over 20 new features!

Watch the new features video to learn more: Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2024 - DAW Plugin Version 6 New Features

We also list these new features at www.pgmusic.com/bbwin.plugin.htm.

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