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IO users:
I would like to know from USERS of Garritan IO if you wanted to lay down strings behind a combo (piano, bass, guitar, jazz kit) piece for the slower, softer and/or "brazil" motif standards (ala Krall) such as "I've Grown Accustomed To Her (his) Face ", "I've got you Under my Skin", "I Remember You", "Where or When", etc. COULD Garritan IO even get close to the strings, and maybe even the winds, for those arrangements? Or is IO more for arranging Hollywood type scores or actual classical orchestrations.
Just asking
Thanks
Larry
Win10Pro,i9,64GB,2TBSSD+20TBHDDs,1080TI,BIAB'24,Scarlett18i8,Montage7,Fusion 8HD,QS8,Integra7,XV5080,QSR,SC-8850,SPLAT,FL21&others,Komp.14,IK suite&others, just a guitar player-AXE FX III &FM9T, FishmanTP, MIDIGuitar2, GK2/3'sw/GI20
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I have GPO not Garritan Instant Orchestra. I'm very pleased with the sounds I get. If you take time to tweak the MIDI, their samples seem to be layered enough to provide many of the sounds that are possible from stringed instruments.
You can use CCs to create string swells, changes in velocity to change the attack etc.
The Aria player also has some built-in controls that are very useful without having to resort to CCs... for example, you can control sustain, reverb and a bunch of other thigs (I'm not at my music computer at the moment or I'd open it up and give you a real rundown)
I use Bach's prelude in G major as a benchmark for strings, because it is a very expressive piece with a lot of nuance if its played well. I tried it with a bunch of string sound fonts, my Roland hardware synth, Coyote forte and some GM soundfonts. The strings in GPO got closer to the sound I was looking for than any of the others
As always, your mileage may vary. I'm a hobbyist, not a pro, so what sounds good to me might be totally unacceptable to somebody with more discerning ears.
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Pat
Thanks (and "You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din!"). I also have GPO and JABB (as well as scores of other SW modules/soft synths), plus a ton of external gear: more than I have ever actually been capable of effectively using at anywhere near max potential.
Using one patch at a time or just picking a good combo "mix" of upright string bass, piano/vibes (I love vibes), or Rhodes, and Kit etc. I can do that. However, I am NOT an arranger/orchestrator so layering more than a few discreet instruments into a "combo" is one thing but putting together/layering a GOOD string section, or woodwind section has always eluded me so I'm looking to see if maybe Garritan IO might get me more in the ballpark. But I'm not as fast to just buy stuff as I was so am asking around first and poking around on the WWW for actual sound demos, you tube(aligation)- etc.
Larry
Win10Pro,i9,64GB,2TBSSD+20TBHDDs,1080TI,BIAB'24,Scarlett18i8,Montage7,Fusion 8HD,QS8,Integra7,XV5080,QSR,SC-8850,SPLAT,FL21&others,Komp.14,IK suite&others, just a guitar player-AXE FX III &FM9T, FishmanTP, MIDIGuitar2, GK2/3'sw/GI20
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Hi Larry, One of the reasons that putting together a good string section can be elusive is because string parts (and also woodwind ensembles) are often written from a classical harmony perspective (i.e. counterpoint; 3-, 4- or 5-part harmony; etc.). My experience is that it's the texture of the harmony that is a large contributor to the authentic quality of the sound. To play a single chord in piano style doesn't always do orchestral ensembles justice, although often as padding no one notices the difference. I personally prefer Dimension Pro 1.5. I recently purchased it as an upgrade from Dimension Pro LE for $49 and it's brilliant. I'm amazed at both the quantity and quality of instruments that the program has. Here's a bit of a 4-part arrangement that I've just done as a reply to this post. You'll probably need to right-click on the link and "save" it. ... link to a snippet of Danny Boy in 4-part harmony - String Ensemble (550 KB)The link below is exactly the same arrangement but with woodwinds from Garritan Pocket Orchestra. ... link to a snippet of Danny Boy in 4-part harmony - Woodwind Ensemble (550 KB)ARRANGEMENT NOTES
- Track 1: 1st Violins (Oboe)
- Track 2: 1st Violins 8va higher (Flute 8va higher, same melody as oboe)
- Track 3: 2nd Violins (Clarinet)
- Track 4: Violas (Clarinet)
- Track 5: Cello (Bassoon)
- Track 6: Double Bass - same notes as Cello but 8va lower (not used in woodwind ensemble)
What you hear is exactly as it came from the MIDI. I have not played around with the sound at all. There's room for improvement (such as changing note attacks, individual volumes, tone, etc.) but I thought you might like to hear the raw product. The MIDI file was assembled in Reaper and rendered as a WAV. I converted it to mp3 using Free Audio Converter. The image below shows about three-quarters of the strings that are available in Dimension Pro 1.5. There are whole heap of other instruments, too.  This second image shows the different families of instrument. As you can see, GPO is part of these (#24).  Regards, Noel Edit: added second image
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Noel - for comparison purposes, could you post a version with GPO?
Thanks!
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Hi David, That's a good point. I'm on to it! .... here's a link to the arrangement using GPO strings.I used ... - Track 1: Violins Long Bows
- Track 1: Violins Long Bows - 8va higher
- Track 1: Violas Long Bows
- Track 1: Violas Long Bows
- Track 1: Cellos Long Bows
- Track 6: Basses Long Bows - same melody as cellos but 8va lower
I made a single change only to each of the instruments. I didn't like the initial note attack of the long bowing so I modified it from ...  ... to ...  Hope the information is useful! Noel
Last edited by Noel96; 07/08/12 05:43 AM.
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2024
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All of those demos sound pretty good... but don't forget, Noel said that none of these samples were tweaked at all! It's generally true that tweaked MIDI can get you closer to a realistic sound than raw MIDI.
Regarding the arrangement of the strings: BIABs harmonizer has so many different types of harmonies that a person would have a long way to go before exhausting the potential for creating string sections that way.
Bottom line (IMO): the perfect MIDI sound isn't something you can buy off the shelf (although the sounds available keep getting better and better.) Without taking time to add the nuance and expression with continuous controllers you will always have to settle for a sound that is less expressive than it COULD be.
I see this as part of the tradeoff that comes as a result of automation. On the upside, we can now assemble complex songs fairly quickly, without having to play all the instruments. On the downside, the skill set of playing all the instruments is replaced by the new skill sets of tweaking the MIDI, mixing the tracks, and developing an ear for what works in a COMPOSITION and what doesn't.
GPO was purchased during a special price offering not long ago. It has impressed me sufficiently that I'm hoping the new owner will offer special pricing on some other products.
Maybe we'll eventually see some string real tracks that come with all the nuance intact... but I'm not sure how that would work considering the fact that the expression in string parts is highly dependent on the mood of the song. Seems like it would be very hard to make string real tracks that were generic enough to fit the mood of many songs.
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got to admit that the raw dimension pro snippet sounded better than the raw GPO version. But I think that Garritan assumed people would tweak, and that's why the ARIA player has the features it has. What's better about the dimension pro version could be accomplished with tweaked Garritan. I'd like to hear how good tweaked Dimension Pro can sound! (Curse you Noel, you may have just caused me to spend the money I was saving for the 2012.5 update!) 
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I am not really satisfied with my midi string arrangements either. I know the panning scheme for an orchestra but getting more realistic nuances is my goal. I just purchased this book “ Acoustic and midi orchestration for the comtemporary composer “from Amazon. I have just started to read it but it looks like what I’m looking for. That is what CCs to use for nuances, how and when to alternate bow movement etc. Give it a look and see if you think it might help you. Note that there are a number of books on Midi orchestration so you may want to look at more than this one. This is just the one that I thought was the best for me.
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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Quote:
I am not really satisfied with my midi string arrangements either. I know the panning scheme for an orchestra but getting more realistic nuances is my goal. I just purchased this book “ Acoustic and midi orchestration for the comtemporary composer “from Amazon. I have just started to read it but it looks like what I’m looking for. That is what CCs to use for nuances, how and when to alternate bow movement etc. Give it a look and see if you think it might help you.
Note that there are a number of books on Midi orchestration so you may want to look at more than this one. This is just the one that I thought was the best for me.
Sounds like an interesting book Mario!
(Man, y'all are really out to make me spend my stash, aren't ya??)
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Hi Mario, That book looks good. Thank you for the tip. I don't know if you're interested but if you want to get a feel for the 4-part harmony sound of ensembles, below is a link to Bach's Chorales. http://www.jsbchorales.net/index.shtmlThese chorales are essentially the definitive works on 4-part harmony that laid the ground rules for today's classical harmony and orchestration. He was a clever man, Mr Bach. The midi files at this site look interesting. I've just loaded one into Reaper and set appropriate instruments. All looks good. Regards, Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2024
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Hi Noel, thanx for the link.
Many years ago I had to study 4-part harmony for my music theory class. It is time for a refresher course!
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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Noel, Thanks for the side by side comparisons of Dimension Pro and Garritan. I've been waiting for Garritan to sell for $99 again with the intent of buying several libraries at that price. I had never looked into Dimension Pro until now, but at its current price of $99 for new buyers and $49 for owners of LE, it looks like a very good bang for the buck. http://www.store.cakewalk.com/b2cus/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=10-CWDM1.50-30EI used online comparison shopping sites to look for a better price. Everybody but Cakewalk is selling Dimension Pro for a much higher price... so this $99/$49 price may not last. the price on other sites: http://studentdiscounts.com/cakewalkdimensionpromacosxwinxp.aspxhttp://www.amazon.com/CAKEWALK-Dimension...k+dimension+proI notice that Dimension Pro also has some WORLD instruments included. That would be a separate purchase with Garritan. So, my mind is made up. I'm going to buy and DL Dimension Pro right now at a price I consider to be a no brainer. Thanks again for the heads up Noel! You are a real value adder to this forum!
Last edited by Pat Marr; 07/08/12 02:10 PM.
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Thanks for posting the example! To me, the GPO strings example sounds fuller, while the Dimension Pro sounds a bit more synthetic and chorused. On the other hand, DP has a nice bite in the attack. The DP woodwinds seem a bit more live and "in your face" than the GPO, in a good way. In comparison, the GPO woodwinds are a bit "sweeter". Here's an (overly fussy) instrumental arrangement I did using GPO: In the Day of the Lord. I imported this into Finale NotePad, and used the Human Playback option. Edit: I had another look at the file - there's quite a bit of editing, using Finale's "Human Playback" option, so I've corrected my comment about not doing much editing.  For comparison, here's a version done with the Miroslav library, although it's also been run through EZMix as well, so it's not the "stock" sound.
Last edited by dcuny; 07/08/12 12:54 PM.
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David,
both of the samples you posted sound great to me... to my ears the GPO sounded more realistic, but the Miroslav sounded smoother, with the notes swelling rather than triggering abruptly.
But, especially with the flutes, the swelling didn't work as well for me as the "toot". In fact, I bought the GPO after hearing a song you posted that had very realistic flute in it.
What I liked about the Dimension Pro strings was the way they eased into the note. That's an effect that I normally have to create with CCs, and there it was, part of the stock patch!
Its a commonly stated point that one sound module or library has a great XXX instrument, while another has a great YYY instrument. I figure I'll like some patches from one and some from another.
And, I have to suspect (there's the cynic in me coming out again) that the Garritan POCKET orchestra that's included with Dimension Pro is not the same as Garritan Personal Orchestra. If it were, they'd never sell any Garritan, because it would be cheaper to get Dimension Pro which would include Personal Orchestra plus a lot of other sounds too.
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I've got GPO Pocket - it's a pretty good deal, especially if you get it on sale. I picked it up because my son was fiddling around with MIDI, and they included a SoundFont version as well. Pocket has a lot less instruments than GPO. For example, Pocket has one Legato violin. GPO has 9 "player" violins if you want to build sections, and 3 "solo" violins built up of the best "player" samples. Pocket only has 4 brass instruments (legato french horn, trombone, trumpet and tuba)... and so on. Pocket also has a lot less articulations - most of the instruments are limited to legato phrasing. The strings are an exception - they've got legato, pizzicato and tremolo. The string sections support short and long bows as well as legato, pizzicato and tremolo. As you've noted, it's always helpful to have multiple instruments. Combining two sample libraries can give you the best of both worlds, especially when you're building a string section. I'll also confess the GPO flute was one of the things that sold me on the library. I've just put together some mockups for a friend using the flute on the vocal part (and BiaB doing most of the rest), and she loves that flute sound. I hope she feels the same about the tracks once the vocals are on it instead.
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Hi David, Firstly, congrats on a very tasteful arrangements of "In The Day Of The Lord". My personal faavourite was the Miroslav. I thought that this had a more authentic small-ensemble sound; at least it was easier for me to see the ensemble in my head as I listened. I think Pat put it best when he said, Quote:
Its a commonly stated point that one sound module or library has a great XXX instrument, while another has a great YYY instrument.
You should post more of your work! It's good 
All the best,
Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2024
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Quote:
Firstly, congrats on a very tasteful arrangements of "In The Day Of The Lord".
Thanks!
It's still a struggle to figure out what a string arrangement "should" sound like. It's not really SATB writing (although it can be), but more of passing the ideas around through the various instruments (and pairing) so it's not static an boring.
My usual instrumental writing process is to write the bass and inner parts as half or quarter notes. I'll then go back and add passing notes, with an eye toward rhythmic or melodic imitation. Then I'll go back again and start stripping stuff out, trying to make sure that only one part has focus at any one time.
This is very much an iterative process, because I'm not particularly good at hearing stuff in my head. Thank goodness for music notation software to help refine things. Noteflight is my favorite music notation program, because it's a good match to how I think. I've used other programs (Finale NotePad, Notion, MuseScore), and I just can't think like they do. (One of these days, I'll finish writing my own music notation program, but that's probably going to take a couple more years.)
I really like BIAB's mouse entry system. If I've just got a melodic line to enter from sheet music, I'll do that in BIAB, because it's fast. It's too bad BIAB doesn't support MusicXML export (yet).
Once I've got the notes worked out, I'll them export it as MusicXML and import into Finale NotePad because the "Human Playback" does a really nice job, especially when adding things like trills and ritards.
I'll then export that as MIDI into Reaper, again because that fits my workflow. I just can't seem to get the hang of RealBand - it's probably misconfigured, because it seems slow and unstable on my machine. That's too bad, because being able to regenerate only a portion of a RealTrack is really slick. Then again, I'll usually slice-and-dice together several phrases when creating a solo, and then micro-edit that by changing the pitch and duration of notes, so importing a bunch of variations int Reaper makes more sense for me. More often than not, I'll grab portions of a phrase from an entirely different section of the song because it fits the melodic contour better, and pitch shift if necessary.
Much like having multiple sample libraries, having multiple tools is good as well.
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Noel
DP is very good - I already own it, and a few of the add-on libs, and I can recommend it. Sonar is, and has been, my DAW for a long time. Sonar X1 Producer has DP bundled in but I have used DP since it first came out, around version 7 of Sonar.
Glad you did this response, especially for folks not familiar with DP (and those are good demos BTW - David, Noel!).
For others - Is DP worth $49 upgrade? YES, and IMHO it's even worth the full price of $99! DP is a fairly complete SS library and has more breadth, and in a some cases more depth, than Garritan libraries.
My problem, as MarioD intuited elsewhere, is my lack of knowledge on HOW to arrange/orchestrate, I've admitted same. I'll even admit laziness to spend the time to learn composing for orchestra, arranging in general, or the Zen of "becoming one" with strings, horns, wind woods, and brass.
Again good info and demos
Larry
Win10Pro,i9,64GB,2TBSSD+20TBHDDs,1080TI,BIAB'24,Scarlett18i8,Montage7,Fusion 8HD,QS8,Integra7,XV5080,QSR,SC-8850,SPLAT,FL21&others,Komp.14,IK suite&others, just a guitar player-AXE FX III &FM9T, FishmanTP, MIDIGuitar2, GK2/3'sw/GI20
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Wow! Thanks everyone for all of these great posts! I have been wondering for a couple of years now about GPO. Actually, I still know virtually nothing about it. I have wanted strings in my biab/rb tunes for a long time. I have used some of the styles with "orchestra" in them for awhile, too. I really like the rich sound of string sections, but as a trumpet player, I really don't know anything about bowing, mix, etc.. At this point in my life, I'm willing to just insert "something" already done that will enrich my amateur backup. Sounds like Aria is a real help for someone with limited CC knowledge, too. The points about knowing the (string) instruments is well taken, too. Heck, I can't even play the piano or guitar. I know about 30 chords for the ukulele and that's about it. I really respect all you folks and your experience and knowledge. I'm grateful that you are sharing it with us. One thing I have learned through all of this is that there is no one software program that even comes close to meeting all needs and desires. I think that there are many of us who's knowledge is so limited that we have no clue as to which instrumentation package to get.....or not to get? It was pointed out that things were done "by ear" in the past. I think that still applies today, but in a slightly different way. For example, I have an SD2, but I don't think the flute sounds very good on it. My wife plays the flute and she has a better tone than the synth. Okay, I'm biased even though her tone isn't as good as Galway's. Of course, it could be just my ignorance on how to tweak out the vibrato, too Stan
Cornet Curmudgeon
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"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
Convenient Ways to Listen to Band-in-a-Box® Songs Created by Program Users!
The User Showcase Forum is an excellent place to share your Band-in-a-Box® songs and listen to songs other program users are creating!
There are other places you can listen to these songs too! Visit our User Showcase page to sort by genre, artist (forum name), song title, and date - each listing will direct you to the forum post for that song.
If you'd rather listen to these songs in one place, head to our Band-in-a-Box® Radio, where you'll have the option to select the genre playlist for your listening pleasure. This page has SoundCloud built in, so it won't redirect you. We've also added the link to the Artists SoundCloud page here, and a link to their forum post.
We hope you find some inspiration from this amazing collection of User Showcase Songs!
Congratulations to the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
We've just announced the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
There are 45 winners, each receiving a Band-in-a-Box 2024 UltraPAK! Read the official announcement to see if you've won.
Our User Showcase Forum receives more than 50 posts per day, with people sharing their Band-in-a-Box songs and providing feedback for other songs posted.
Thank you to everyone who has contributed!
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Forums66
Topics81,620
Posts735,183
Members38,517
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Most Online2,537
Jan 19th, 2020
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