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... but how do you go looking for a great girl singer and somehow think you may actually marry her?




Just dumb luck. After my divorce I played in a couple of different bands. The first one had severe personalty problems, so I moved on. The next one had a long term gig up here in Fort Pierce (I was from the Fort Lauderdale area). Leilani was in a going nowhere band and we started seeing each other. One day I showed up for work and another band was setting up. We had gotten fired (the lead singer thought he was too big of a star) and the band broke up. So Leilani and I started looking for other musicians while I took a temporary 'day job' until the new band started working. That was 34 years ago.

We were in this 5 piece band together, and lost the bass player (read: out of work while we break in a new musician). Then we lost the drummer (read: out of work again). After breaking the new drummer in, we went to our first gig and she then told us her religion wouldn't let her play in a bar. The next day I bought my first keyboard with a sequencer in it, then the Atari, then the Mac, and then the PC. We never looked back.

Leilani is a fantastic singer (I'm an OK singer), and she is a decent synth and rhythm guitar player. Plus she is intelligent, has good stage presence, great work ethics, and like myself, thinks that playing music should be fun. I play a very good sax, flute, and wind synthesizer and am adequate at lead guitar and keyboards (I also do bass and drums, that helps with the backing tracks that I create.

She is my best friend, my lover, my band-mate, and is fun to make music with. 24/7 together isn't enough.

Like I said, I got lucky.

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... Working with your wife is the key. Double the money means you both have a chance at a good career and the fact that you two have managed to work it out all these years is a testament to both of you. I'm sure there have been problems but you're both still together and that is just great.

Bob




The only problem is that when work is slack, we are both out of work. But fortunately that doesn't happen too often and like everybody else in the seasonal business in Florida, we adapt to that.

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Two things come into play here. First of all, define "living". You can "live" in your van on nothing, no utilities in your name, pay as you go cell phone, online access at the library only, sponging off a girlfriend or living with your parents forever, looking for people who will invite you to dinner once a week so you can have something other than cold food you make in your van.... or you can "live" in a home you own, drive a nice car, keep your gas and electric turned on.... just be responsible in general.

Second, does your area have enough places to play to keep you busy 22 dates per month?




We live in a house 300' from the actual coastline of Florida (there is a lagoon and a barrier island to the east of that). It's small but there are only two of us, and we don't have a lot of luxury items. But we do have everything we need. The bills get paid. I could make a lot more money if I had followed the Electronics Engineering career I was trained for, but I had an Engineering job for a couple of years (while playing on the weekend) and I guarantee it wasn't worth the money for me. So we live modestly but not in poverty nor in luxury. Other than the mortgage, I'm not in debt.

When doing one-nighters in Florida, we don't need 22 dates per month. Two one-nighters a week pays about what 6 nights in a Holiday Inn pays (but the Holiday Inn no longer has a band). And since we are both doing it, the money goes to the same family.

What do we call a living? To me it's a small home on a half acre lot with the Indian River and huge mansions on one side of me and a nature preserve on the other. ... It's enjoying what I do, waking up with a smile and going to bed with one. ... One doesn't need a Porsche, a Dodge will do nicely. ... One doesn't need an iPhone, an Android will do just fine. ... One doesn't need jewelry, saxophones, synthesizers, and guitars are more fun. ... One doesn't need a membership in a yacht club, I had a sailboat once, music is a lot more fun. ... One doesn't need a huge HDTV, I pulled the plug in the 1980s because TV was boring - bigger screen doesn't mean better content - instead I learned guitar, wind synth, HTML for both my websites, and how to run a mail-order business that turned into an on-line business - much better than watching TV to me.

So what am I missing? I can't think of a thing that's worth giving up my bliss and taking a 9 to 5 for. I'm happy, I spend the day happy, and on gig days instead of saying "I have to go to work today" I say, "I get to go to work today.

What could be better?

Notes


Bob "Notes" Norton smile Norton Music
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Very well said Notes!

later,

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I have a friend (my former guitar instructor) who makes his living playing music.

He plays 500 gigs a year!?!?!

How does he do it? Well, he plays 2 nursing home gigs 5 days a week; he plays in a jazz duo about twice a month; he plays in a rock/cover band trio about 3- 4 times a month; gives lessons on Thursday night for 4 hours; and he does solo gigs at night about twice a week.

He makes between $80,000 - $100,000 a year. Certainly not riches but a comfortable living (he wife works also as a teacher which adds another $75k and benefits (a school teacher)).

But 500 gigs a year is a heckuva lot of work. I have “hung out” with him for a couple days and it’s a lot of driving, load in, load out (2-3 times a day), a day may start at 10am and finish up at 1am. But he loves it and he is an excellent musician who loves playing to the crowd in the same way that Notes Norton describes his stage demeanor.

I love playing music and occasionally, I fantasize about playing music for my living but working as hard as I see musicians work to live…without seeing a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow (you know, U2 kind of living), it doesn’t seem worth it to me (I’m 55 so dreams like that have long ago evaporated…but don’t worry, I still have other dreams).

Sometimes dreams of making a living at what you love to do causes “what you love do” to become “just a job.” I hear that in some of our forum members saying that they “became burned out on music.”

From my 16th birthday until I was 45, skydiving was my passion…I accumulated 5,000 jumps, was National champion in 1982, 1999 and 2002. So I certainly was qualified to make my living as a professional skydiver (instructor, demo jumps, competition events, etc.) and make a comfortable living ($80-100k, like my guitar playing friend). But I chose NOT to because I did NOT want my entire life to be engulfed with what gave me incredible joy…it would have become a JOB and rob the pleasure it gave me (in other words: burned out).

But if I was 20 again (!), maybe chasing after the musical dream would be fun!!! Kinda reminds me of a song…

Those were the days my friend
We thought they’d never end
We’d sing and dance, forever and a day
We’d live the life we choose, we’d fight and never lose
For we were young…
And sure to have our way!

(Just saying my couple of pennies)

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Quote:

There is another thread here recently about Tommy Emmanuel. Same thing IMO.

The one common denominator I've noticed about these kind of performers, who can entertain audiences all night long all by themselves and never lose that keen audience interest, is that they always, always, KEEP PERFECT TIME while they are performing. Watch their feet, as that is their internal clock. Then govern your practice time accordingly.

Over the years I've learned that you don't have to attempt to play *everything* when accompanying your own singing or otherwise playing your instrument by yourself like that, but you absolutely MUST be able to keep good time.

--Mac




I have spent gobs of time on youtube watching TE...I have seen him 6 times (he passes thru Chicago a couple times a year) and as amazing as he is playing bass lines, rhythm, harmony and melody all at the same time , his sense of time is what knocks me out completely. He can be playing up a storm and throws in a 2-3 second series of single note licks and jump back to what he was playing and he NEVER LOSES THE GROOVE!

And that, my friends, is what it is all about...THE GROOVE. It is a skill set that very few musicians master.

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Still waiting for my male escort gig to show a profit....
WSS




I wouldn't wait a whole lot longer......

You worked a lot of 8 hour days. The hours just weren't all on stage. Driving from city to city, loading in, setting up, loading out, driving to the next town, rehearsing, writing, recording, re-recording... that's all "working". You likely put 6 hours into some music endeavor today.

The on stage part is only part of it.


I smashed the hell out of my car today. When the cops came I told him "Officer, that guy was BOTH texting and drinking a beer." The cop said "Sir, he has every right to do that. I mean, it's HIS living room..."
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WOW! 500 gigs a year!

I play between 75 - 100 any given year and while I love every minute of it I am seriously thinking of cutting back my load. Your friend makes me feel like a whimp!

Later,

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500 a year... compared to my........ one.


I smashed the hell out of my car today. When the cops came I told him "Officer, that guy was BOTH texting and drinking a beer." The cop said "Sir, he has every right to do that. I mean, it's HIS living room..."
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On a more serious note I guess it all depends on what you call a living.

Later,




That was serious.
What do you call " a living?"
WSS

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I've known other musicians that got burned out on music. I knew a professional fisherman who got burned out on fishing. It's true that for some turning a hobby into a profession can cut down on the fun factor.

I guess I'm lucky that way. I don't care if I'm playing a tired old war horse like Yakety Sax or if I'm improvising a solo on a song we just learned, I'm having a great time doing it. Playing music in front of an appreciative audience is truly my bliss.

Not that it's all a bed of roses. I don't particularly care for the business end of being a musician. Doing cold calls for more work is absolutely the worst - and there are no agents around here that can keep you busy enough. Fortunately, I haven't done that in years, as most of our business is repeat business or referrals.

There is no vacation pay and no sick leave. In fact, you are not allowed to get sick and if you do, you have to perform and pretend you aren't sick. Fortunately, I don't get sick often, a mild cold every 5 to 10 years is about it. But perhaps because I know I can't call in, and because I don't subconsciously want a day off work, my immune system might work harder than most others (Leilani doesn't get sick often either.

There is no job security, but with all the corporate downsizing and out-sourcing, there is no job security in the corporate world, either.

I have to pay more taxes than Romney does. I pay 15% self-employment tax and then my income tax on top of that. On the other hand there are deductions.

Since I do one-nighters, We have to move equipment each time I gig. So an additional 2-3 hours can be tacked on to each gig for some manual labor. On the other hand, some people pay hundreds of dollars per year to go to the gym for weight bearing exercises, I get paid for them. My speakers weigh 32 pounds each, and my rolling rack just a little bit more, so I'm not killing myself either.

So making a living as a self employed musician is not for every one.

On the other hand, I'm living life on my own terms, not following orders from anybody else, never having to do "busy work", making good or bad decisions and either benefiting or learning from them, I never feel like I have a "job", I get to meet a lot of interesting people and each job is different. We have some clients that book us once per year and it's like meeting old friends each year. We have another gig we do weekly 10 months a year and we will be returning for our 5th season this October - the regular customers are like extended family to us. We were on cruise ships for 3 years and got to experience the Caribbean islands and crew/staff members from 30 different countries, some of which we still keep in touch with, 20 years later.

"I've never known a musician who regretted being one." ~ Virgil Thompson

Virgil, you can count me in on that. I'm very glad I am a musician.

Although many religions promise us a happy hunting ground of sorts after we die, there is no guarantee. So as far as I know, this life is the proverbial bird in the hand. So I intend to live as long as I can, have as much fun as I can, have as little stress as I can, while being a good enough person so that if there are those pearly gates, I'll be invited in -- if not, I've made the most of this all too short life.

Notes


Bob "Notes" Norton smile Norton Music
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See, Notes, YOU have done it right, and are continuing to do it right. You actually WORK at your craft. How many of the other type do we all know? The kind who sit at home and never work at their music and complain that they have no work? This isn't like the Nigerian lottery where you are the lucky one selected to receive Prince Mogugu's millions! The venues can't call if they don't know who you are.

The Motown band I was in for a few years did a LOT of marketing. We mailed out packets with audio CDs, live DVDs, bios on every member, photos, a bulk song list AND several example set lists that were tailered to specific types of events.... that went out to every local venue we could find, and then we'd drive to the bigger cities within a 5 hour radius (yes Harv, even that state up north!) where we'd buy newspapers and steal phone books and visit the newspaper to talk to the entertainment writers to see what was what in their city. I would say 99% of them were gracious and offered as much help and information as possible.

Now shift to the guy who spends 6 hours every day sitting on his Marshall amp playing as fast as he can on his Les Paul waiting for someone to discover him. Of course that is an exaggeration, but we know people like that, don't we?

Westside Steve, who has chimed in on this thread, has been very successful here in our area for many years, but he has the talent and the showmanship to do so. That is still the key. You need to give them something they enjoy attending but you really need to give them something good to listen to. He is in that first group of people who do it right. A former bandmate of mine is in the other group who sits and waits for people to call him with gigs that pay $100,000 a night for 3 sets of cover music.

I am going to do a solo act and charge $1 million. I doubt if I'll get many jobs, but if I ever get ONE......

And one quick comment on what "live" means... I want to LIVE, not exist or survive. I want creature comforts like most of us do. However, I also know excesses when I see it. I have a nice TV and sound system, a car that gets me to my job every day, a comfortable house with a decent sized yard and woods behind me.... I don't need 11 cars and 4 houses. I was taught to know that you can't hitch a U-Haul to the hearse, and I have nobody to leave anything to so I don't care to amass riches or anything. The local animal shelter gets the proceeds of my estate sale anyway... They gave me the three best friends I ever had. I pay them back when I die.


I smashed the hell out of my car today. When the cops came I told him "Officer, that guy was BOTH texting and drinking a beer." The cop said "Sir, he has every right to do that. I mean, it's HIS living room..."
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Hey! Jusa' minute...I'm waiting for Prince Mogugu's millions to be transferred into my checking account! He said to just give him 350 Quid for legal fees and my bank account number along with my PIN and he would take care of everything else.

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Hey Don! Just hold on there a minute.....YOU are too late.....being a Scot, I managed to beat him down to £300! But I felt guilty, so I've told him to accept YOUR details. Maybe you will send me a few quid when everything is settled? Regards, Joe G.

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Well, while you guys were fighting over that one, King Bfusa just called me and sent me HIS millions!!


I smashed the hell out of my car today. When the cops came I told him "Officer, that guy was BOTH texting and drinking a beer." The cop said "Sir, he has every right to do that. I mean, it's HIS living room..."
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Quote:

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Still waiting for my male escort gig to show a profit....
WSS




I wouldn't wait a whole lot longer......

You worked a lot of 8 hour days. The hours just weren't all on stage. Driving from city to city, loading in, setting up, loading out, driving to the next town, rehearsing, writing, recording, re-recording... that's all "working". You likely put 6 hours into some music endeavor today.

The on stage part is only part of it.




Yeah, I guess you're right.
Somehow it seems like it's not work if I'd do it for free....
Don't want these club owners to find out though...

WSS

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I have to pay more taxes than Romney does. I pay 15% self-employment tax and then my income tax on top of that. On the other hand there are deductions.




Umm, no. I'm an Enrolled Agent, a tax pro. Most wealthy people including 99% of all polititians you could name have a lot of money in investments. Investments are made with after tax funds. That is they earned it, paid tax on it then bought the investment. This is why investment income is taxed at a much lower rate than earned income because the funds have already been taxed. Few people understand that.

Investments are not guaranteed, people can and do lose money all the time. Some rich guy could lose a million bucks and how much can he write off that year? $3,000. $3,000?!? Yep that's it. Now, he can use that loss to offset future investment earnings but what if there isn't any? Then he takes 3 grand a year forever or until he dies, whichever comes first. If the government didn't give a tax break for those investments noboby would take the risk and invest in anything, they would just keep their after tax money in the bank at less than 1%.

Not getting into any kind of political discussion at all here, just making a very basic and incomplete (very incomplete) tax comment.

Bob


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On a more serious note I guess it all depends on what you call a living.

Later,




That was serious.
What do you call " a living?"
WSS





Steve,

I did say it was serious but my answer is really pretty simple. . . although not necessarily in this order I would say paying my bills on time, being able to afford the necessities required for my family to live a healthy happy life and of course being thought off as a decent human by my fellow man.

Later,

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Two things come into play here. First of all, define "living".




Already did at the start....

And eddie1261, you must be the life of the party when you go out!


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I supported a family of five, while on the road for almost 15 years.
Soon, I hope to sell my business & do it again. (without the kids!)
I love playing music. That's why I became a musician!

Mick

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I supported a family of five, while on the road for almost 15 years.




It's the 'while on the road' part that never interested me. I'm not happy away from home (unless the family comes with). Passed on more than one traveling job offer. Just not for me. Couple nights a year away from the wife and kids is enough for me.

YMMV


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And eddie1261, you must be the life of the party when you go out!




Out? What is this "out" of which you speak?

I never go anywhere. There are times I wish I'd get sick so I'd have to go to the hospital.... and that paramedics would have to come and transport me just so I'd have visitors. If I didn't have a dog, I would never speak outside of my job. Nobody calls me, nobody ever comes over, when people DO need to contact me they email or text....

But a lot of this is by choice. I was in a VERY busy band. We would play 5 nights a week, and in the good weather months, we would usually play 7 shows in 4 days from Thursday to Sunday. Often the afternoon show and the evening show were 3 hours apart. We had 2 PA systems for those weekends, and a guy with one of those big vans that seated 9 who would drive us so we could nap between shows. After all of that, I got tired of people in general, and especially people in bars that don't know how to behave after their 3rd beer. In my day I was a party ANIMAL, but never to a point where I invaded other people's good time, and I saw too much of that to be comfortable in a bar ever again.

So, no, I not only COULDN'T make a living playing music anymore, I wouldn't try. Of course, my skills have eroded to a point where I am not but maybe half the player I used to be, but I found out a couple of years ago when I was putting together a tribute band that with work they could come back. That band never got off the ground but after a lot of weeks of rehearsals it was sounding really good with me behind a mountain of keyboards. What I absolutely CAN'T do is work a 40 hour job and have the energy to practice every day to get those skills back. I find myself asleep sitting up on the couch by 7pm.

Plus there is the component of having to conform and play that set list of cliches and I refuse to do it. There is that "list" of 20 or so songs that I will NEVER play again. That will disqualify me from 98.6% of rooms everywhere. I've never been one to worry about coloring inside the lines and I don't see how I could start now at my age. That other 1.4% is not going to provide enough earning potential to survive.

It was fun, I enjoyed it, and I wouldn't trade those years for anything. I got to travel to a lot of places in the US and Canada, play music, and get paid for it. But my life is now computers and the network that they sit on, with a stable income AND a more responsible perspective on how to manage it.

People CAN make a decent living playing music. Just not me.


I smashed the hell out of my car today. When the cops came I told him "Officer, that guy was BOTH texting and drinking a beer." The cop said "Sir, he has every right to do that. I mean, it's HIS living room..."
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