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I'm going to be playing keys in a Southern Rock Band.A little off for me but it'll give me a great opportunity to polish my keyboarding skills.
I have a very good setup. My issue is my MAudio Keystatin 88ES controller.It's velocity sensitive of course which is great for piano but not so good for B3.Can't do very good slides.No way to turn the velocity off.I good buy a cheap non velocity keyboard but are there any other suggestions so I don't need to do this?
Thanks
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Not sure if velocity makes that much of a difference here. I have a Roland 700nx piano and a Nord C2 - not too much difference. The Piano KB I have has slight overhangs on the white keys and this kind of digs in the hand, whilst a Hammond Clone has waterfall keys with soft edges to the white keys. There is a difference of course, buyt in my view its slight. Youy could certainly get by without turning of the velolict sensitivity.
Which brings me to the point - mmaybe you could do this- simply turtn it off?
Win 11 64, Asus Rog Strix z390 mobo, 64 gig RAM, 8700k
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Are you sure about the velocity on the Keystation? Many MIDI controller keyboards have a way to select velocity curves from flat to linear, with several in between. I haven't checked the documentation, I'm just going by an old one I had. Unfortunately, the manual for my M-Audio keyboard is packed away somewhere as I'm moving.
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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It's not the velocity, it's the weighted keys - for authentic B3 slides and so forth, you need to be able to slide easily. Most organ plugins will generally ignore the velocity data anyways. For a great B3 emulator for free, get the Organized Trio plugin from GSI. http://www.genuinesoundware.com/?a=showproduct&b=37John, you should be able to use your keystation, but the weighted keys will be a bit problematic just from a technique standpoint. Give the above plugin a try with it and see what you think. I'm pretty sure Mac has weighed in before saying he has no problem doing drawbar organ work with a weighted controller - even the keystation if I'm not mistaken. I don't like it one bit. FWIW, I do have an M-Audio Oxygen 49 keyboard with non-weighted keys that would work - I have it for sale since I recently picked up a new Casio Synth. Zero-Zero is right about most controller keyboards not having waterfall keys. I wish my new Casio had waterfall, but it doesn't. Some are worse than others. The M-Audio above works fine, but the one thing to be careful of when sliding is that it's a very lightweight keyboard - you can 'slide' the thing right off the stand if you don't have a good rubber gripper pad underneath it. I've nearly done this one time. PM me if you are interested in the Oxygen. It's nearly brand new condition - little clear plastic cover on the LED display is still on there, for example. I have it listed in the Colorado Springs Craiglist - if you want to see pix.
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I've got 5 keyboards, and am stumped as to what this means. As in whack a triad and slide all the fingers up a few octaves? I'm sure flat keys might make this easier, but many keys now are rounded a bit between keys, whereas old hammonds had block like keys, more like a skinny brick.
Is that what we are talking about?
If it's just an issue of velocity and loudness when sliding up and down, I just let her rip.
I do much prefer to have a volume pedal in the mix though.
I am so out of practice it's terrible. I kinda quit except for a very few keyboard / flute things with my wife, but down from 2 a month to 2 or 3 a year, and the rest just for fun. Often when she gets home after 10 hours in the office the remaining hours are for supper and then she pulls out work again.
I turtle in my office and work on photography mostly.
For the first time in ages I was up late last night, change in medications knocked me off schedule.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Quote:
I'm going to be playing keys in a Southern Rock Band.A little off for me but it'll give me a great opportunity to polish my keyboarding skills.
I have a very good setup. My issue is my MAudio Keystatin 88ES controller.It's velocity sensitive of course which is great for piano but not so good for B3.Can't do very good slides.No way to turn the velocity off.I good buy a cheap non velocity keyboard but are there any other suggestions so I don't need to do this?
Thanks
Find other organ patches. *MANY* are simply programmed wrong for real organ use, and someone left the thing able to respond to Velocity data sends.
Some keyboardists, those who have practiced with the Piano and have developed a good control over their attacks, may *prefer* the Velocity control available on organ patches, BTW, for they can learn to emulate what the Expression Pedal on the *real* organ brings to the thing, but most never bother to actually hook up a MIDI Expression CC11 pedal to their MIDI keyboard and use their foot to provide such as Swells, Decrescendos and other things that the sheer animation of the electric organ makes happen in a song.
For someone starting out to learn the thing as keyboardist, moving from the Bass predominantly, as in your case, which is a very good place to come from IMO for this, the Velocity on the MIDI organ keyboard is not a kill at all. Try using your fingers to play softly, play more loudly, etc. as you work tha organ patch.
TIP: In the vast majority of cases, emulate what horns kind of naturally do: Moving up the keyboard, Crescendo. That should start at some lower volume level and the volume should increase a bit as the notes move upwards. Likewise, downward motion is the opposite, most of the time the volume should diminish a bit as you go downscale.
Check the Manual for your keyboard controller carefully as well, there may indeed be a way to tell it to not send Velocity data or actually, to send a FIXED Velocity for every hit, like maybe 90.
But if you do, you should invest in a MIDI Pedal Controller and plug it into the keyboard, which should be set to send CC11, which is the default on most such inputs anyway, making such typically plug 'n play.
--Mac
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Quote:
My issue is my MAudio Keystatin 88ES controller.It's velocity sensitive of course which is great for piano but not so good for B3.Can't do very good slides.No way to turn the velocity off. I good buy a cheap non velocity keyboard but are there any other suggestions so I don't need to do this?
Thanks
That has nothing whatever to do with it John. You're describing it backwards it's the synth that's velocity sensitive, not the keyboard. Sending velocity has been built into every midi keyboard pretty much since day one. Remember what it is, it's a controller. What does it control? Your synth. It's the organ patch that receives what the controller is sending that's the problem. All the different synths I've used over the years, way to many to list, use organ patches that do not respond to velocity so no problem. They all keep one or two with velocity just for effect but I never use them. Just use some different patches. If you can't find one then I would like to know what synth you're using because that's not right. If you're running out of time then go into the menu for whatever organ patch and turn off the velocity, should be pretty easy.
I agree you should pick up an expression pedal for organ, M-Audio has a good one for $30, I picked up two of them from Sam Ash but a regular analog guitar volume pedal will work too, you just need more patch cords for it by plugging it between your synth module audio outputs and your amp. An expression pedal gets rid of the cord clutter, it's just one light cord that goes to the back of your midi controller plus that input is programmable. I use one for volume and the other one for wah on some rhodes patches.
As to the issue of weighted keys for organ, I used an 88 key weighted Kurzweil PC2x for years and yes, it's more difficult but I did it ok. For a non trained pianist though it would be tough. For you I would stay away from slides, smears and fast runs, just stick to sustain chords and rhythm. It's impossible to try to make you an organ player by writing in a forum, it sounds like you have played some keyboards before so just use your ears and do the best you can.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Quote:
You're describing it backwards it's the synth that's velocity sensitive, not the keyboard. Sending velocity has been built into every midi keyboard pretty much since day one. Remember what it is, it's a controller. What does it control? Your synth. It's the organ patch that receives what the controller is sending that's the problem. All the different synths I've used over the years, way to many to list, use organ patches that do not respond to velocity so no problem. They all keep one or two with velocity just for effect but I never use them. Just use some different patches. If you can't find one then I would like to know what synth you're using because that's not right. If you're running out of time then go into the menu for whatever organ patch and turn off the velocity, should be pretty easy.
Interesting take, and I will defer to Mac to answer what I describe here.
As I understand it, velocity sensitivity, while some perceive it as "harder and softer", is really the speed at which the key leaves the top contact and arrives at the bottom one, thus "velocity". So the synth, which I will call the sound source, translates what is sent to it, and if that key is depressed faster, it attacks harder. The patch, the parameters in the sound source, translate the input data, right, so if the manual keyboard senses the key pressed faster, it attacks more sharply. That response to the keyboard velocity CAN be turned off in the patch, which is in the sound source, but it should also be able to be disabled in the manual keyboard that is sending the data.
My Ensoniq ESQ-1 that I have had for so long my beard wasn't gray has an assignable parameter to turn velocity off, and it is patch specific, so should I choose to I can adjust it.
The original post referred to doing a long gliss up the keyboard. "Can't do very good slides."
My bigger thing agrees with Scott on weighted vs non weighted. That synth has no weighted keys and I have been doing slides for years.
Mac, where are you at on the topic of velocity as Bob and I define it?
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Yea Bob you are right. In fact I have been using the Organized Trio for quite a while and the controller does send velocity but the plug ignores it.I got confused for a moment cause I was using another synth that,as Mac stated, was using the velocity data. Organized Trio is fine. Sometimes I confuse myself.The keystation is hard to slide up though.
Thanks for the replies.
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Another question relating to Sampletank.Not to be confused with using it in BIAB. This is about using it as a synth with a controller.
Question:
I can't find a way to set 2 slots to the same MIDI channel so that I can layer 2 sounds.
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Quote:
Another question relating to Sampletank.Not to be confused with using it in BIAB. This is about using it as a synth with a controller.
Question:
I can't find a way to set 2 slots to the same MIDI channel so that I can layer 2 sounds.
Set the synth to the two different channels, load the two different synths, one into each channel, then set the keyboard to send on those two channels. Not the greatest thing for live playing, which is why most good hardware synths like the SD-4 will feature their own layering capabilities. At the synth level, you don't have to change channels on the keyboard.
For using softsynths, use of a MIDI software designed for playing them in realtime live might contain some easy setup routines. search for some and read up on them.
That said, I got tired of the software synth routine live onstage. Starts out looking economical, but isn't.
If serious about playing keyboard out, take a real hard look at the CASIO WK-7500. Under 500 bucks street price and the thing contains a real tonewheel organ additive synth plus a very good leslie cab simulator along with around 500 and some very good MIDI voices. And you get hardware drawbars on the organ as well. That's what's sitting above my Kurzweil the past few months and to tell the truth, the five hundred dollar CASIO sounds better at Rhodes, Wurly and Clavinet than the much more expensive Kurzweil does. This thing is a real instrument and it is a sleeper. CASIO WK-7500, they also make a 61 key model. Not only am I playing it, I'm also sitting there RECORDING the entire gig to SD card at the same time on it, using Mic inputs.
--Mac
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Casio's are definitely good bang for the buck but do you have the new PC3? If not all I can say is the PC3 is so far beyond the older models you can't even mention them in the same breath. I doubt you would say the Casio sounds better than a PC3 but I could be wrong, everybody has their own preferences for sound.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Both live and recorded ...they may be different choices
Make your sound your own!
.. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
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I have what I have and am very satisfied. That said I figured out how to layer.
Left click and hold on the midi channel # and drag up or down.You can set any number of instruments to receive on tha same channel as the controller sends on. I bet I forget this unintuitive method by tomorrow.
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Quote:
Casio's are definitely good bang for the buck but do you have the new PC3? If not all I can say is the PC3 is so far beyond the older models you can't even mention them in the same breath. I doubt you would say the Casio sounds better than a PC3 but I could be wrong, everybody has their own preferences for sound.
Bob
Yup. And I mean what I said above, based on my own little empirical showdowns on the gig. For example, I will do something like call up much the same Rhodes patch or the Wurly or whatever on both before the song starts, then try playing the first chorus with one, switch to the other for the second chorus, etc.
What is funny about that is when I get to go over the recording of the gig and since I've written nothing down as to which is what, it at first served as an ersatz blindfold test in which I failed rather miserably, thinking that the better sound was coming from the more expensive instrument.
I do love the weighted keyboard of the Kurz, though, been thinking about hooking up a MIDI cable from its output to the CASIO input for certain patches and tasks, but haven't got the round tuit yet.
I'm not all that good at judging the overall sound of my keyboards while playing in realtime, something learned way back when I finally had the ability to record gigs using the old minidisc player and its two built in mics laying back of house on the mixer. Well, duct taped to the mixer, heh. Anyway, that started to reveal many differences in what was happening mixwise in FOH vs onstage. And then, with more familiarity with the live recordings as time progressed, I began to notice certain things in certain instances about the mix out front that defied what I thought was really happening out there.
Still so much to learn, so little time.
Look, no argument, the Kurz is one thing and the CASIO is another. Each does certain tasks very well, either could be used standalone on any gig I play, all else would just be a matter of personal preference. The big surprise to me was that the lightweight little CASIO performs so well and at that pricepoint. Both keyboards together on the rack makes for a formidable enough keyboard section for what we're doing right now, backing a Blues singer, some Funk tunes, some Jazz, some SmoothJazz, a bit of James Brown, etc.
The real strongpoint about that CASIO IMO is the tonewheel organ and the physical drawbars. The sound of it is authentic. And I would have bought it at that pricepoint if the organ and leslie sim was all it had on it, actually. All the rest is just a rather pleasant icing on the cake sort of thing.
Well, I do dig the fact that I can patch the CASIO thru my keyboard amp using the line outs and still have the amplified speakers on the deck there as monitors right there in front o' mah face. Been thinking about jacking the Kurz audio out into the CAS so I can hear it from there like that as well. Splitters would be in order though, I guess.
Seriously, the CASIO's tonewheel organ outshines the B4 aoftware and is far more convienent to use live onstage IMO.
And there's a pushbutton SWITCH, not a modwheel, for spinnin' the leslie up and down as well. Chorus is switchable too, as is Perc. Nice. By comparison, all the Kurz has to offer are MIDI Patches of rather static tonewheel organ sounds, some with single speed "leslie" already invoked. With the CASIO, I can do my spinups and spindowns, just like with the real thing. Nice. My opinion, the Hammond must be an animated presentation, constantly changing subtle things throughout the performance when the performance is rock, pop, blues, funk, etc. Adds so much. That CASIO delivers.
And you know I spent years at the helm of the real thang, I don't take my Hammond sound lightly. ahem.
--Mac
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Quote:
I have what I have and am very satisfied. That said I figured out how to layer.
Left click and hold on the midi channel # and drag up or down.You can set any number of instruments to receive on tha same channel as the controller sends on. I bet I forget this unintuitive method by tomorrow.
You are a good and rather well seasoned amateur radio operator, I'll bet you don't forget it.
BUT -- live onstage such tedious things can be hard to configure in the heat of a gig.
Do all you can to be able to call up that sort of thing quickly onstage. I used to even incorporate a bit of Scripting to automate tasks, if possible. There are some neat Mouse and Keyboard emulators out there that might work, some may still be freebies.
Even got to the point where I saved routines named by the song they were for.
Still, Jam Sessions or those gigs where the guy just starts callin' songs and expects to go right into them were hectic things with the software synths and all. Good idea to keep one GM synth in the chain, connected to a spare audio input that is turned down. Software knob down and hardware synth knob up at least yields a quick Piano on Patch 001, dig.
--Nac
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Here you go, Mac. 
I am using the new 1040XTRAEZ form this year. It has just 2 lines.
1. How much did you make in 2023?
2. Send it to us.
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Quote:
Quote:
I have what I have and am very satisfied. That said I figured out how to layer.
Left click and hold on the midi channel # and drag up or down.You can set any number of instruments to receive on tha same channel as the controller sends on. I bet I forget this unintuitive method by tomorrow.
You are a good and rather well seasoned amateur radio operator, I'll bet you don't forget it.
BUT -- live onstage such tedious things can be hard to configure in the heat of a gig.
Do all you can to be able to call up that sort of thing quickly onstage. I used to even incorporate a bit of Scripting to automate tasks, if possible. There are some neat Mouse and Keyboard emulators out there that might work, some may still be freebies.
Even got to the point where I saved routines named by the song they were for.
Still, Jam Sessions or those gigs where the guy just starts callin' songs and expects to go right into them were hectic things with the software synths and all. Good idea to keep one GM synth in the chain, connected to a spare audio input that is turned down. Software knob down and hardware synth knob up at least yields a quick Piano on Patch 001, dig.
--Nac
I do agree Mac.I'm a die hard HW guy. Laptops, software,soft synths all scare me for live but hey I'm a risk taker and the cool factor is well cool. If this works out there will be a better rig in the future.
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It's worth toting the HW synth for live gigs.
One hiccup is enough to show this as true.
Consider the softsynth as the backup if something happens with HW synth. I once had the screen go out on a HW synth in live situation; it still played the MID parts sent to it, but it made me realize that having the backup softsynth available was important too.
Make your sound your own!
.. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
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I think John's got a handle on that.
After all, he's been out there doing live performance running PT or RB onstage, that's a pretty doggone high level of trial by fire that makes the use of one keyboard and one synth software look rather simple by comparison in my view.
--Mac
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The User Showcase Forum is an excellent place to share your Band-in-a-Box® songs and listen to songs other program users are creating!
There are other places you can listen to these songs too! Visit our User Showcase page to sort by genre, artist (forum name), song title, and date - each listing will direct you to the forum post for that song.
If you'd rather listen to these songs in one place, head to our Band-in-a-Box® Radio, where you'll have the option to select the genre playlist for your listening pleasure. This page has SoundCloud built in, so it won't redirect you. We've also added the link to the Artists SoundCloud page here, and a link to their forum post.
We hope you find some inspiration from this amazing collection of User Showcase Songs!
Congratulations to the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
We've just announced the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
There are 45 winners, each receiving a Band-in-a-Box 2024 UltraPAK! Read the official announcement to see if you've won.
Our User Showcase Forum receives more than 50 posts per day, with people sharing their Band-in-a-Box songs and providing feedback for other songs posted.
Thank you to everyone who has contributed!
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Forums66
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Jan 19th, 2020
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