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...Wouldn't making BIAB easier to use make our lives harder as more and more people started using it to compete with us?




Did the vast proliferation of available guitars do that?

Or has it made things even better for guitar players?

I don't know the answers, but as an engineer I ask the questions...


--Mac

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I don't know the answers, but as an engineer I ask the questions...




Mac,

"As an engineer", you're used to 1,000 page manuals.

Don't you think current users would prefer a 5 or 10 hour systematic video tutorial?

Note the term "systematic". I've never seen even a glimpse of that in BIAB tutorials.

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...Wouldn't making BIAB easier to use make our lives harder as more and more people started using it to compete with us?




Did the vast proliferation of available guitars do that?




Yes it did! Back in the good old days when only a few people had a guitar a fellow could sit on a picnic table and belt out a couple of tunes and the girls would swarm around him. Nowadays, everybody and his monkey has a guitar in the park. Its gotten hard to get a decent swarm anymore.

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Scott, I just discovered something almost amazing. Biab has a new competitor. Check this out from Cubase 7:

http://www.steinberg.net/en/products/cubase/start.html

It's the Chord Track and Chord Track Editor. I have to leave for dinner but I just gave a quick listen to this video and it's definitely encroaching on Biab territory especially the chord follow feature that takes the chord from your live playing on your controller. It doesn't look like it's like an arranger keyboard or anything but it's used to modify your existing project. They also talk about how the program changes the audio tracks as well as midi tracks AND, AND picking a style. Considering they don't have our Real Tracks, that sounds like you can record your own audio part like a guitar or whatever and if you use the Chord Edit function it actually changes what you recorded. That sounds very interesting. Got to go but I'm checking this out further.

A quick note if anybody wants to get a feel for where the music biz is now just give a listen to all the background music with the different DAW's. No jazz, classic rock, country etc here.

Bob


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I think we (and PG) should definitely care about it especially in this fast paced technological world we live in.

An easier interface saves us time and frustration.
New forum members expand our musical production knowledge base regardless of the style as they share their tips and workflow.

Wouldn't it be great if the only need for this forum was to share tips and the new songs we've produced with BIAB/RB?
No more (or at least fewer)frustrated rants by newbies on how to turn on ASIO or not use it at all.
We've all been there.

I love PG's products and want to see them get the recognition they deserve which in turn will hopefully make new songs we produce with them accepted by more professional venues.

Sort of reminds me of what happened to the British during our Revolutionary War and War of 1812 as they stubbornly marched forward in long traditional battle lines, old school, while the young,upstart Colonials used quick, new, hit and run techniques to decimate their ranks.
No offense meant to our cousins across the pond by the way.

In fact did you know that there was a British version of Johnny Horton's "Battle of New Orleans".
Talk about CYA.!
You can find it on youtube.

Carkins

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Quote:

20's Charleston stuff




Great, now I've got THAT in my head all day ..




Just go with the flow and watch the movie Chicago one more time...

Bob


Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Everything Scott listed up there does serve as a very good filter to keep the trash out...


Just sayin'


--Mac




PG Music is going to need younger customers sooner or later. I'm glad you didn't refer to me as 'trash' that way when I bought PTPA and joined the forums in the 90's.

-Scott

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Quote:

Scott, I just discovered something almost amazing. Biab has a new competitor. Check this out from Cubase 7:

http://www.steinberg.net/en/products/cubase/start.html

It's the Chord Track and Chord Track Editor. I have to leave for dinner but I just gave a quick listen to this video and it's definitely encroaching on Biab territory especially the chord follow feature that takes the chord from your live playing on your controller. It doesn't look like it's like an arranger keyboard or anything but it's used to modify your existing project. They also talk about how the program changes the audio tracks as well as midi tracks AND, AND picking a style. Considering they don't have our Real Tracks, that sounds like you can record your own audio part like a guitar or whatever and if you use the Chord Edit function it actually changes what you recorded. That sounds very interesting. Got to go but I'm checking this out further.

A quick note if anybody wants to get a feel for where the music biz is now just give a listen to all the background music with the different DAW's. No jazz, classic rock, country etc here.

Bob




Bob, it still looks way behind PG capabilities - but that won't stop the new customers to go with Steinberg. Steinberg will get way more press on this matter due to their sheer magnitude.

This all reminds me of what I saw happen to GM during my 15 years there. I had to leave when I believe the company was making the best products it ever made.

I did lots of work for GM at customer clinics in LA-LA-land in the late 90's and early 2000's. In my time out there I saw the REAL customer base; not the protected Detroit area 'buy American' customer base. I saw more used Honda Civics and Accords and BMW 3-series than I could shake a stick at. I saw all the kids buying used Civics, that in their later years would be Accords and Bimmers. One thing their future purchases wouldn't be was GM vehicles.

I hope that PG can turn that corner to attract younger customers so that questions like Joe's leading question for this thread, no longer seem to be obvious to even a newcomer like him.

As PG's unique value proposition, that of autogeneration of backing tracks, perhaps becomes more of a commodity, then their future state becomes more fuzzy, IMO.

I hope that I am wrong in this assessment, BTW.

-Scott

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Everything Scott listed up there does serve as a very good filter to keep the trash out...


Just sayin'


--Mac




PG Music is going to need younger customers sooner or later. I'm glad you didn't refer to me as 'trash' that way when I bought PTPA and joined the forums in the 90's.

-Scott



Scott... do you currently use any PGMusic products?

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Scott... do you currently use any PGMusic products?




No, I do not. I've made investments in other programs that will not function properly with PG products (specifically Jamstix and all of the 'packs' ) that keep me using a different DAW that I migrated to when ASIO did not work correctly for playthrough of VSTi. My understanding is that issue is largely gone these days, but I can't justify what amounts to throwing away my $150+ investment in Jamstix to give BIAB/RB a whirl and see what works and what doesn't.

I was a PTPA user for about 8 years and purchased 2 or 3 updates over that time frame - total investment in PTPA was under $100 (I can't remember what I paid for the original - I think it was $29, and then $19 for each update - if I remember correctly).

I have a special place in my heart for PG Music because it was my introduction to computer based recording/composition. I got lots of help from Mac and rharv and russell de mussel through the forums on getting started and answering my questions.

I have to say that once I experienced real-time play through of VSTi using CMuzys, which came for free on the cover CD of computer music magazine. I begged for awhile on the wishlist for this capability with PTPA and it was nothing doing. I migrated to a different DAW which has features which really click with the experimenter/engineer in me and I haven't come back - but some day - perhaps.

-Scott

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different DAW which has features which really click with the experimenter/engineer in me





...Scott, just curious - are you referring to CMuzys ? what particular features in it really click with the experimenter/engineer in you ? (they just might click with the same thing inside me : )

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No, not Cmuzys. Cmuzys let me try playthrough of VSTi, when I was at the time limited to soundfonts in my SB Live card.

I received a NFR copy of Tracktion, and I've been hooked on it ever since. It's currently abandonware - sold, but not updated, by Mackie. Supposedly NAMM 2013 might involve an announcement of a change to that situation.

Tracktion bridges the land between more traditional DAW software and what they call a 'modular host'. You can wire up just about any signal flow that you can imagine with it, which can be incredibly fun as a hobbyist recordist. It drives some folks crazy because it doesn't have a 'mixer' view - they can't get their head around the idea that there isn't a fake mixer in the software.

I miss the notation aspects of PG products. I never bought any of the generative products, so I didn't get hooked on those.

-Scott

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Scott... do you currently use any PGMusic products?




No, I do not.

-Scott




Then I'm curious to know why you hang out in the PGMusic forum.

You don't answer questions about PGMusic's products.
Most of what you have to say is either derogatory about PGMusic products, or openly evangelical about their competitor's products. That seems more than a little inappropriate to me.

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Then I'm curious to know why you hang out in the PGMusic forum.

You don't answer questions about PGMusic's products.
Most of what you have to say is either derogatory about PGMusic products, or openly evangelical about their competitor's products. That seems more than a little inappropriate to me.




Pat, I guess you are entitled to your opinion.

I've used PG products probably well before you ever did - at least if forum participation under current usernames is applicable. My start time is about 1996, if my memory serves me correctly. I think there might be a 'join' date in the forumite database, but I'm not sure.

Read back through the lion's share of my posts and you will see that I rarely pan PG products, and often do the opposite, when it's a product specific question. In fact, just scroll up in THIS thread and you'll see that I talk about how the new Cubase chord auto-accompaniment generator looks way behind the capability of PG's products, for a simple case and point.

This particular thread is asking why there aren't more young folks around this forum. It's an astute observation by a relative newbie to the forum who I've recently found out is my age. There ARE reasons for it. Rather than dance around the issue, I laid out what my perceptions were. Of course, I believe that my perceptions have merit - as we all do. There are some reasons - what do you think they are?

As to 'why I choose to hang out here?' It's down to several things:

1. I consider a few of the long-time forum members here to be my mentors to home recording and I continue to learn from them. Goes back in the day to when everyone was recommending Radio Shack Optimus/Minimus speakers for monitoring. Y'all know who you are when and if you read this one!

1a. I try to provide the same type of tech support and advice that I received to those that are learning - this forum is a fairly graceful place to do that relative to other forums.

2. I consider some of the other more recent forum members as soul-mates as it pertains to pining for emulation of old-school electromechanical keyboards

3. I have a soft-spot for PG products because I cut my computer based recording teeth on Power Tracks Pro Audio, and I'd love to see it or RealBand contain the features that I've gotten hooked on with other products. I believe that some of what PG has added since 1996 is due to enough forumites asking often enough for features that exist elsewhere and not yet in PG Products. If you could rewind this forum 10 years back, you would see discussion after discussion about soundfonts and soundblaster cards. DX/DXi was the brand new thing and what folks were starting to wrap their heads around for 'soft synths' and so forth. You can credit folks like me who pounded and pounded for VST/VSTi direct integration as a feature for probably some of the reason it's a feature today. For many years, you couldn't use VST effects directly, you had to 'wrap' them and hope that worked. Not taking all the credit, but if there were never an outsider opinion expressed as to what was in Beulah land, y'all would still be having to use soundfonts and prior to that Sound Canvas modules, etc. Sample playback would be it. DX effects and PG's internal effects would be your only source. Yes we made music with those alone, but we make different music now and the horizons have expanded exponentially.

I would challenge you to look at my years, scratch that, decade+ of posts and what I tend to try to help with on these forums - when I give an experience-based opinion; and I believe you will find that nearly always, my comments are product-neutral, and try to stick to the underlying technical question at hand - of which USUALLY the product choice plays very little part. The only times I may wade in to what you consider derogatory comments are when someone is asking a very specific question that in fact IS product specific as to how to get the task completed and there is a direct shortcoming of PG products, or other products for that matter. Otherwise I steer clear of negative comments about PG products.

The DAW that I do use does not have an on-screen fake mixer. It's a shortcoming for what seems like most potential customers. It was never so for me, but I think it's probably one of the reasons that kept that DAW from becoming the de facto standard. It came with a mastering plugin that alone was worth the price - all by itself; at least the last two major version releases. That plugin was the Acuma Final Mix plugin, something that folks paid many hundreds of dollars for on the Mackie D8B digital mixers. Same code. It was like a mastering plugin with a full-on DAW thrown in for free!

So, back to the opening question of the thread - that is what is important here. I gave my opinions from a somewhat outsider view as to why there aren't younger forum members. I was in my late 20's when I started using PG products and asking on the forum, when I had a dial-up modem for access to the forum. I was pretty alone on the forum at that time from an age standpoint. I can think of a few others, but I think for the most part they left. I can answer the thread's question from a person that was that age when starting to use the forum and PG products.

What is your answer to the Joe V.'s question?

-Scott

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Actually - I've found Scott's comments very helpful and useful (thanks for that Scott) - and also like the music he posted very much. Sounds like you guys are arch-enemies (like Batman and the Joker, for example) regarding opinions on the BB/RB UI. I happen to think you are both right on the topic - the current UI is very logical (for the most part), and can get most jobs done fairly efficiently, but the 'old style' packaging does make the product 'look and feel' dated - even though it's the most sophisticated, useful, amazing music composition product on the market (that going well into the second decade). And I also agree that without some major modifications to modernize the 'look and feel', that other products with pockets far deeper than PG's (e.g. Apple, Steinberg, etc.) are finally focused on the music accompaniment aspects of their products, and can and will catch up and surpass - especially in terms of catering to the type of music that's in vogue today, rather than 'jazz'. Ironic part is - I would think it's much easier for PG to incorporate additional features and styles for the current 'music in vogue' today than it is for the competitors to do the same regarding jazz and pop styles. It's unlikely that the product teams in these big companies (just my impression) are going to be equally focused on underlying music theory the way PG and his team were. In fact, it is the expertise, focus, and staying true to the underlying music theory as the tool (BB/PG) was developed that maybe left less energy and resources for the UI - from a ration perspective, that is.

I grew up when those vintage synth sounds came out, and to this date, I haven't heard anything as radically new (just further refinement and morphing of the initial technologies). Now - your taste may or may not be the same as Scott's, but I really enjoyed hearing a composition that Scott posted that went outside the typical jazz/pop/traditional music application of RB/BB. And I could see Scott's point that RB/BB doesn't have enough built-in support and styles for more modern music - e.g. to enable newcomers with less music background to more easily manipulate music loops and whatever else makes that easier in other DAWS (I have to go back and look at the details Scott provided).

Lastly Pat - and you are the most similar personality I've met to mine in a forum - Scott fairly reminded you that while you defended the BB/RB interface as being 'just fine, thank-you', you never really answered the initial post question, which was "Why not more 'regulars' that are in their teens, 20's, and 30's that actively participate in PG forums?"

(NOTE: -the following comment is meant to be funny, if you find it offensive, I apologize in advance)

Perhaps your another one of the snooty jazz types that needs to 'keep out the rabble'

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(NOTE: -the following comment is meant to be funny, if you find it offensive, I apologize in advance)

Perhaps your another one of the snooty jazz types that needs to 'keep out the rabble'



to answer your questions, I'm not offended by your or Scott's replies. Scott gave good reasons why somebody who isn't a user of PGMusic products would hang out on their forum. I've always wondered about that.

Regarding being a jazz type of any variety, snooty or otherwise: Sadly, I'm not smart enough to play jazz, I just don't understand it.

Regarding my response to the question: 4th down from the top. Whereas most people answered the question "Why don't more young people use PGMusic products" I interpreted your question differently and answered it as though you asked "why don't the younger users of PGMusic products have a presence on the forum" which is a totally different question.

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I like the fact that PG music does not focus on "younger" types of music. If I want hip hop or electronica there are plenty of softwares available for that. I wish PG would focus more on acoustic music. There is no other company doing that. Perhaps even adding "Classical" RealTracks.

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It is a tragic time for the written word when one writer is forced by others to include an emoticon when attempting to tell a joke.

Of course, it wouldn't be necessary if those reading would first yield the benefit of the doubt in favor of the writer.


Just sayin'


--Mac

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I predict this will all go badly, although I hope I am wrong. (no emoticon needed)

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Nah, I don't think so we're all friends here. Speaking for myself I completely understand what's being said and have no problem at all with anything.

To answer one point that was brought up, the reason most of us will criticize these products is because we're big fans of PG and want the company to succeed going forward. However, having been in sales and marketing most of my regular working career I can say you don't have to be all things to all people to succeed. Even though our type of music along with the theory and education part of it is a shrinking market and it looks like it's getting smaller by the hour it's still a pretty large niche when measured by absolute numbers of people worldwide.

I've always thought that our classic jazz, rock, country, blues and regional traditional styles will finally wind up as part of the classical music arena and will continue to be taught in universities for a very long time as in centuries. That market will settle into a small but steady percentage of the population just like true classical music is now. If that group represents say 10 million people and PG is capturing their fair share of that, that is still a pretty big customer base and as a small company they can stay doing what they're doing and be happy as clams regardless of how we think they can improve things.

I really think they're missing the boat though by not simply revamping the look of the logos and website like Scott said and not producing some true pro quality promo videos. Example, why isn't the new 2013 video in HD? All the tutorial vids while certainly helpful are truly amateurish looking compared to what the others are doing. If PG can bring in pros like Brent Mason or Jeff Lorber for the Real Tracks, why can't they bring in a real producer for the videos?

Bob


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