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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jan 2013
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OP
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I am considering buying BIAB and am pretty sold on the syles. I do a blues solo: electric guitar, keyboard and harmonica. My question is, are there a number of variations within each syle. The Korg keyboard I had, which died, had 4 variation in each style, each one progressively more complex, syncopated, etc. Each style also had two fills, two intros and two endings. I was wondering if BIAB worked similarly within each style.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: May 2000
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Band in a Box works a lot differently from an Arranger Keyboard. For one thing, the Arranger Keyboard is designed to be used in Realtime. Band in a Box is designed such that the user must first enter the chords to the song on the Chord Grid. Then, when you hit the Gen/Play button, Band in a Box uses intelligent algorithms to decide which phrases or variations to play over those chord changes. Each time you hit Gen/Play can therefore generate a slightly different performance.
One can duplicate some of the things the style variations of the arranger keyboard can do within a song by assigning style changes at the differing bars, though.
--Mac
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jul 2001
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It is probably worthwhile pointing out that there are two, sometimes more, basic variances for each Style depending on the 'A' and 'B' section part markers. Certainly not the same as a Korg keyboard, but close.
Also you can create your own styles by mixing and matching the instruments. Intros and endings are infinitely variable and you can set the number of bars for the ending. Overall you get more variance with each performance.
Grah Jive Talk
"Don't worry baby, they'll swing their arses off."
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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.
The variations on any BiaB song go far beyond the substyles on any arranger keyboard. There is "A and B" in which B is often a little more energetic or busy than the A. But BiaB goes far beynd that: You can have the C and the D be completely separate styles.
Your A and B might be variations on a bossa, but then C could be a guajira and D a Mambo.
This is only one of the many ways in which it would be misleading to carry out a comparison between what an arranger keyboard does and what BiaB does.
I use both, and for completely separate purposes.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jan 2013
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OP
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Thanks for your replies. That anwers my question. I heard many of the styles and really liked what I heard. Tghe arranger will let you step enter the information as well as record in real time. I'm sure BIAB does alot more. Thanks everyone.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jun 2005
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I have and really like a Korg Pa1xPro. It's the first version of the Pa Pro series, the latest one is the Pa3 and I'd love to have that but not for $3,500. The sounds of my Pa1 are pretty good but not close to the Biab Real Tracks/Drums.
I do a lot of one man band type things and gave up on using Biab live. The Conductor is decent but I just can't get it to do what I want. I even dedicated a whole weekend to it last year in one final last ditch attempt to really learn it. Some use it and have good results but I just want too much out of it I guess. My Korg just does so much in a live situation liked suddenly vamping so the singer can talk to someone and then picking it up again and the full keyboard option. With that I can play full two handed piano and it still follows my chord changes even pretty complex ones. Killer.
Biab sounds so good at home with the RT's and I love it but that's where it stays, at home.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Both BiaB and my own styles feature some with A, B, C and D subsections. Plus you can switch styles at any point in the song. I do a lot of style writing for BiaB and have done so since 1992. I have also owned a couple of arranger keyboards (a Yamaha, a Roland, and a Korg). Here are the main differences as I see them (I'll try to be fair to both). - The arranger keyboards usually are more repetitive. Some play 2 bars over and over and over again. Some tout up to 16 but that's an exaggeration as it might be bars 1, 2, 3, 4, 3, 2, 3, 5, 3, 2, 3, 4, 3, 2, 3, 6 (I've seen plenty of styles with that pattern). A BiaB style can contain hundreds of patterns. The result is BiaB will be less boring to listen to
- Since a BiaB song is entered before the song starts playing, specific patterns for specific musical situations can be programmed into the style. For example, if a V7 chord is being played at the end of a verse, and the first chord of the next verse is a I chord, BiaB can play appropriate patterns that lead from the V7 to the I. Arranger keyboards either always treat a V7 chord as if a I will follow, or ignore that common occurrence. The result is BiaB plays a more musically intelligent background that is more like real musicians would play.
- Arranger keyboards usually have only 2 to 4 drum rolls per style. BiaB can have dozens. On the other hand, the drums, bass, and other instruments in each roll are tighter on the keyboard. This depends on your preference, I prefer the BiaB concept quite a bit.
- BiaB has many more styles to choose from than any arranger keyboard. They are available from PG Music, myself, and other aftermarket vendors. So if you need a specific style for a specific song, chances are BiaB will have one. Plus say if you only have one or two cha-chas (or whatever) in your keyboard and you have 10 cha-chas in your repertoire, the keyboard is going to play the same styles over and over, BiaB has the possibility of dozens of styles in any one genre.
- BiaB has support for more chords than the arranger keyboards do. From m7b5 chords to some extended 9ths 11ths and even 13ths. Most arranger keyboards stick to the basics.
- Arranger keyboards have more elaborate introductions and endings than BiaB. At first this seems like a big advantage for the keyboards, and depending on your desires, it might be. On the other hand, we had a gig for an Arthur Murray dance studio (you take the gigs as they are offered). So I whipped up a few cha-chas on the keyboard to play in real-time. I did "Cherry Pink" with a fabulous intro on the Roland. Then I did "The More I See You" and it had that exact same fabulous intro. Later I did "Never On Sunday" with that same fabulous intro, but I wasn't sure what song I was playing at the end of the intro because it was exactly like the others.
- BiaB has up to 5 different instrument sounds, some of the arranger keyboards have more (I've seen 7). This could be an advantage for the keyboards on some songs, but others don't need that many instruments
- The interaction between the bass and all the comp parts on the arranger keyboards can be a little tighter. There are some keyboard styles I'd like to reproduce on BiaB but BiaB's brain won't handle them. But looking in the opposite direction, there are thousands of styles on BiaB that the keyboard won't handle either.
- The arranger keyboards are played live in 'real time' so you can extend the song, change the arrangement, or vamp while you talk on the mic, BiaB cannot do that as the lengths and arrangements of the songs are set in advance. There is a loop feature in BiaB but it isn't the same.
- The keyboards have a limited amount of styles, and new styles can be purchased or written by the user, but the total is only a fraction of what is available for BiaB
- When the keyboard dies, or if you need new capabilities, you have to buy a new keyboard, and that will cost you thousands of dollars. The styles I wrote for BiaB on my Atari computer in the early 1990s, still work in BiaB. Plus through the years BiaB has added quite a few improvements to the program that make it work better, and make the output much more musical. A modest upgrade fee is all that is required to get the new whistles and bells - not the thousands of dollars required for the keyboard
- Because BiaB is so dominant, it has a very active user base of users, with many people who are eager to help out the newbies on this forum and on a couple not associated with PG Music
- PG Music service, tech support, and involvement by the owner, Peter Gannon, is topnotch and I think light-years better than any you will get with a keyboard company.
IMO the advantages for BiaB far outweigh the ones for the keyboards. But it all depends on you, and how you run your performance. My advice is to buy BiaB and see if it suits you. If it works you save a lot of money on a new keyboard. If it doesn't work for you, you aren't out that much, and you will still find BiaB useful and quite entertaining when you are not on the job. IMHO every electronic musician needs a few basic programs (1) a DAW or sequencer (like PTPro) and (2) Band-in-a-Box. Everything else is optional. YMMV. Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton  Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jul 2009
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Hate to open an old thread but...
I'm betting your old arranger was a Korg i3.
I had/have the same and it's on its last legs. I've had to open it a couple of times to replace buttons that stopped working over the past 20 years. I used to play it exclusively, but now I've got other musicians in my band so I use the Korg primarily for its ahead-of-its-time drum sequencer. I can easily pick a style, set a tempo, and I have 4 variations with 2 fills, 2 intros and 2 endings available.
The big reason I love it and still use it, is that the band will occasionally have "guest vocalists" that for some reason can't count. Or a guest horn player that extends his solo by 19 bars. With the Korg, I could easily get the drum style back on track.
I've gone through a dozen drum machines and can't find anything close (the Alesis SR18 only has 2 variations with 2 fills). BIAB appeared to be a great solution when I bought it in 2008. The CONDUCTOR ostensibly would handle my on-the-fly style changes, however it was broken when using RealDrums. I emailed the company and they confirmed the bug - but it hasn't been fixed over the past FIVE YEARS!!!
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,687
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Actually that was fixed some years ago and the Conductor works as advertised now. But, your point about vocalists and soloists not following the form is also correct. The Conductor is simply not good enough for those situations.
bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Oct 2018
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Newbie
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Hi
Old thread - never the less - thank you for a very informative posting !!
Not having played keyboard for 20 years, your posting confirmed me in not buying a arranger. Despite that the Yamaha PSR 775 sounds very good and have a lot of styles, it would become dull/boring in the long run.
- Happy playing
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 117
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Great post and summary of the major differences, thanks Bob! I realize the current architecture and design doesn't support it, but I've always wondered if there will ever be realtime mode in BIAB like on the arranger keyboards. I think it would be very cool and a major new feature and selling point for the program, appealing to a new category of players. Both BiaB and my own styles feature some with A, B, C and D subsections. Plus you can switch styles at any point in the song. I do a lot of style writing for BiaB and have done so since 1992. I have also owned a couple of arranger keyboards (a Yamaha, a Roland, and a Korg). Here are the main differences as I see them (I'll try to be fair to both). - The arranger keyboards usually are more repetitive. Some play 2 bars over and over and over again. Some tout up to 16 but that's an exaggeration as it might be bars 1, 2, 3, 4, 3, 2, 3, 5, 3, 2, 3, 4, 3, 2, 3, 6 (I've seen plenty of styles with that pattern). A BiaB style can contain hundreds of patterns. The result is BiaB will be less boring to listen to
- Since a BiaB song is entered before the song starts playing, specific patterns for specific musical situations can be programmed into the style. For example, if a V7 chord is being played at the end of a verse, and the first chord of the next verse is a I chord, BiaB can play appropriate patterns that lead from the V7 to the I. Arranger keyboards either always treat a V7 chord as if a I will follow, or ignore that common occurrence. The result is BiaB plays a more musically intelligent background that is more like real musicians would play.
- Arranger keyboards usually have only 2 to 4 drum rolls per style. BiaB can have dozens. On the other hand, the drums, bass, and other instruments in each roll are tighter on the keyboard. This depends on your preference, I prefer the BiaB concept quite a bit.
- BiaB has many more styles to choose from than any arranger keyboard. They are available from PG Music, myself, and other aftermarket vendors. So if you need a specific style for a specific song, chances are BiaB will have one. Plus say if you only have one or two cha-chas (or whatever) in your keyboard and you have 10 cha-chas in your repertoire, the keyboard is going to play the same styles over and over, BiaB has the possibility of dozens of styles in any one genre.
- BiaB has support for more chords than the arranger keyboards do. From m7b5 chords to some extended 9ths 11ths and even 13ths. Most arranger keyboards stick to the basics.
- Arranger keyboards have more elaborate introductions and endings than BiaB. At first this seems like a big advantage for the keyboards, and depending on your desires, it might be. On the other hand, we had a gig for an Arthur Murray dance studio (you take the gigs as they are offered). So I whipped up a few cha-chas on the keyboard to play in real-time. I did "Cherry Pink" with a fabulous intro on the Roland. Then I did "The More I See You" and it had that exact same fabulous intro. Later I did "Never On Sunday" with that same fabulous intro, but I wasn't sure what song I was playing at the end of the intro because it was exactly like the others.
- BiaB has up to 5 different instrument sounds, some of the arranger keyboards have more (I've seen 7). This could be an advantage for the keyboards on some songs, but others don't need that many instruments
- The interaction between the bass and all the comp parts on the arranger keyboards can be a little tighter. There are some keyboard styles I'd like to reproduce on BiaB but BiaB's brain won't handle them. But looking in the opposite direction, there are thousands of styles on BiaB that the keyboard won't handle either.
- The arranger keyboards are played live in 'real time' so you can extend the song, change the arrangement, or vamp while you talk on the mic, BiaB cannot do that as the lengths and arrangements of the songs are set in advance. There is a loop feature in BiaB but it isn't the same.
- The keyboards have a limited amount of styles, and new styles can be purchased or written by the user, but the total is only a fraction of what is available for BiaB
- When the keyboard dies, or if you need new capabilities, you have to buy a new keyboard, and that will cost you thousands of dollars. The styles I wrote for BiaB on my Atari computer in the early 1990s, still work in BiaB. Plus through the years BiaB has added quite a few improvements to the program that make it work better, and make the output much more musical. A modest upgrade fee is all that is required to get the new whistles and bells - not the thousands of dollars required for the keyboard
- Because BiaB is so dominant, it has a very active user base of users, with many people who are eager to help out the newbies on this forum and on a couple not associated with PG Music
- PG Music service, tech support, and involvement by the owner, Peter Gannon, is topnotch and I think light-years better than any you will get with a keyboard company.
IMO the advantages for BiaB far outweigh the ones for the keyboards. But it all depends on you, and how you run your performance. My advice is to buy BiaB and see if it suits you. If it works you save a lot of money on a new keyboard. If it doesn't work for you, you aren't out that much, and you will still find BiaB useful and quite entertaining when you are not on the job. IMHO every electronic musician needs a few basic programs (1) a DAW or sequencer (like PTPro) and (2) Band-in-a-Box. Everything else is optional. YMMV. Insights and incites by Notes
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 6,091
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The nice thing about BiaB is that it knows in advance what you are going to play next. For example: if you are playing a V7 chord at the end of an A or B section and the first chord of the next section is a I chord, BiaB can choose an appropriate pattern that leads to the I instead of a generic V7 pattern.
As a style writer, I can do this for many different musical situations which makes the song more like a real musician was playing.
Real-time mode wouldn't be able to know what you are going to play next.
Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 167
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Apprentice
Joined: Dec 2011
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Can someone explain what that means in musical terms?
"change the arrangement, or vamp while you talk on the mic"
I've never heard that term before, then again I'm not a real musician, I just play one with BIAB.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Vamping is simply a repeating musical phrase over and over. It's often used for an accompaniment during song intro's, or between songs etc. The purpose that Notes mentioned I think is just to avoid silence between songs.
BIAB & RB2024 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Can someone explain what that means in musical terms?
"change the arrangement, or vamp while you talk on the mic"
I've never heard that term before, then again I'm not a real musician, I just play one with BIAB. The arrangement is the order of the tune like verse, verse, chorus or bridge, verse and a tag ending which could be anything. That's the basic road map of a song but an arrangement is much more than that. If you listen to any good classic tune by anybody you'll hear the music doing a specific thing for the intro before the vocal starts, then they will be playing certain specific things behind the vocal, stuff like that. That's the musical side of an arrangement separate from the simple road map. If you have Biab set up with those things "arranged" the way you want them then go on a gig and the vocalist gets lost and changes the order of things you're screwed. An arrangement that is preset like that only works of you're the vocalist or you've been working together for years and everybody knows exactly what each other is doing. A vocalist may want me to vamp (basically repeat) or ad lib a simple chord thing while she's talking to the audience about anything. It could be our next gig or it could be an event the club is hosting. That's why if I'm playing an arranger keyboard live I can do anything I want with the song. Oh, changing keys is a big one. Maybe the vocalist has a cold and wants to do some songs in a lower key. If it's all preset then again you're screwed. Notes is absolutely correct about the limited styles in arrangers and other things and Biab can sound a lot more varied. But even with the Conductor feature you're stuck with your basic arrangement you laid out earlier. I will say this lots of acts in Vegas are singing to prerecorded tracks so there's no chance of vamping or changing anything. To me that's very boring but it's also modern show biz so there's certainly room for both approaches. All of this btw is caused by ever limited budgets so main room acts in Vegas are no longer full orchestra's they can be two keyboardists sitting in the pit triggering tracks and playing some parts live, what used to be 5 or 7 piece bands with horns turn into a trio with backing tracks or even a solo performer with tracks in other words karaoke. Sad but that's the reality of it. Others like myself hate being restricted to tracks and try to keep as much live spontaneity as possible. Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Posts: 1,796
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Expert
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In the early 70-ies traveling in Ireland at times i was asked by fiddlers etc 'give us a vamp', meaning backing them on the piano pumping chords. Reg Hall was a well known as vamping side kick for a lot of Irish dance music players in the London pub-scene. Here present on every track: Paddy in the Smoke LP ... F
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
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Update Your PowerTracks Pro Audio 2024 Today!
The Newest RealBand 2024 Update is Here!
The newest RealBand 2024 Build 5 update is now available!
Download and install this to your RealBand 2024 for updated print options, streamlined loading and saving of .SGU & MGU (BB) files, and to add a number of program adjustments that address user-reported bugs and concerns.
This free update is available to all RealBand 2024 users. To learn more about this update and download it, head to www.pgmusic.com/support.realband.htm#20245
The Band-in-a-Box® Flash Drive Backup Option
Today (April 5) is National Flash Drive Day!
Did you know... not only can you download your Band-in-a-Box® Pro, MegaPAK, or PlusPAK purchase - you can also choose to add a flash drive backup copy with the installation files for only $15? It even comes with a Band-in-a-Box® keychain!
For the larger Band-in-a-Box® packages (UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition), the hard drive backup copy is available for only $25. This will include a preinstalled and ready to use program, along with your installation files.
Backup copies are offered during the checkout process on our website.
Already purchased your e-delivery version, and now you wish you had a backup copy? It's not too late! If your purchase was for the current version of Band-in-a-Box®, you can still reach out to our team directly to place your backup copy order!
Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.
Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!
Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!
If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
Convenient Ways to Listen to Band-in-a-Box® Songs Created by Program Users!
The User Showcase Forum is an excellent place to share your Band-in-a-Box® songs and listen to songs other program users are creating!
There are other places you can listen to these songs too! Visit our User Showcase page to sort by genre, artist (forum name), song title, and date - each listing will direct you to the forum post for that song.
If you'd rather listen to these songs in one place, head to our Band-in-a-Box® Radio, where you'll have the option to select the genre playlist for your listening pleasure. This page has SoundCloud built in, so it won't redirect you. We've also added the link to the Artists SoundCloud page here, and a link to their forum post.
We hope you find some inspiration from this amazing collection of User Showcase Songs!
Congratulations to the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
We've just announced the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
There are 45 winners, each receiving a Band-in-a-Box 2024 UltraPAK! Read the official announcement to see if you've won.
Our User Showcase Forum receives more than 50 posts per day, with people sharing their Band-in-a-Box songs and providing feedback for other songs posted.
Thank you to everyone who has contributed!
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