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I was going to respond to this, but I felt defensive, as I had been pretty clear and was using typical midi jargon("thru")... other than the "grabbing"... which was confusing. So,.. anyway. Thanks for your help! and we will see where to go from here.

The mistake you are making, easy to make, is that you are thinking that the same type of connector will always be wired for the same type of output. This is not the case.

I have never encountered a Balanced headphone output in over 40 years of servicing and playing music equipments.

The TRS on a headphone jack is there so that both the L and R channel outputs, UNbalanced, can be present. The Sleeve serves as the shared ground or - terminal for both of those unbalanced channels.

When presented with proper adaptor connections to a Line Level Unbalanced Input, the Headphone output will be at the right AC signal voltage to drive that input exactly the same as when an output made for unbalanced line level is available, provided that you have turned the Volume Control on the keyboard up high enough.

As far AS "arguments" go, this is not an argument. The above is simply a fact.

--Mac

It seems that without a keyboard with a balance out anyway (our has a preamp in the headphone out that is also unbalanced).. that it's all a moot point anyway. Still, it's good to learn more about the headphone issues from your viewpoint... Still, I've heard it differently, even recently, from an electrical engineer who stated to me that they are the same conductors as 1/4 outs.... and the TRS headphones are indeed balanced.
I guess that's where I was mentioning arguement. I am no electrical engineer though, so I will stop this here. There's nothing more that I can offer on those more technical points. My only observation, on my own, is that they rarely seat very well and the static on line can sometimes come from the posts not actually being properly seated. Hmmmmm

Amy, what about all the rest of the things I posted about?
Especially the part about using the Casio as a controller?

You keep fixating on the headphone audio outs. I have said twice now that is irrelevant if you're using the Casio to play a VST like EZ Keys.

What about that?

Also, Mac is right.

Bob

Bob_ I am not sure why you are seemingly annoyed. I've addressed the issue with regard to the Casio as a controller. It is a USB only keyboard. USB latency to the back of the house would mean that we can't play live, without being out of the rhythm. (unless we buy an interface).

Fixating... sure. I am frustrated with this keyboard as I'm sure you might be if you were in my situation. But, since most ppl will not have to use this "board"... well, that's probably a good thing.

About Mac being right about a topic,.. Great!! It would just be nice if you mention the part that you believe he is correct on:.... so that I can learn, and not assume you are frustrated or being controversial...as you seem angry.

I'm not an electrical engineer either (I just make the interwebs work)

But to my knowledge every word in Mac's post is spot on, so there is no 'part' he is correct on. It was all correct.

Think of TRS as the way a wire is made (configured). It' just a jack .. it can make a difference on how those connections inside it are used by the device they plug in to.
So while a headphone wire looks like TRS (the jack part), how the wires are connected inside of it, and how they are used by the connected device, can be different.

Welcome to the forums. You can learn a lot here. I have.

The USB port would not be the latency bottleneck there.

Use of USB plus ASIO sound drivers can work very well in realtime to play VSTi or DXi software synthesizers.

I would not try to run USB "to back of house" and can't see why anyone would even desire to do it that way.

I would keep the laptop that hosts the VSTi/DXi synth selections and host program right on the stage with me and the keyboard, for reasons of usability. Sometimes you may have to be able to get at that laptop and keep those things working, for one reason.

With today's laptops, no external sound device is needed, either. The playback audio of today's internal sound devices is very good indeed, this is because of the heavy consumer interest in being able to play back audio and video.

ASIO can be utilized by simply downloading and installing the free ASIO4ALL sound drivers. This will indeed provide low latency, sometimes can get it "all the way down" to 2mS round trip.

And, yes, I do so all the time.

And at that point, the USB connect need only be long enough to go from keyboard to laptop.

Audio out from the laptop is all that need go to back of house and again, I use the earphone out jack of the laptop to drive Line Level to PA systems all the time.

But I think the difference is that I WANT to make the thing work.

Sounds to me like what amy wants is a new keyboard...

So get one.


--Mac

Amy, not angry but yes a little annoyed. I spelled out exactly how to do what you want but you're not addressing those points. I said the same thing Mac just said, you have to put a laptop on stage right next to you and all will be good. You didn't comment on that at all, you just reiterated what you said earlier about having a computer in the back of the church. Then I specifically told you about how to use the USB connection but you ignored that as well, simply saying it won't work.

Now Mac just gave you specific instructions as well.

You don't know what you're talking about Amy so I've given you plenty of info to at least start a dialog about how to do what you want but you're not responding to those specific points so yes, that's annoying.

Bob

Ian- Thanks for your listening and confirmation, as well as advice and information.

Thanks Rhary! Not sure why my friend wasn't being clear about that then, but I get what you are saying here: ie, the 2 conductors + 1 ground , do not necessarily a balance make. Thanks!

Mac - Unfortunately, it's *not* what I want that matters. It's the churches money and they are attempting to keep the budget as low as possible. We do not have the luxury of doing what we want. It would be nice though, ...on either account, certainly a stage rig at the keyboard is ideal, if you have the funds and ppl trained in how to fix issues on the spot.. another of many problems for our situation as well. I am not trying to usurp what is best for the church, so that I can play on a different piano. I think a lot of ppl take for granted how much a producer or musician spends on his/her equipment and how much effort goes into keeping that item up-to-date, maintained, properly licenced, cost of vst software, router, adapters, sequencer and more. We are doing what's best for our *church's* needs.

Mac and Bob- I mentioned that we don't own a computer for the stage and it's not our intention to purchase one. I was glad, though, to hear about how it's done as I was curious.. but you all greatfully were fully clear early on about how to use the computer to soundboard. Thanks again. Our present computer *must* remain where it is for projection and movie reasons. We'd have to buy a second one. We can't afford it.


Bob- Either by your implicit impatience or by your explicit statement that *you think* that I don't know what I'm talking about.... It's just rude. I stated (on page 2)that we are not intending to do a computer set-up on stage... and one of the many reasons why. If you are not going to read my posts, in their entirety, then why would I respond to your every question? Had you just said "Amy, you mentioned that you don't want to put a computer on stage because there's not enough room and there's not a booth in the back. Well, why is that a problem?"... Well, I would have answered that for ya and explained our unique set of circumstances as to why, as well as the financial and logistical issues to doing a rig on stage, for many reasons.

For the help I've received Thank you ... again. As for the environment of this thread... either I've been completely unclear or this is just not the best place to have this conversation.

Re-reading of the whole thread here's my understanding:

1. The church already decided against using the PX-130. Good.
2. The rest of the discussion is just for personal interest on how to use stage keyboards as a sound source when there are long runs to the FOH mixer.
3. The perception of this not being a good place to ask questions is based on several misuses of technical terminology.

a. PX-130 being referred to as a computer; quickly resolved.
b. Grabbing VSTi by a keyboard - I'm still confused by this one, although I think what Amy meant is that keyboards with synth engines on board, can play out audio output in response to MIDI; still not resolved. Amy, any MIDI device that has a 'Thru' connection merely means that the MIDI 'train' doesn't stop at that station nor get modified by that particular device in the chain. In this case, the keyboard that you would want to make sound, must be set to respond to the incoming MIDI data. If you set it as a 'thru' device, then it will sit there silently.
c. Misunderstanding and insistence that TRS connections connote that whatever device attached to them are balanced, when balanced audio merely implies the transmission mechanism.

To answer your curiosity from point 2 above, here is how large churches have typically sent audio to the FOH mixer:

Keyboard has it's own sound engine on board, that was desired in the first place-->analog audio 'snake'-->FOH Mixer somewhere mid to rear of the room.

Many setups now replace the analog audio snake with a digital audio snake, with the A/D happening close to the stage.

Setups with a more modern sound have one or more laptops (and lately iOS devices) on stage as sound sources or even orchestration/timing devices. One worship band that I mix uses Reason software to time their set - they don't have a keyboard player many times, but pads and click track are provided by Reason; pads go to FOH mix, click track to the drummer. This is for a church where most attending don't have church songs known by heart - they are curious about church - and the worship set is pre-planned from a timing standpoint.

I'm curious as to what the church ended up deciding on for the keyboard. If you want flexibility, get one with proper MIDI In/Out connectors(thru is almost never needed for a fairly simple MIDI setup like in most churches these days).

-Scott

Yay!! oh my Goodness.. Scott... THANK YOU!

If I didn't want to learn, I would *not* have been curious about other people's contemporary church set-ups and/or even asked any questions about my own situation. So.. the comments were/are very helpful and you also happen to seem to understand what's happened on the rabbit trails of this thread as well.

I apologize if I was in any way rude, to anyone. It may not be helpful in the repetition of post comments or the insistance that I *do* it their way, but I did want to hear about the set-up just in case we were ever able to accomplish it later.

Scott-Warning! Inside these subsequent brackets contain a lot of hoopla. Warning! We are not intending to do this.. I'm just hypothetically pondering different ways to jimmy-rig a set-up.... and attempting to make sure my MIDI understanding is correct now. I have other music endeavors occuring.. so to truely understand this, is far better than just fixing the issues at the church, but to get it right in my mind would fix both situations.
{{{{About point "b." : I understand, like yourself, and believe it to be the case that the keyboard would not change the actual sound of the midi signal as it does it's thru either. Here's how my mind was working: The keyboard plays the midi signal the first time --> goes to the cpu --> can get changed by software (ie- asking the computer to change the sound to another instrument) and then --> back to the keyboard midi in ...thru the keyboard --> out the keyboard. Because MIDI is so compressed and fast, this happens almost completely instantaneously. Because, we'd buy a keyboard with actual MIDI ports.. we theoretically run midi lines to the sound board without latency, since we don't have a digital snake of sorts....just analog xlr. Does that make sense? Again.. THAt is crazy hypothetical.. Someone at Sweetwater stated that this works, but truely, it's only based on having a keyboard with a sound engine and a few cords. }}}} As you said.. keeping it simple and not using the keyboard as a thru is the way to go. When you get on a limited budget, you'll run softwares off computers with old ports and ports already being used by other objects as well. This isn't ideal in anyway, but understanding it can get you a long way on a lower budget sometimes. I'm not sure that I may not have to actually use this for something else that I'm doing right now. Ha! and Yikes.

About "C.": I did not consider that headphones might Always be unbalanced, until Mac stated his experience. I was (as you have suggested here) assuming the conductor made the difference, but obviously it's something else that makes the difference, for which I hope to learn more about someday. Thank you for that. Since a gentleman in the profession stated otherwise to me or I *thought* he was stating so.... I will go back and clear up my own falacies with him, but with more knowledge. To further,.. my understanding was Also that a balance has to do with the port *and* the connector being both balanced, to keep noise off of a long line, too. We continue to have noise from the keyboard.. which I assume is the pre-amp. The adapters work as a headphone jack-> headphone to RCA adapater cable->converter box that converts RCA to XLR-> xlr to snake. The cables are all brand new as well as the converter box and analog snake.

Boy a digital/analog hybrid of a snake would make this all so much better! Thank you for letting me know about that. Wow. Huge difference that that would make, in the short term and long term.

"Keyboard has it's own sound engine on board, that was desired in the first place-->analog audio 'snake'-->FOH Mixer somewhere mid to rear of the room."
Exactly what the current plan is, for the short-term.
Long-term all of this will change more to a stage rig set-up. We are researching sequencers/vst software programs for the long-run. Thanks for the suggestion for Reason. That's what we were thinking too, or Reaper and Komplete (whichever edition of Komplete is up at that point). All of this to watch the budget.

I was "tasked" with this, because I run a SaphirePro40/Reaper set-up and keys at home.. but obviously, that does not make me an expert on stage set-ups. I am just the only one in church doing any form of digital work right now... but again... this does not necessarily make me reliable, just learning even more. This information, from everyone, is all good stuff. It's All good.

I'm researching keys at this point and will take suggestions from ya, if you have some that you love. It certainly will have to have actual MIDI, that's for sure... and hopefully a nice set of ports, in general. Certainly 1/4 outs and/or RCA outs. It just seems that all of the professional keyboards have all of this. This privia had a lot of promotions that tauted it as a professional peice of gear and that is just not true.

Thanks for your patience as you re-read through this entire post. The thread has been helpful, if not easy, and you've been kind enough not to take the time to sort through it all and discern, as well as to teach what was needed. Thank you so much.

Amy,

Here is where you still have some misunderstanding:

"he keyboard plays the midi signal the first time --> goes to the cpu --> can get changed by software (ie- asking the computer to change the sound to another instrument) and then --> back to the keyboard midi in ...thru the keyboard --> out the keyboard. Because MIDI is so compressed and fast, this happens almost completely instantaneously."

MIDI is not audio data. Period. All that it consists of is commands, when and how someone pushed buttons on some midi device, how fast they pushed, perhaps how hard and for how long. Commands. Like in a Word document, a record of what letters were pushed, but not the actual font details - which are stored outside of Word.

The CPU and Word combine the details about which letters were typed, which font was used, and combine them together to shoot to the screen - where you see what appears to be a simple document - the analog output of the combination of letters and fonts. You can make an analog hard-copy on the printer.

The computer CPU in the music sense - this is where the sound conversion from digital to analog will happen if you are using the computer as the sound source. The analog data DOES NOT travel with MIDI back to the keyboard. All that the keyboard can do, specifically this PX-130 is the following:

1. Output analog of one of the 16 types of sounds through it's jack; which in this case is a TRS jack for either headphones or to split out to L/R (which will be fine - just take Mac's advice)

2. It can connect to a computer that interprets MIDI commands over USB, then the computer is used as the sound source. Here it is a special kind of controller keyboard. Many controller keyboards also include the physical MIDI in/out jacks (and a few still have thru- but that's less common these days).

3. It MAY (and I use that cautiously) be able to control sounds for a box like the Muse Receptor/MuseBox - but don't take my word for it - those boxes would need to be able to interpret MIDI over USB, which they may not. They are really PCs with audio interfaces built in and a specialized Linux OS to do just this one thing.

That is all. There's no way to make analog audio or even digital audio travel over MIDI. So, your idea to send audio back to the stage over MIDI - sorry, that is not how it works.

MIDI is actually a serial data bus carrying only 'event' type information, no audio. Nada. Zilch. etc.

Even with the digital snake scenario I described above, the only sounds that will ever come out of the Privia PX 130 are the built in sounds. That's it. Some of the higher end Privias have great sound sets. This one is designed to be very basic. That said, for piano and electric piano, it's probably great.

My advice would be: DO NOT go towards Reason, Reaper, etc. until you have a little better understanding of what is at play with how midi works, how sound synthesis works inside a keyboard, inside a PC, etc. I merely mentioned the use of Reason by the Brian Davis band because it's a clever way for them to keep their 'show' organized and sounding full, with mostly live players (sans a keyboard player), etc.

What again is the main goal for the church? Are you trying to play accompaniment tracks live? If so, then you can do this from the back of the church without much issue. You just need a way to trigger the songs from the stage or with a helper at the FOH mixer.

Don't toss that Privia yet. I think your fear of going from 1/8 inch to XLR is that you are worried of doing this all on the jack itself. Do this: 1/8th stereo to 2x 1/4", then plug those 1/4" into either a stereo direct box to XLR, or 2 different direct boxes. You will be fine this way. You could even stand to do a little 1/8" stereo splitter out of the headphone jack on the Privia - take one to some headphones, and the other with the cable combo listed immediately above - to give you ability to monitor what's coming out of the Privia.

Midi Talk:
Knew about the midi (computer [[0/1/x]] events) vs the audio.. hence discussing the value sets of this board (Keyboard) not being general midi language. I knew that I was not discussing audio frequency, when i brought it up to the initial poster. Hence also discussing driver mapping. Thankfully, it sounds like the sequencers have the option to change the event numbers, within them. Where I'm confused, is where the conversion between midi and audio occurs...which I call the actual "interface", just because that makes sense to me to use that jargon.

Hypothetical:
"The computer CPU in the music sense - this is where the sound conversion from digital to analog will happen if you are using the computer as the sound source. The analog data DOES NOT travel with MIDI back to the keyboard."
Ok.. so.. I'm going to try to clear up the confusion here. Does the computer have to change it to audio there? Can't it continue on a *midi* path, all the way back to the keys and then change it at the sound machine interface *inside* the keyboard? Again, this is hypothetical for the sake of learning midi vs audio, etc, under the understanding that you'd be using a newer keyboard that has an actual midi to audio interface within them now. I'm under the impression that that is how keyboards are being made now. You don't need computers anymore and can run the entire digital portions of the band off the keyboard, as it is now the actual rig.

Now, back to the Privia and our church: _________________________
I believe the USB transfers both midi and audio seperately, but on the one USB line... Some of the line's bandwith (a tiny amt) is used for midi, and the rest is used for audio. This is where the USB ports make for frustrating conversations. USB is also supposed to transfer midi and audio in *both* directions. This Privia user's manual states that the keyboard sends both, but receives only midi. Totally confounding as to why that would be the case. In the end, as USB ports change (we are moving into USB 3 "age" quickly here).. and as our budget would hopefully cover expenditures today that would last over at least a 10 year period...one would think that the older drivers will become extant for this keyboard and other USB2 only keyboards. Also, a major factor in our decision to go ahead with another Keyboard. Since MIDI is standard and doesn't use drivers, this is a must for our new keys.

Your suggestions:
As to your numbers (helpful, btw):
to number 1: check.
to number 2: check, but not interested due to budget and other reasons.
to number 3: sounds far too out of my zone of knowledge


Another Option:
We were considering (for the Privia), a Roland SD-50, since it is a USB interface outbox with sounds that we like.

For Now:
"Don't toss that Privia yet. I think your fear of going from 1/8 inch to XLR is that you are worried of doing this all on the jack itself. Do this: 1/8th stereo to 2x 1/4", then plug those 1/4" into either a stereo direct box to XLR, or 2 different direct boxes. You will be fine this way."

This is our current set-up.. and we are not tossing the Privia for that reason. It's still has noise on the line, but I've read that I need to by-pass the pre-amp to get rid of it.

"You could even stand to do a little 1/8" stereo splitter out of the headphone jack on the Privia - take one to some headphones, and the other with the cable combo listed immediately above - to give you ability to monitor what's coming out of the Privia. "

Exactly what we do, to get by, in the meantime. The Privia has two headphone jacks and we use the second one in my ears, for playing, during our worship time.

While the noise is on the line, we can get by with it because it's not awful, but truely.. for the future, it needs to end... sooner than later. As well, as for podcasting, which we do of the sermon, but not the music because of this.

Amy you wrote:

"Hypothetical:
"The computer CPU in the music sense - this is where the sound conversion from digital to analog will happen if you are using the computer as the sound source. The analog data DOES NOT travel with MIDI back to the keyboard."
Ok.. so.. I'm going to try to clear up the confusion here. Does the computer have to change it to audio there? Can't it continue on a *midi* path, all the way back to the keys and then change it at the sound machine interface *inside* the keyboard? Again, this is hypothetical for the sake of learning midi vs audio, etc, under the understanding that you'd be using a newer keyboard that has an actual midi to audio interface within them now. I'm under the impression that that is how keyboards are being made now. You don't need computers anymore and can run the entire digital portions of the band off the keyboard, as it is now the actual rig."


THIS IS NOT TRUE - THE USB FROM THE PRIVIA IS MIDI ONLY. It is not an audio interface that communicates digital audio on the USB.


You also wrote:

"Now, back to the Privia and our church: _________________________
I believe the USB transfers both midi and audio seperately, but on the one USB line... Some of the line's bandwith (a tiny amt) is used for midi, and the rest is used for audio. This is where the USB ports make for frustrating conversations. USB is also supposed to transfer midi and audio in *both* directions. This Privia user's manual states that the keyboard sends both, but receives only midi. Totally confounding as to why that would be the case. In the end, as USB ports change (we are moving into USB 3 "age" quickly here).. and as our budget would hopefully cover expenditures today that would last over at least a 10 year period...one would think that the older drivers will become extant for this keyboard and other USB2 only keyboards. Also, a major factor in our decision to go ahead with another Keyboard. Since MIDI is standard and doesn't use drivers, this is a must for our new keys. "

Again the misunderstanding here is the the USB is carrying both MIDI and audio. Not true for this Privia, but true for your audio interface that you use at home. True for the Tascam US-800 interface that I use at home. However, that is not the case with this keyboard, nor most keyboards that use USB. This is the fundamental misunderstanding that you have with your whole premise.

The PX-130 is NOT a full USB audio and MIDI interface. It purely is a MIDI interface, and it may only be one direction; that being out of the keyboard.

Amy, you wrote that the Privia manual states that both audio and midi travel on the USB midi. This is not the case. Here is the manual: http://support.casio.com/pdf/008/Web_PX130E1B.pdf

It is MIDI only. See page 24 and on from there in the manual.
Very typical for USB connections on music keyboards. Very few actually communicate audio on the USB as well.

-Scott

Amy, this is just an internet forum so there's not that regular face to face interaction where you can tell from body language and tone of voice what's being said in addition to just the simple words. Words look very blunt in a forum because we're all trying to avoid writing a book here.

I'm being very friendly when I say this I'm even grinning, see <grin>. You don't know what you're talking about. The truth is not rude, an attitude can be and that is not my intention I'm simply speaking the truth as I see it.

This is a classic example of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing. You know just enough to completely and totally confuse yourself.

Scott is one of our very best guru's here. Listen to him very carefully. If you haven't completely driven Mac away, listen to him as well.

I will bow out now, you're in good hands.

Bob

I'm sure *all* of us can learn *something* new every day... even here. Thanks for the response.

Yep. The hypothetical idea is not my speaking of the Privia. I did, however, share that page with our church music leader last month and showed him how we had to use a cpu on the stage, purchase software, etc, or buy a different keyboard and we are not in the budget for an entire new rig set-up. This is how I've come to attempt to move past these offers, on the board herein, and get right down to what gaps of knowledge that I need to fill. One is the question about my own set-up at home.

The Privia is being used to the extent that *we* can use it, unless someone here on the board wants to donate the funds for a cpu, some software, an interface, some wires and maybe a belkin type of converter box too, since we only have an analog snake. {shrug} That has been clearly confirmed to me, by your clarifications.... and your comments have been most helpful about that. Thank you!

Amy,

You wrote:

"Now, back to the Privia and our church: _________________________
I believe the USB transfers both midi and audio seperately, but on the one USB line... Some of the line's bandwith (a tiny amt) is used for midi, and the rest is used for audio. This is where the USB ports make for frustrating conversations. USB is also supposed to transfer midi and audio in *both* directions. This Privia user's manual states that the keyboard sends both, but receives only midi. Totally confounding as to why that would be the case. In the end, as USB ports change (we are moving into USB 3 "age" quickly here).. and as our budget would hopefully cover expenditures today that would last over at least a 10 year period...one would think that the older drivers will become extant for this keyboard and other USB2 only keyboards. Also, a major factor in our decision to go ahead with another Keyboard. Since MIDI is standard and doesn't use drivers, this is a must for our new keys. "


Note that in there you stated that the manual for this particular Privia stated that it's says that it sends 'both'. The manual does not state that. Only midi.

I think that what has you confused is that in your home setup, yes, USB is used to communicate both audio and MIDI data. Not so with this keyboard, and not so with nearly every other keyboard on the market. I can only think of a few keyboards that do this, there was one from Line6, but it was unweighted and a 37 key controller and M-Audio had an audio interface built into one of their series, if I recall correctly.

This is actually a moot point. You can't easily/cheaply send USB data 300' to/from the stage to FOH mixer location where the computer is located. You would be better to spend the money it would take to have a keyboard with audio I/O that communicates over USB, on either a laptop to put on stage and run ASIO4ALL like Mac suggested (with the same type of cabling/direct box setup I suggested), or a keyboard that has a broader sound set on-board.

Let's get right down to a solution that will work - what sounds are you needing, apart from what this PX-130 can provide, which are necessary for your worship experience at your church?

I've done some looking online for audio demos of the PX-130. Here's one to watch with some great playing and demos at least one of the acoustic piano, one electric piano and a piano/string layer. Based on this audio demo, IMO, the PX-130 has killer acoustic piano and certainly servicable electric piano and layered piano string sounds.

Here's another that shows that the PX-130 is actually a decent stage keyboard. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJDK4DW__1Q

Note that the audio quality you hear in each of these had to have come from one of the headphone jacks.

Lots of other demos on YouTube for this particular keyboard.

What sounds are you looking for that it doesn't already provide?

Don't let the headphone out only cause you to think that it can't be used. Your church almost certainly has some direct boxes that you could split the output from one of the headphone jacks to a L/R 1/4" plugs to go into two different direct boxes to feed the analog snake. However, I have to say that 300' is a long run; that's a heckuva long distance - a whole football field.

-Scott