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#211251 - 08/03/13 07:14 PM [User Showcase] NOT IN MY DREAMS
Registered: 12/05/11
Posts: 7055
Loc: GA USA
Janice & Bud Offline
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Registered: 12/05/11
Posts: 7055
Loc: GA USA
NOT IN MY DREAMS

Another one of my long stories.... Mount Blue is a mountain visible from Berthoud Pass in CO. We used to always stop there on the way to Steamboat Springs to stretch and enjoy the beautiful views. I was thinking about mountain passes, ended up writing the first version of these lyrics a few weeks ago and gave them to Janice to see what she could do with them. She came back with a different but I thought very cool chord structure and when she sang it I knew the melody and her phrasing deserved more than just a knock off arrangement.

I had gone with just three verses, no bridge and no chorus and I wanted to add a refrain. The refrain was a one liner and it concerned me as it didn’t rhyme with any of the verse lines. So I contacted Noel, AKA “song structure miester” and asked what he thought. He suggested doubling the refrain line, making the first half of the second line a rest and not worrying about the rhyme as in “Blowin’ in the Wind.” He also suggested making part of the refrain the song title. This along with his other suggestion put me on a better path and I very much appreciate the input.

I had put together Realtracks using "swing feel" tracks and they just seemed to create a tension in the song that I didn’t like although that’s the "feel" I usually work with. I redid it all and Janice tweaked the melody to reflect the changes. Now it was starting to sound like it needed a better arrangement than I feel comfortable with. I’m OK with arranging blues, bluegrass, celtic, Western Swing and some Americana but not with an even feel ballad.

I asked Floyd for help and he agreed to school me on how to arrange a song that is designed completely around supporting the vocal. I kept coming back to him with arrangement examples where I tried to find the perfect fill, the perfect short solo, i.e., I kept trying to let the pickers standout and shine. Good for blues and bluegrass...not so good for the type of production Floyd envisioned where the vocalist does all the “shining.” Bottom line? Through his patience, time, lyric suggestions, examples and constructive criticisms I managed to, I believe, achieve the goal of surrounding the vocal with the non-intrusive support it demanded. I’ve very grateful for Floyd sticking with me through this and I’m very glad we found this community.

Janice, Vocal: Rode NT1 mic interfaced to iMac Blue via USB Blue Icicle.
All Realtracks
Bass: 518
Drums: N’ville even 8’s
R Guitar 1: 365
R Guitar 2: 2051
Piano 1: 1728
Piano 2: 1277
Reso Guitar: 377
Fiddle: 409
Mixing/Effects: Garageband/BIAB interface


Not in my Dreams
 
I feel hope rising with the sun
Alone at daybreak on Mount Blue
As the mist begins to slowly fade
There's a path ahead without you
 
I won't be seeing you in my dreams
(rest---) Not in my dreams
 
So now comes the end of part one
I grew weary of having to pretend
Go and live with your choices
All I wanted was a lover and a friend
 
I won't be seeing you in my dreams
(rest---) Not in my dreams

In the end all we'll have is memories
I'll choose the ones of good hearts and times
No fears, no crying, no tears, no fighting
A peace - that takes a lifetime to find
 
 I won't be seeing you in my dreams
(rest---) Not in my dreams
 
I won't be seeing you in my dreams
(rest---) Not in my dreams


Edited by Janice & Bud (08/03/13 07:24 PM)
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#211261 - 08/03/13 09:24 PM [User Showcase] Re: NOT IN MY DREAMS [Re: Janice & Bud]
Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 11994
Loc: Hamlin NY
MarioD Offline
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Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 11994
Loc: Hamlin NY
The dynamic duel does it again!

I’m glad you kept working on this and that you got the help you needed to take it over the top!

This is a winner and congratulations to all that participated in this endeavor!
_________________________
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#211271 - 08/03/13 11:23 PM [User Showcase] Re: NOT IN MY DREAMS [Re: Janice & Bud]
Registered: 12/06/05
Posts: 4047
Loc: 80 Mi North of Sacramento CA
seeker Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/06/05
Posts: 4047
Loc: 80 Mi North of Sacramento CA
Janice & Bud,

Janice, this was a very tough song for you to do.
Fantastic job... Ya Bud, your parts are very important.

You folks step outside of you comfort zone and still deliver.

Bit of true humor..

On the next to last chorus,
when the rest hit me, it was about 20 seconds.

Thought oh crap....then it finished...
My net connection on weekends sucks. it simple stopped for
precisely rest time for 15-20 secons...

Thanks to both of you for your hard work and sharing!
_________________________
FrankB

Down The Street vs2015 12-03-2014
Win7, AMD QuadA8-5500,16GB,2TeraHD, Komplete 10
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#211315 - 08/04/13 12:37 PM [User Showcase] Re: NOT IN MY DREAMS [Re: MarioD]
Registered: 06/22/12
Posts: 2868
Loc: Karlsruhe, Germany
boehm Offline
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Registered: 06/22/12
Posts: 2868
Loc: Karlsruhe, Germany
Hi Janice and Bud,
Originally Posted By: MarioD
This is a winner and congratulations to all that participated in this endeavor!


Great vocals as always.

Guenter
_________________________
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Latest Song: What You Desire

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#211345 - 08/04/13 07:43 PM [User Showcase] Re: NOT IN MY DREAMS [Re: boehm]
Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 9154
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
VideoTrack Offline
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Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 9154
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Love the nice clean guitar and the crystal clear vocals. Great job, (as usual!)

Trevor
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#211361 - 08/04/13 09:53 PM [User Showcase] Re: NOT IN MY DREAMS [Re: Janice & Bud]
Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7690
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Pat Marr Offline
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Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7690
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
that's an interesting chord sequence, especially the use and placement of the rest. Where'd that idea come from? I really like songs that don't sound like anything I've ever heard before.

To me, the lyrics are quite poetic and involving.. they put me right in the story. The mountain pass with its lifting fog serves as a great metaphor for the clear-headedness that accompanies a clean break with a situation that was muddying the water

As usual, the mix is crystal clear, and Janice's lovely voice is framed perfectly by the backup band. Its hard to imagine that she just sings that well that easily, without requiring the tech help most of us require.

I applaud the collaboration too! The interaction of creative minds is an amazing thing to behold!

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#211378 - 08/05/13 03:10 AM [User Showcase] Re: NOT IN MY DREAMS [Re: Pat Marr]
Registered: 02/11/10
Posts: 534
Loc: Grand Junction, Colorado USA
Achordocaster Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 02/11/10
Posts: 534
Loc: Grand Junction, Colorado USA
I agree with Pat!

I like the progression... I wasn't sure about the melody, but the more she sings the more I love it! grin

Excellent job & collaboration,

Greg

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#211455 - 08/05/13 03:38 PM [User Showcase] Re: NOT IN MY DREAMS [Re: Janice & Bud]
Registered: 12/05/11
Posts: 7055
Loc: GA USA
Janice & Bud Offline
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Registered: 12/05/11
Posts: 7055
Loc: GA USA
Mario, thanks and, yes, it took a lot -- so glad Noel and Floyd helped.

Frank, appreciate it -- yep waaaay outa the comfort zone.

Guenter, thanks -- that means a lot to Janice.

Trevor, thanks -- Floyd was very helpful with getting the two guitars to work together

Pat, thank you for noting the metaphor -- that was precisely what I had in mind. And thanks regarding comments on Janice's vocal. No punch-ins. Two takes.

Greg, thanks -- gotta be honest and say I was wondering about the progression and melody also. i watched her build it and it still took some getting used to!
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#211456 - 08/05/13 04:14 PM [User Showcase] Re: NOT IN MY DREAMS [Re: Janice & Bud]
Registered: 03/02/13
Posts: 3665
Loc: Helsinki, Finland
dani48 Offline
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Registered: 03/02/13
Posts: 3665
Loc: Helsinki, Finland
Hi, Janice & Bud !

I don´t have the slightest clue
how you do these things but
both vocal and bt sounds very pro to me !
Very enjoyable end result !

Cheers
Dani

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#211635 - 08/07/13 06:19 PM [User Showcase] Re: NOT IN MY DREAMS [Re: Janice & Bud]
Registered: 07/15/12
Posts: 1626
gruverider Offline
Expert

Registered: 07/15/12
Posts: 1626
to my ears your hard work paid off, the chord progression and melody you've written here are fantastic! and you have arranged it to feature the vocal perfectly, a vocal performance by the way that is beyond reproach!

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#211676 - 08/08/13 11:05 AM [User Showcase] Re: NOT IN MY DREAMS [Re: Janice & Bud]
Registered: 04/01/11
Posts: 974
Loc: Maryland
SpaceDog Offline
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Registered: 04/01/11
Posts: 974
Loc: Maryland
Janice and Bud,
Very nice job. The atypical song structure chordal harmony suit the subject very well. Thanks for sharing.
SD

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#211708 - 08/08/13 03:20 PM [User Showcase] Re: NOT IN MY DREAMS [Re: Janice & Bud]
Registered: 08/10/12
Posts: 6871
Loc: Florida
floyd jane Offline
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Registered: 08/10/12
Posts: 6871
Loc: Florida
Janice and Bud,

Not in your dreams???? Speak for yourself. I wake up in the morning hearing this song. It is HAUNTINGLY beautiful.

The lyric is POETIC. Usually, when it comes to songwriting, that is the kiss of death. Not in this case. A poetic lyric - that works!

The melody is gorgeous. Not a melody that grabs you the first time you hear it - because it goes places that you don't expect. But once you have "caught up" (because YOU are the one who is out of step) - it is as poetic as the lyric.

The instrumentation is a perfect build. A pedestal on which to place that absolute GEM of a vocal. Lady... you should be a STAR!!! I wish I owned a record company - so I could sign you.

Great job, guys! (like we'd expect anything less????)

floyd
_________________________
125+ BIAB Songs

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#211745 - 08/09/13 12:36 PM [User Showcase] Re: NOT IN MY DREAMS [Re: Janice & Bud]
Registered: 03/18/04
Posts: 6513
Loc: South Louisiana
Danny C. Offline
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Registered: 03/18/04
Posts: 6513
Loc: South Louisiana
Very late to the party, not sure how or why I did not listen until now . . . but happy I finally made it!

You guys just cranking out wonderfully mastered, performed and produced tracks.

Later,
_________________________
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www.dannycampo.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Danny-Campo/379776252109306?skip_nax_wizard=true

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#211777 - 08/09/13 05:38 PM [User Showcase] Re: NOT IN MY DREAMS [Re: Janice & Bud]
Registered: 06/17/10
Posts: 1704
Loc: Canyon Lake, TX
Steve Young Offline
Expert

Registered: 06/17/10
Posts: 1704
Loc: Canyon Lake, TX
Janice and Bud,

You did it again! Another winner. Very haunting melody, well sung. I like the unusual chord progression. I believe I will have to listen to this one many times!

Steve
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Steve Young
Music
"In order to compose, all you need to do is remember a tune that nobody else has thought of." - Robert Schumann

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#213023 - 08/24/13 09:23 AM [User Showcase] Re: NOT IN MY DREAMS [Re: Janice & Bud]
Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 14772
Loc: Australia
Noel96 Offline
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Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 14772
Loc: Australia
Hi Janice and Bud,

The minute Janice started singing, one word popped into my head and didn't leave until the song ended.



I have to say that the two of you are an outstanding partnership. With Janice's sublime singing and Bud's artistry with production, your songs are aural ambrosia. This one is no exception!

Now for the criticisms ...

What this about "Song structure meister"???????? LOLOLOL!!!! I'd like to go ROTFLMAO but my less than youthful joints no longer let me do that so I'll just have to settle for a hearty chuckle with a few LOLs. You know, I really didn't do that much to help you get a great song. It was already shiningly excellent when I listened to it!

All the best,
Noel

P.S. Sorry I'm so very late to get to this one. Life's been pulling me hither and thither for the last couple of weeks smile


Edited by Noel96 (08/25/13 07:04 AM)
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#213104 - 08/25/13 11:42 AM [User Showcase] Re: NOT IN MY DREAMS [Re: Janice & Bud]
Registered: 12/05/11
Posts: 7055
Loc: GA USA
Janice & Bud Offline
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Registered: 12/05/11
Posts: 7055
Loc: GA USA
Thanks Dani, Gruverider, SD, Floyd, Danny, Steve and Noel!

Thanks for the encouragement regarding the different melody and the poetic lyrics -- as someone told me poetic lyrics can be the "kiss of death" in song wink Another shout out to Noel for the refrain suggestion and to Floyd for using the song as a vehicle for teaching me how to forget hot licks and just support the vocal on a tune like this. Believe me, he is a patient man!
_________________________


Check out our BiaB SoundCloud songs!
J&B YouTube Sampler
J&B Website
Our album "All Over The Map" is on Apple Music, Spotify and others.

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#213111 - 08/25/13 03:52 PM [User Showcase] Re: NOT IN MY DREAMS [Re: Janice & Bud]
Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 6258
Guitarhacker Offline
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Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 6258
I like many things about this project.

I do find the structure to be a bit awkward.

Lines one and two work fine, but the odd chord choices in 3 & 4 kinda paint you into a corner. The end of the verse is left unresolved and takes the first part of the refrain to resolve...and finally it resolves with the title line.

I felt the title line could have been better served as the first line to a really nice chorus.

It is totally possible to have a vocal focused song and still have instrumental fills and solo's that shine.

Allison K and Union Station pull that off all the time.

The structure of the song is a bit off normal and that kinda throws me off a bit on really liking this song. I know some folks will argue that it's fine like it is. I'm just pointing out my opinion. I think it could be better than what it is.... with a few structural changes and perhaps a real chorus in it.

Before you go off on me, I have a few songs that are "abnormal" in structure, and in speaking with the writers in Nashville, I have been prompted to re-write those songs as well..... One has no chorus but simply a bridge and that really doesn't work in the N-ville town.....

The song reminds me a lot of the 60's folk singers and I grew up on that kind of stuff so I'm really liking where this could go.
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Add nothing that adds nothing to the music

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#213164 - 08/26/13 11:12 AM [User Showcase] Re: NOT IN MY DREAMS [Re: Janice & Bud]
Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7690
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Pat Marr Offline
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Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7690
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Quote:
Before you go off on me, I have a few songs that are "abnormal" in structure, and in speaking with the writers in Nashville, I have been prompted to re-write those songs as well..... One has no chorus but simply a bridge and that really doesn't work in the N-ville town.....


<opinion>

With all due respect to Nashville, I think that the predefined song formula required to sell there inhibits true creativity and leads to cookie cutter songwriting. We often hear people complaining that all music sounds the same these days... IMO that's part of the reason why.

One advantage of a forum like this is that people aren't bound by the Nashville constraints. They can experiment and try something truly different... indeed, something that WOULDN'T fly in Nashville. Wouldn't THAT be a breath of fresh air?

Which, by the way, is exactly the phrase I would use to describe this song! It broke all of the Nashville rules and still worked! In fact it worked WELL (as in AWESOME)

A song that appeals to me immediately loses its appeal just as quickly. A song that requires me to hear it multiple times and thoughtfully consider what the writer was doing.. THOSE songs stay with me forever.

In summary, it goes without saying that Nashville is one of the few money markets for songwriters. As such, an awareness of what works there has real value. But Nashville does not DEFINE value. Where creativity is concerned, true value is defined by the ability to make something NEW work.

By that definition, Bud and Janice have created something of true value in this song.

I would love to see more true creativity in this forum and less peer pressure to define excellence in terms of any genre

</opinion>


standard disclaimer:
just because its my opinion doesn't mean you have to agree with it. What's YOUR opinion?

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#213405 - 08/30/13 09:16 AM [User Showcase] Re: NOT IN MY DREAMS [Re: Guitarhacker]
Registered: 12/05/11
Posts: 7055
Loc: GA USA
Janice & Bud Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/05/11
Posts: 7055
Loc: GA USA
Originally Posted By: Guitarhacker
I like many things about this project.

I do find the structure to be a bit awkward.

Lines one and two work fine, but the odd chord choices in 3 & 4 kinda paint you into a corner. The end of the verse is left unresolved and takes the first part of the refrain to resolve...and finally it resolves with the title line.

I felt the title line could have been better served as the first line to a really nice chorus.

It is totally possible to have a vocal focused song and still have instrumental fills and solo's that shine.

Allison K and Union Station pull that off all the time.

The structure of the song is a bit off normal and that kinda throws me off a bit on really liking this song. I know some folks will argue that it's fine like it is. I'm just pointing out my opinion. I think it could be better than what it is.... with a few structural changes and perhaps a real chorus in it.

Before you go off on me, I have a few songs that are "abnormal" in structure, and in speaking with the writers in Nashville, I have been prompted to re-write those songs as well..... One has no chorus but simply a bridge and that really doesn't work in the N-ville town.....

The song reminds me a lot of the 60's folk singers and I grew up on that kind of stuff so I'm really liking where this could go.


Thanks for your comments and I never "go off on folks" -- at least not on public forums smile

I think virtually all of your comments would be spot on if our intent had been to write a commercially viable song. However that is about as far from our goals as you can get. After years of playing in bluegrass bands we are just enjoying stretching out with BIAB and exploring new genres -- and experimenting.

Our song writing consists of me writing some lyrics and giving them to Janice to see what she can come up with chord structure and melody wise. And her approach? Well, she just says "I just sang it like it felt" and we realize that has the distinct possibility of lowering broad appeal. When it comes to acoustic blues, western swing and bluegrass I'm completely comfortable with my production skills -- did that for nearly 40 years -- but the instrumental support and mixing of songs out of those genres (particularly the use of electric instruments and drums) is a work in progress for me -- and as I mentioned in my original post I am very grateful for the mentoring that I'm receiving in this area.

Regarding Union Station's productions, they are masterful. There is a blurb on my website about Randy Howard whom we played/recorded with for years and was our best friend until his untimely passing. Randy was Alison's mentor and she dedicated an album to him. We had the opportunity to share the stage with her at a benefit for Randy and we discussed their production goals, etc. I'll never approach their production skills but in all of our bluegrass, swing and blues songs I've posted here I've attempted to piece together tasteful "hot" licks for fills and breaks while not forgetting Janice's vocal. I'll never be able to do it like Union Station or my other favorite The Del McCoury Band. I try and listen to them every time I get ready to mix -- just to get those levels, etc., in mind. But....on this song I just wanted the vocal to dominate and hang out almost alone. And that's where Floyd helped me tremendously with the finger picking guitar, then the drums and finally the piano on the last verse.

I'm not defensive as I sincerely welcome and solicit comments. I just wanted to try and give some context for the production. Trite as it is, "nothing ventured -- nothing gained."

Bud
_________________________


Check out our BiaB SoundCloud songs!
J&B YouTube Sampler
J&B Website
Our album "All Over The Map" is on Apple Music, Spotify and others.

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#213409 - 08/30/13 09:38 AM [User Showcase] Re: NOT IN MY DREAMS [Re: Janice & Bud]
Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 6258
Guitarhacker Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 6258
The bad thing about the internet is that we have only written words to go by. It is very easy to misunderstand a written comment, and very difficult at times to convey the proper and intended message in this format.

that said....

As I listen to songs here and in other places, I often choose not to comment. I will say nothing before I would ever make a disparaging comment. I understand that most songwriters look at their songs as their "babies" (I know I do) and you never insult a baby in front of it's mother..... right?

I comment on music to try to be constructive and encouraging and from my honest, ( and hopefully tactfully said ) point of view.

I understand the aspect of writing to a non-commercial POV. I often do this, and based on my record of placing songs commercially with publishers, the vast majority of my songs seem to fall into this same category.

I have heard many good tunes from you guys and the production and professionalism you bring are always a joy to hear. I didn't intend to slam this song by saying it didn't fit the standard mold. I heard in it a few places that I immediately thought .... hummmmmmm , perhaps I would not have done it that way, because it painted the writer into a corner musically. I hate when I do that in my writing and getting out of that corner, while not impossible often requires going down a different road than the listener is expecting... again, not necessarily a bad thing......

I'll just shut up now before I paint myself into a corner.... suffice it to say I do enjoy the music you guys write and record.
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