|
Log in to post
|
Print Thread |
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502
Veteran
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502 |
Couldn't remember the univ or the name of the study I wanted to cite when typing the above post. Found it, though. Study proves listeners want hits, not deep cuts. A new study from academia reinforces something successful programmers have known since the advent of top 40 radio in the 1950s: listeners prefer the hits. Conducted by Washington University’s Olin Business School, “The Same Old Song: The Power of Familiarity in Music Choice” finds consumers pick music they’re familiar with — even though they believe they’d prefer less familiar music. For those interesed, the full .pdf is below: http://apps.olin.wustl.edu/faculty/goodman/same%20old%20song.pdf Food for thought that might sway some opinions on the subject but even if not, might cause some thinking about same. --Mac
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,913
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,913 |
This has evolved into an arrangement discussion, but in reading the OP's orignal post, it started as a discussion of song length.
I highly recommend Pat Pattison's free Berklee songwriting course offered through Coursera.org.
It's mostly a lyric writing class, with Pat expounding on various topics, some of which are very pertinent to Guitarhacker's questions.
Pat has this one idea he calls 'the boxes', wherein he describes songs with lyrics should have about 3 boxes, or elements of a story.
As you progress from the first verse through the last, each of the story elements should fit into the next one presented - that is the succeeding story element should use the previous element, with a new detail or twist added so that what is presented as an idea can 'contain' the previous idea. The final box should be a big enough idea to 'contain' the previous two boxes.
Anyways, you might still be able to sign up for the course - it begins October 14th. I am taking it again just to absorb more of the content.
-Scott
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502 |
I should hope that the length consideration should be part of the arranging...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,913
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,913 |
I should hope that the length consideration should be part of the arranging...
Well, I guess it depends on the order of songwriting operations for the particular writer. I tend to write and edit lyrics first. Then the # of verses, # of chorus sections, pre-chorus length, intro length etc. becomes much more elementary. At least, this is what works for me - I realize that there are writers who write the music first, and then add words after the fact. However, in an incredibly informal and unscientific manner, I would say that most of the folks that I have talked to in the past that are prolific (intentional) songwriters that involve lyrics tend to have lyrics ideas and their story to tell, ahead of melody or chord patterns, etc. This discussion comes up always in the February Album Writing Month discussion boards every year. Here's the one that riffed on this theme this past year. http://fawm.org/forums/topic/550/For this part of songwriting, the Pat Pattison class which I mentioned above and a few others on this forum highly endorse, is a nicely compact and helpful course and it's the best price - Free. The first post of this thread doesn't mention how many instrument parts in any fashion. It's about verses, choruses, etc. In my brain, arrangement decisions are more of a task in 'the vertical', not so much the time axis of the song. What are the dynamics like, how do I build them, does the song beg for brass parts, does a walking bass-line seem appropriate for the end of the chorus, should the piano part run only in the first 2 verses and then after the chorus disappear until the outro, does a train-beat drum pattern fit the feel, etc. This has been what I've understood arrangement to be but I'm not saying that it's 100% correct or that there's a correct definition of arranging. Then there are production decisions - what and how much reverb belongs, if any, on the vocals, the various parts, etc. Would there be a useful effect to take a part from mono in the verses and expand it to stereo in the chorus sections, etc. Sometimes, when I get to this, I'll hear a verse that's really not adding to the meaning of the song - it sits outside 'the boxes' and can be trimmed, or maybe there's some lyrics I already edited which just seem like they make more sense than some that I've got in there already. So, again, I would highly recommend taking the Freebie Berklee College of Music / Pat Pattison course to answer the kinds of questions asked in the original post of this thread. For easy one-click access: https://www.coursera.org/course/songwritingSince it starts in less than a week, it might not allow new attendees, but you can add yourself to be watchlisted for the course.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502 |
When composing, I tend to work from the standpoint of development.
So length is dictated by the type and amount of development spent on the thing.
There are other factors, of course.
For example, sometimes I find I've developed in a wrong direction, or developed too quickly, or developed not enough, etc.
I think that there are many different ways that one can think about it, work it, different approaches that can still lead towards the same goal in the end.
I know a lady who just simply seems to pop up with it all at once, and a lot of her stuff leaves me in awe.
--Mac
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 9,323
Veteran
|
|
OP
Veteran
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 9,323 |
Back in the 60's and probably even earlier, the rules were the song could not exceed 2:30 in length or it risked not being played on radio.
Some of the bands made 2 versions...album cuts and radio cuts to get around the rules. The 45 was the radio cut.
Now, the rules are a bit different. Songs can be longer but the SHALL NOT EXCEED length has moved out to 4 minutes. Most still fall in the 2:30 to 3:00 length.
The new rules include: (or so "they" say)
Intro not longer than 13 seconds. Shorter is better.
Be into the chorus before 60 seconds
Keep it under 4 minutes max...less is better.
Keep it uptempo, (despite the fact that the majority of hits are ballads)
It must sound "radio ready" which means professionally done. (this one is true) The people listening and making the decisions have no imagination and no idea of what a song could be,,,,so the song should have the parts in it...intro, guitar, piano breaks worked out and polished, singers that sound like the stars, and the entire song should sound like it is ready to go on the radio "as is".
I don't know how many times I have heard these things repeated ad-nausium at songwriter workshops and seminars. Some are true, some are good advice and some not.
Of course, the rules are there but established artists can set or break the rules as they see fit depending on their clout.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502 |
"It is essential to know the rules and practice following them before the ability to break a rule with impunity can be obtained."
And I'd add to that, "If you break a rule, make good and sure that you break that rule for a darn good reason!"
Those who perceive that rules like these are made top-down and for arbitrary reasons fail to grasp that these things actually evolved over time as the industry found out what people listened to and what they didn't. It is indeed market-driven.
Your audience dictates what they want to hear and how they want to hear it.
If you've gotta tie 'em to the barstools or lock the doors in order to keep 'em in there listening to you, rethink.
--Mac
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 9,323
Veteran
|
|
OP
Veteran
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 9,323 |
excellent post Mac.
the rules are the rules for a reason.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Update Your PowerTracks Pro Audio 2024 Today!
The Newest RealBand 2024 Update is Here!
The newest RealBand 2024 Build 5 update is now available!
Download and install this to your RealBand 2024 for updated print options, streamlined loading and saving of .SGU & MGU (BB) files, and to add a number of program adjustments that address user-reported bugs and concerns.
This free update is available to all RealBand 2024 users. To learn more about this update and download it, head to www.pgmusic.com/support.realband.htm#20245
The Band-in-a-Box® Flash Drive Backup Option
Today (April 5) is National Flash Drive Day!
Did you know... not only can you download your Band-in-a-Box® Pro, MegaPAK, or PlusPAK purchase - you can also choose to add a flash drive backup copy with the installation files for only $15? It even comes with a Band-in-a-Box® keychain!
For the larger Band-in-a-Box® packages (UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition), the hard drive backup copy is available for only $25. This will include a preinstalled and ready to use program, along with your installation files.
Backup copies are offered during the checkout process on our website.
Already purchased your e-delivery version, and now you wish you had a backup copy? It's not too late! If your purchase was for the current version of Band-in-a-Box®, you can still reach out to our team directly to place your backup copy order!
Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.
Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!
Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!
If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
Convenient Ways to Listen to Band-in-a-Box® Songs Created by Program Users!
The User Showcase Forum is an excellent place to share your Band-in-a-Box® songs and listen to songs other program users are creating!
There are other places you can listen to these songs too! Visit our User Showcase page to sort by genre, artist (forum name), song title, and date - each listing will direct you to the forum post for that song.
If you'd rather listen to these songs in one place, head to our Band-in-a-Box® Radio, where you'll have the option to select the genre playlist for your listening pleasure. This page has SoundCloud built in, so it won't redirect you. We've also added the link to the Artists SoundCloud page here, and a link to their forum post.
We hope you find some inspiration from this amazing collection of User Showcase Songs!
Congratulations to the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
We've just announced the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
There are 45 winners, each receiving a Band-in-a-Box 2024 UltraPAK! Read the official announcement to see if you've won.
Our User Showcase Forum receives more than 50 posts per day, with people sharing their Band-in-a-Box songs and providing feedback for other songs posted.
Thank you to everyone who has contributed!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forums66
Topics81,582
Posts734,690
Members38,499
| |
Most Online2,537
Jan 19th, 2020
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Dansk
Deutsch - Windows
Español
Français - Windows
Italiano - Windows
Nederlands
Polski
Português
Svenskt
русский
Japanese
Simplified Chinese
Traditional Chinese
Korean