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Thank you to all our veteran’s for your service and sacrifice. You protect our country, people, freedom and our way of life.

My father served in the Korean War and was awarded the Purple Heart for the severe injuries he received in a mortar blast.

Thank you to all of the PG family who’ve served.

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I agree Bob! I just hope we do even more than thank them...I hope we make sure they have adequate physical & mental healthcare...make sure they and their families are not cut from government assistance like food stamps when they need help...then make sure we do everything in our power to avoid needless wars and military actions. We need to appreciate and honor them and take care of them year-round and not just on this day!

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I'm with on this Bob.A debt we can not fully repay
Wyndham

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A BIG +1


Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.

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That's good, guys.

Listen, if'n ya'll send cash,

Wrap it up real good.


grin

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US Army 1972-74, Munich, Germany, Linguist and intelligence editor. Thank God for good and faithful warriors. "They also serve who only stand and wait."


"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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Originally Posted By: bobcflatpicker
Thank you to all our veteran’s for your service and sacrifice. You protect our country, people, freedom and our way of life. Thank you to all of the PG family who’ve served.


I'll chime in to echo the above.
Those who've served are truly the 1%ers.

Carry on....

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Those US citizens who would like to help Veterans might want to help us correct situations such as this one.

These are, after all, one of the freedoms we served and fought to preserve, only to find them being taken away from us at the whim of beaurocrats and not the codified law of the land.

Quote:

Two Baptist chaplains said they were forced out of a Veterans Affairs chaplain training program after they refused orders to stop quoting the Bible and to stop praying in the name of Jesus.

When the men objected to those demands, they were subjected to ridicule and harassment that led to one of the chaplains leaving the program and the other being ejected, according to a federal lawsuit filed Friday.

The Conservative Baptist Association of America is suing Secretary of Veterans Affairs Eric Shinseki; the group’s suit alleges two of its chaplains were openly ridiculed by the leader of the San Diego-based VA-DOD Clinical Pastoral Education Center program.

'Not only was the treatment these men received inappropriate, it was also a violation of federal law and the religious freedom guarantees of the First Amendment.'

- Attorney John Wells

“Not only was the treatment these men received inappropriate, it was also a violation of federal law and the religious freedom guarantees of the First Amendment,” said John Wells, an attorney representing the Colorado-based denomination.

“No American choosing to serve in the armed forces should be openly ridiculed for his Christian faith,” he said, calling it one of the most blatant cases of religious discrimination he has ever seen.

Lt. Commander Dan Klender, a Navy chaplain, and Maj. Steven Firtko, a retired Army chaplain, had enrolled in the VA’s Clinical Pastoral Education Center program in San Diego last year.

The one-year training program is required for anyone wanting to work as a chaplain in a VA hospital. VA chaplains differ from other military chaplains in that they are limited to working in VA hospitals.

The program, which has affiliates around the nation, is open to chaplains of all religious faiths. However, applicants must have completed master-level seminary work.

There were seven chaplains enrolled in the San Diego program led by Nancy Dietsch, a Department of Veterans Affairs employee with a history of antagonistic behavior toward evangelicals, Wells said.

“She’s been very, very critical of Christians,” Wells said in a telephone interview. “Instead of teaching anything dealing with faith issues, she’s dealing with a holistic, humanistic approach. It’s the idea that the spirit comes from within.”

The VA did not return telephone calls, but they did release a statement to NBC San Diego. The VA said the two men were “bullying other classmates and refusing to honor other faith groups.”

Wells said the chaplains were subjected to anti-Christian bigotry.

“And that would be putting it mildly,” he said. “A lot of these so-called liberals are very liberal with their own ideas, but when it comes to somebody else’s ideas, they don’t want to hear it.

Among the allegations listed in the lawsuit:

1. Dietsch told the chaplains that it was the policy of the VA in general and her in particular that chaplains should not pray in the name of Jesus.

2. During a classroom discussion on faith, Firtko said “faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” Dietsch told the chaplain he was not allowed to quote from the Bible in her classroom.

3. In October 2012, Dietsch told the class she believes God could be either man or woman. When Firtko referred to “The Lord’s Prayer,” she “angrily pounded her fist on the table and shouted, ‘Do not quote Scripture in this class.’”

4. In the aftermath of the Sandy Hook school shooting, Klender mentioned during a group discussion on counseling that he would tell a parent that “there is evil in the world.” Dietsch retorted, “You don’t actually believe that do you?”

5. In January 2013, she told the chaplains “there is no room in the program for those who believe they are right and everybody else is wrong.”

6. Later that month she told students that there are many ways to heaven and that one religion cannot be right, while others are wrong. Firtko objected to that statement by quoting Jesus who said “I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me.” Dietsch told him to stop quoting from the Bible, then stated, “If you believe your beliefs are right, and everyone else’s is wrong, you do not belong in this program.”

The harassment had become so bad by February that Klender withdrew from the program. A week later, Firtko received a letter notifying him that he’d been dismissed from the program.

In July, the pair filed a formal complaint against Dietsch for religious discrimination and violating the Association of Pastoral Continuing Education Standards.

Attorney Wells said it appears the government is trying to establish “a secular humanist-based religion free from any influence of Christian dogma.”

“The most egregious part is the VA supervisor told two chaplains that they were not allowed to pray in the name of Jesus and they could not quote Scripture,” he said.

Wells feared that unless changes are made, Christian chaplains are going to be discouraged from serving in the military.

“Christian chaplains are under a lot of pressure right now and facing a lot of challenges,” he said.

Todd Starnes is host of Fox News & Commentary, heard on hundreds of radio stations.


If you would sincerely like to help, contact your congressperson on this issue.

We're not asking for exclusivity, just the Constitutional Right to participate at this point.

Imagine being in a VA hospital flat on your back and not being able to have access to a chaplain that practices your chosen religion.


--Mac

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I saw Fox News in there so not sure how unbiased that report is! smile But I'd agree that the Baptist chaplains should get the same treatment, privileges, etc. that any other chaplains would get! There should be no preferred religion and none should be penalized!

As a practical matter I'm not sure how they manage that. If a Catholic soldier is dying on the battlefield he'd want a priest and not a rabbi. Likewise, a dying Muslim soldier would not want to be told about the word of Christ! laugh Are there non-denominational chaplains available?

Last edited by JohnJohnJohn; 11/12/13 01:22 PM.
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I think the way it’s supposed to work is that it’s okay for a chaplain to be open about his/her brand of religion, but it’s not okay to say that it’s the one true religion. Also the chaplain is supposed to be versed in the other mainstream religions so he can minister to each soldier according to the soldiers beliefs, especially in emergencies.

Proselytizing is also a big no-no.

I feel sure the big military bases bring in priests, rabbis and Imams so they can have services that are specific to the big 3 religions, but the chaplains in the field probably do have to be non-specific and talk about God as a general concept and avoid talking about Jesus, Moses or Mohammad.

Last edited by bobcflatpicker; 11/12/13 02:51 PM.
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It is only Jesus that they have been told not to mention.

And praying "In Jesus name" is what Christianity is ALL ABOUT.


--Mac

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The chaplains aren't supposed to be representing Jesus. They're supposed to be attending to spiritual needs of the veterans regardless of what they believe.

They should be willing to pray to The Flying Spaghetti Monster if that's what the veteran wants.

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Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn
I saw Fox News in there so not sure how unbiased that report is!


Well, if you don't see it reported on your preferred news outlet, you should ask yourself why that is the case.

Did you notice that the story is about a LAWSUIT FILED?

Any news agency would not want to get sued themselves for lying about a lawsuit being filed if one wasn't, no?

This situation has been ongoing for some time, to include not only the case of VA chaplains mentioned above, but also VA run cemetaries trying to outlaw anyone, including family members, praying in Jesus name at ceremonies.

Would you believe the Washington Times?

This links to a story from 2005...

Look, you may not like the fact that I am a veteran of the US Armed Forces who also is a practicing Christian, that's one thing.

Supporting the arbitrary attempt to thwart my rights as an American by feigning disbelief in the reporting of same is another thing entirely.

The real question then is, why do I find more Christians willing to support the rights of Atheists than I find Atheists willing to be reciprocal about it?

Kind of belies the Atheists' claims of support for equality, no?


--Mac

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Mac, I certainly support your right to be a Christian. And I am thankful for your military service in the same way I am thankful for the service of police and firemen and even teachers! All of these, and many more, provide essential services to our society and we should all be thankful for them!

Fox News is not a source I would ever trust without doing some pretty thorough verification. For me, the credibility of their news department is compromised because of the strong bias of most of their non-news commentators and pundits. And FYI I also do not trust what MSNBC reports without the same level of scrutiny!

As to whether atheists support the rights of Christians I am unaware of any cases where atheists have tried to restrict what Christians do or say in their churches or homes. Now, on the other hand, atheists do object to Christianity being taught in public schools and things like nativity scenes being on display in the public square.

The reason for that is simple...The United States of America has no official religion. We are not a Christian nation! Our citizens practice Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, atheism and lots more. So it would be entirely inappropriate to allow one group to display their religious symbols in the public square!

But, every year around this time when this happens to Christians, agencies like Fox News report this as if the Christians were somehow being wronged when, in fact, they are simply being given fair and equal treatment.

I guess you could make the case that all religions should be allowed to place their religious symbols in the public square but that would get pretty crazy so a simple policy of no religious stuff in the public square is probably the best one.

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Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn


As to whether atheists support the rights of Christians I am unaware of any cases where atheists have tried to restrict what Christians do or say in their churches or homes.


Another reason to question your news sources, my friend.

Neighborhood Commitees, Town Councils, City Managements, etc. have been foisting their unconstitutional biased and hateful legislations, arbitrary regulations and even arrests onto Christians meeting in their own homes for at least two decades and counting.


--Mac

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Originally Posted By: Mac
Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn


As to whether atheists support the rights of Christians I am unaware of any cases where atheists have tried to restrict what Christians do or say in their churches or homes.


Another reason to question your news sources, my friend.

Neighborhood Commitees, Town Councils, City Managements, etc. have been foisting their unconstitutional biased and hateful legislations, arbitrary regulations and even arrests onto Christians meeting in their own homes for at least two decades and counting.


--Mac

you may be watching too much Fox News Mac!

I'm curious...do you consider the Supreme Court rulings in 1962 and 1963 abolishing state-sanctioned prayer in public schools to be unconstitutional? How about the various rulings to remove religious symbols from the public square?

My position is simple and follows the Constitution. We all have freedom to believe (or not) as we wish. And the government cannot and should not promote any religion. If kids wish to pray during their lunch or recess I support that right and no one has taken that right away. But if a teacher or administrator attempts to lead the class/school in a prayer or actively promote a religious belief I oppose that. And so does our Constitution!

Likewise for religious symbols in the public square. That area is shared and paid for by all of us. Not by any one religious group. So I do not want to see a cross or star of David or star & crescent or any other religious symbol displayed in the town hall or courthouse.

For quite a long time Christianity has been the most popular religion in the United States. And because of that, this religion assumed certain privileges like having Christian prayers in public schools and having their religious symbols displayed prominently in the public square.

As we become more tolerant and considerate of others we have begun to remove many of these privileges from Christianity. And that is exactly as it should be based on our Constitution!

Many Christians feel persecuted because of this. But make no mistake, the removal of your religious practices and symbols from a public space where they never belonged is NOT persecution! It is simply the leveling of the playing field and removing of privileges Christianity should never have had in the first place!

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Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn

you may be watching too much Fox News Mac!


I do not watch network television at all, period. Put that one away more than 30 years ago and never looked back, never miss it, either. No cable tv bills here, no satellite receiver, none of it.

However, since I'm still somewhat viable in the advertising game, I just checked the latest ratings and found that Fox Nearly Doubles CNN and MSNBC's Combined Prime Time Viewers Last Week.

You made that assumption simply because the particular article I chose in order to bring attention to a very real problem facing millions of Christian veterans of the US Armed Forces.


Quote:
I'm curious...do you consider the Supreme Court rulings in 1962 and 1963 abolishing state-sanctioned prayer in public schools to be unconstitutional?


state sanctioned prayer in public schools.

This stems from two rulings: Engel v. Vitale (1962) and Abington School District v. Schempp (1963)

Then in 1971 Lemon v. Kurtzman established the so-called "Lemon test" which states that in order to be constitutional under the First Amendment any practice sponsored within state run schools must: 1) have a secular purpose, 2) must neither advance nor inhibit religion, and 3) must not result in an excessive entanglement between government and religion.

Prayer has never been forbidden. Courts have consistently ruled that the students right to pray cannot be abridged unless it causes substantial disruption in the schools operations. What is forbidden is state sponsored prayer.

Quote:
How about the various rulings to remove religious symbols from the public square?

My position is simple and follows the Constitution. We all have freedom to believe (or not) as we wish. And the government cannot and should not promote any religion.


The First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution reads:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Seems to me that if any level of government outlaws or prohibits the free speech of ANY US citizen, the 1st Amendment is violated.

Therefore, I interpret the First of our Constitutional Amendments as telling us that any example of Free Speech placed on display by any private citizen or citizens is an exercise of this basic right.

It is also very clear from the other viewpoint as well, the US CONGRESS can not legally "make a law" that would attempt to establish a religion.

A display is not a congressionally made law!

Quote:
If kids wish to pray during their lunch or recess I support that right and no one has taken that right away.


Then you need to re-address your use of the word, "abolish" up there.

Which is it that you espouse really?


Quote:
But if a teacher or administrator attempts to lead the class/school in a prayer or actively promote a religious belief I oppose that. And so does our Constitution!


You may oppose it, and I would defend to the death your personal Constitutionally granted right to oppose it, but unless your teacher or administrator is 1) a member of Congress, 2) able to get the Congress to vote and pass a law that would require a particular religion, and 3) could get a President to sign same into law, I say that the Free Speech rights of these teachers and/or administers is being placed in jeopardy, and illegally so.

Quote:
Likewise for religious symbols in the public square. That area is shared and paid for by all of us. Not by any one religious group. So I do not want to see a cross or star of David or star & crescent or any other religious symbol displayed in the town hall or courthouse.


Again, you don't want to "see" it, and that is your position, but the Constitution is silent on the subject.

Quote:

For quite a long time Christianity has been the most popular religion in the United States. And because of that, this religion assumed certain privileges like having Christian prayers in public schools and having their religious symbols displayed prominently in the public square.


Whoa. What do I see here?

Your argument that this nation was not founded by Christians in the first place just went up in smoke in order for you to come up with an argument for this issue!

That leaves you in the position of standing in midair once again, my friend, this time trying desperately to use a nail to fasten a raw egg to the wall.

Quote:
As we become more tolerant and considerate of others we have begun to remove many of these privileges from Christianity.


That neither tolerates nor considers the Jewish or Christian citizens of this nation.

Tired old song and dance of hatred is all this is.

Surely you really don't want to be seen as the prejudiced, intolerant, anti-semitic and hate-filled person that says the things you have written here.


Quote:
And that is exactly as it should be based on our Constitution!


I disagree wholeheartedly with any and all of that.

Quote:
Many Christians feel persecuted because of this. But make no mistake, the removal of your religious practices and symbols from a public space where they never belonged is NOT persecution! It is simply the leveling of the playing field and removing of privileges Christianity should never have had in the first place!


You should read this part and understand it well.

I do not feel persecuted over all of this crap, and, really, I have just now begun to fight, as it were.


Those that want to change it, you are going to have to EARN it, in no uncertain terms and it is not Mac that you should worry about.

I'd suggest that you pick up a copy of "Fox's Book of Martyrs" and study it for real examples of real persecution, but in your case I'd be concerned that you would interpret it as a "howto".


--Mac

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Just to restate my position, no religion should have any sort of official place or preferential treatment in our government. Not yours, not mine, not no one's!

Keep your religion where it belongs...in your heart and in your home and in your church. And feel free to wear jewelry and clothing branded for your religion. That all fits under freedom of speech. But don't expect to be able to preach inside our public schools! It ain't allowed and it never should have been allowed!

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Originally Posted By: Mac
Those that want to change it, you are going to have to EARN it

We have already earned it and changed it Mac. And the changes continue. We are not going back to the "glorious" days of the first half of the 20th century where loving a particular deity was the litmus test for fitting in in our society. The world has moved on. And thank dog for that! laugh

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Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn
no religion should have any sort of official place or preferential treatment in our government. Not yours, not mine, not no one's! Keep your religion where it belongs...in your heart and in your home and in your church. And feel free to wear jewelry and clothing branded for your religion. That all fits under freedom of speech. But don't expect to be able to preach inside our public schools! It ain't allowed and it never should have been allowed!


I endorse the above....kinda reminds me of Matthew 6:6. smile

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