Previous Thread
Index
Next Thread
Print Thread
Go To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Off-Topic
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,063
Veteran
OP Offline
Veteran
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,063
Hey ya'll,

I have questions about sample rates for audio used in video.

Audio cds 44100 but video/tv/movie soundtracks are 48000. So what happens to cd quality audio when added to video - is it "up sampled" somehow? Does it change it for better or worse? Would it be better to import the soundtrack at 48000 to begin with? Is it something to even be concerned about?

In the past, I've just put the mixed down "cd" 44100 version on the few youtube videos I've done and never thought about it. But now that I'm aware of this - which actually I don't know about youtube specifically - but I got a new video editor and I saw that the sound is rendered to 48000 when the video is rendered. I tried searching on the subject but I'm really not clear....

Thanks in advance for your help and knowledge.

Josie

Off-Topic
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 18,838
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 18,838
Hi Josie,

The 44,100 Hz and 48,000 Hz is the rate at which an audio signal is processed in relation to the signal's variation with time. Below is a simplified image of a sound wave.



Using the above image ...

1. The sound starts at where I've shown.

2. One second later it has traveled up to a maximum value, gone back down past the horizontal axis to a minimum value and then returned back to the horizontal starting line. (I've marked this movement by the red double-ended arrow. It's this horizontal variation in sound that we hear as pitch; the vertical variation we hear as volume.)

3. If a sample rate is 44,100 Hz, the above one-second variation in movement of this sound wave is captured as 44,100 individual snippets of information.

4. If the sample rate is 48,000 Hz, then the variation of the sound wave's movement during one second is captured as 48,000 individual snippets of information.


In going from one sampling frequency to another one, the best method is to use the original data to calculate new values for new rate. There are software programs to do this and it might be that your video software has this ability.

As a consequence of my net searches, I've just stumbled across this ...

link to "Music Editor", a freeware re-sampling program. (I haven't tried it so I have no idea how effective it is.)

Thanks for asking this question! It's inspired me to find out some stuff.

All the best,
Noel


MY SONGS...
Audiophile BIAB 2024
Off-Topic
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 10,099
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 10,099
I've been studying the third edition of Bobby Owsinski's "The Mixing Engineer's Handbook". In addition to many other details he mentions preparing a song for iTunes.

Songs distributed on iTunes are encoded for distribution by Apple using an exclusive encoding scheme they developed. The iTunes store has an app mastering engineers can use to test and verify a song is "iTunes Ready" prior to submitting a song.

In addition to other requirements, the audio file should be rendered at 24 bits and 96kHz. Apple says the intent of this requirement is to future proof the high fidelity quality of the audio file as encoding schemes change in the future.

Submitted files that meet the requirements and pass the app test are identified with an iTunes ready icon.


Jim Fogle - 2024 BiaB (1109) RB (Build 3) Ultra+ PAK
Cakewalk - Zoom MRS-8 recorder
Desktop: i7 Win 10 build 2004, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD
Laptop: i3 64bit Win 10 build 21H2, 8GB ram 500GB HDD
Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
Off-Topic
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,063
Veteran
OP Offline
Veteran
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,063
Hey Noel.

You always go into such wonderful detail. I think you're saying to just let the video software handle it and not worry about it.

I understand that real film scoring is done at 48000.

I'm assuming that adding a previously recorded cd version of a song to a video and the software then changing the sample rate must not have much of an impact on the sound quality as far as artifacts and such or it seems there would be more talk about it out there than I've found...

It was surprising to me that it wasn't all the same rate as cd quality. But I suppose people writing songs for film/tv probably already knew that. smile

Thanks for your help,

Josie

Off-Topic
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,063
Veteran
OP Offline
Veteran
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,063
Hey Jim,

That is very interesting. Seems a little excessively high rates to me but that's very good to know.

I don't know if you've heard about iTunes Radio new policy and algorithm. The deal there is that if your song is mixed too hot and loud it will be automatically turned down to fit where they want the overall level of the entire play list. This move being praised by those against the loudness wars especially Bob Katz who thinks this will help get the dynamics back into music. He says under this new policy that mixing to get the loudest possible signal not only won't matter anymore but may make songs mixed too hot actually sound worse and smaller when they are automatically turned down - compared to other songs mixed with a more reasonable dynamic range to begin with. Just an fyi.

Thank you for the info,

Josie

Off-Topic
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,047
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,047
Noel,
Most excellent graphics and definitions of the difference.

Jim,

Actually what you presented is excellent information for future.
Sheez there goes another TERA-byte HD...

Josie,

Just upgraded to Pinnacle Studio 17 Ultimate, versus vs 14 had for several years.
Am creating the music using RB with FX goodies, but 44,100 is the wav created.

However....big word, that cancels all previous words.
However, when loading into vs studio 17 editor bit of magic happens for me..

After completed editing, and touch-up, then rendering to MP4, the audio results are much
nicer sounding. They do the 41 to 48 conversion in their software. Also the new software
has lot more audio ability editing features.

End result, reasonable sounds to Video Editor....Enhanced sounds out. Am happy camper.

FWIW Disclaimer, only a user of the Pinnacle video software. It is excellent upgrade tho.
Recollections is 1920 x 1080 x 48k, with the decent sounds.

Last edited by seeker; 04/16/14 08:36 PM.

FrankB

Down The Street vs2015 12-03-2014
Win7, AMD QuadA8-5500,16GB,2TeraHD, Komplete 10
PG Ultra Plus 2016,Alesis 12USB, Sonar Platinum
Off-Topic
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,063
Veteran
OP Offline
Veteran
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,063
Hey Frank,

I switched to Premiere Elements 11. I also have Videostudio X6 Ultimate. Couldn't decide so I got both. LOL! Pinnacle is one of the few I didn't trial. I think most of them now have an audio editor built in. I just never noticed on my old PD10 that the sample rate was changed even though I'm sure it was....duh. So I didn't want to be doing something wrong and not knowing any better. LOL! So thank you for that info.

BTW, what kind of rendering time are you getting with Pinnacle for a 3-4 min video with effects? I know a lot depends on how many and what effects - but just an average ballpark??? My test in VS6X took around 2 hours to render to an mp4 file which I thought was rather long.

Thank you,

Josie

Off-Topic
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 18,838
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 18,838
Josie,

I've just checked in Reaper and if I set my project sample rate to 48,000 Hz, Reaper still sees the BIAB RT files as 44,100 Hz. I assume it interprets them this way. Maybe your video software does something similar.

Try it out. You've got a great ear and that will soon tell you if there's anything wrong smile

For what it's worth, my song "Sunny Side of Life" has my vocals at 48,000 Hz and all the BIAB instruments are at 44,100 Hz. I rendered the wav to 44,100 Hz. I usually set everything to 44,100 Hz but this one slipped past me! Given your topic, it was serendipitous!

Here's the link to "Sunny Side of Life" if you want to have a listen.

All the best,
Noel


MY SONGS...
Audiophile BIAB 2024
Off-Topic
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,687
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,687
I don't think all this matters much because any vids going to YT gets it's audio automatically compressed down anyway. There's online articles about how to mix your audio file prior to uploading to YT to get the best results but realize those best results are far from CD quality.

Bob


Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
Off-Topic
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 366
J
Journeyman
Offline
Journeyman
J
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 366
Hi Josie:

I usually mix my song at 44.1 Hz which I use for WAVs, mp3s, etc. I then use Sony Sound Forge to resample the song as a 48k WAV for video work. At 48k, it sounds exactly the same as the 44.1 version, provided that I actually tell Sound Forge to re-sample at 48k and not simply SET the sample rate at 48k without re-sampling it. I believe simply setting it to 48k without re-sampling would change the pitch.

In your situation, I believe you could use Reaper to mix down both a 44.1k version and a 48k version of your song. Section 18.3, page 343 of the Reaper pdf manual talks about the different settings for rendering a project. The first window under the "Options" section is the sample rate. You could try rendering a song at both 44.1 and 48k and see if they sound any different.

I was like you -- I bought Corel Video Studio 6 AND Sony Movie Studio Platinum 12 64-bit because I wasn't sure which I could work with.
I ended up really liking Sony Movie Studio Platinum 12 because it's work flow is so much like a DAW. In fact I know several people who use the Sony Vegas (the pro version of the same software) as their DAW because it's audio features are so good.

The rendering time of 2 hours you got in Video Studio seems very long. For my first several music videos where I used still photos instead of video the render time to an mp4 file was just about as long as the song itself, maybe shorter (2-3 minutes. For the Bob Dylan parody I just did, where I used video, the render time to mp4 was about 6-7 minutes for the 2:45 minute song.

But I am using the 64-bit version of the program and I have an i-7 processor and Sony Movie Studio also lets me use my Video card (that meets certain specs) to help in the video rendering-- so I think all of that helps with rendering time.

As to why video uses 48k, I thought I read somewhere that video uses 48k for audio because you can divide 48k by the common frame rates of 24, 25(PAL) and 30 and get an even number, but can't seem find a reference for that so don't quote me on that.

Good luck.

John

Off-Topic
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 6,576
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 6,576
iTunes isn't the only one pushing higher sampling rates. Neil Young has been pushing Pono as a platform to bring back higher fidelity to digital recordings. But for that, you've got to go back to the original tracks and remaster them at the new sampling frequency (which they are doing with Pono), or you haven't gained anything in the process.

As mentioned, upsampling means changing the sampling rate. So if you upsampled from 41kHz to 48kHz, you now have 48000 samples per second instead of 41000 samples per second. But where do those extra 7000 samples per second come from?

To a computer or media device, music is just a stream of numbers. So if you had a snippet of music sampled at some rate, it might look like this:

... .234, .300, .550, .557 ...

If this stream were upsampled to twice the sample rate, the stream would look like:

... ???, .234,???, .300, ???, .550, ???, .557, ??? ...

That is, twice as many numbers would be used to represent the same audio stream.

The computer can only guess what those values are likely to be. There are all sorts of methods which produce reasonable results (linear interpolation, cubic splines, etc.), but they're all guesses. The original information was never captured, so it can't be restored.

For example, you could linearly interpolate the missing numbers by averaging the numbers around it:

... ???, .234, .267, .300, .425, .550, .553, .557, ??? ...

So now you've got enough numbers in the stream to play it back at the new sampling rate. But you didn't add higher fidelity to the recording. To do that, you'd have to go back to the original recording and re-mix at the sampling rate.

But... If the information wasn't recorded at a higher sampling rate, the information isn't there in the recording anyway. So all your DAW can do is upsample.

That's what happens when you import tracks from BiaB at CD quality, and set your project to a higher sampling rate. Behind the scenes, the BiaB track is being upsampled.

However, all the effects and processing will be at 48kHz (possibly higher, depending on the DAW), so there is a benefit to working at a higher sample rate.


-- David Cuny
My virtual singer development blog

Vocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?
Off-Topic
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,063
Veteran
OP Offline
Veteran
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,063
Noel,

That would've freaked me out but it doesn't seem to have had any overtly negative effects on the sound. smile


Josie

Off-Topic
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,063
Veteran
OP Offline
Veteran
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,063
Bob,

Good point about YT's compression. But as well as YT, I'm making some DVD's for gifts to friends/family - hardly blockbuster material but sentimental to us. So of course I want them to sound as nice as I can in addition to whatever else I do on YT.


Josie

Off-Topic
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,913
R
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
R
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,913
If I recall correctly, the most common upsampling schema is to simply fill in the "???" in DCUNY's example with zeros.

Probably the biggest 'aha' moment that I had in EE-638 at Purdue, was in the Proakis and Manolakis text when it showed how analog signals are reconstructed from digitally sampled data, through the analog impulse response superposition of the individual analog impulse responses.

This kind of sounds like gobbledegook, I understand, but just think of it this way:

A Digital to Analog converter has a certain impulse response - that is, you hit is with a little spike of voltage - the actual digitized voltage, and it rings out in a certain way in analog world. Not unlike hitting a bell with a striker.

Ever so slightly later in time, you hit that filter again with a spike of voltage, and it rings again, but it's still ringing from the previous spike.

Repeat ad infinitum.

If you add up all of the ringings from getting hit by the spikes, in other words, superposing them, you get a smooth analog response of voltage which you send to your analog amp/speakers/etc.

I've long forgotten most of what I learned in the course (1995 time frame). The long and short of it as it pertains to this discussion: the data compression algorithms with online video obliterate most of the actual real concerns of recording in 44.1kHz vs. 48 kHz, and most DAW software can handle the up/down sampling without issue or heavy hitting on the CPU.

Off-Topic
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,063
Veteran
OP Offline
Veteran
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,063
John,

It feels good knowing I'm not the only one who couldn't decide and bought two video editors. LOL! It's like they all do different things well. Sony is a nice one too that I did trial.

I'm feeling better after all the replies in this discussion that I don't have to worry about this as much as I was concerned that I might.

Thanks for the rendering info too. My AMD computer is not that powerful for video making and has built in graphics. I know now that's not as good as having a dedicated card but it has opencl with accelerated graphics so I suppose I could've done worse. I'm gonna do a test video on PE running on 64bit and see if it makes a difference in rendering time compared to VS6X at 32bits.

Thank you,

Josie

Off-Topic
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,063
Veteran
OP Offline
Veteran
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,063
Hey David,

That was a great explanation. I'm going to read it again and get back on here later.


You too Scott!

I'm tired now so I'm gonna process what you and David are saying a bit more.


Josie

Off-Topic
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 8,056
C
Veteran
Online Content
Veteran
C
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 8,056
Rockstar_not is correct regarding the upsampling process. To also state the obvious, if you record at 48K, the recording has to be dithered down to 44.1k to print a redbook CD.

In the most recent edition of Bob Katz book on mastering and recording, he recommends recording at 48k 24bit.


BIAB Ultra Pak+ 2024:RB 2024, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
Off-Topic
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 9,301
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 9,301
Simple.

I record at 24 bits and 44.1k sample rate.

I render waves to 16/44.1k and let it roll.

The main reason being it's the industry standard.

I do understand all the arguments for and against higher sample rates. I just don't have the time to worry or ponder those things in depth. I listen to the song at 16/44.1 and like what I hear.

That's good enough for me.

The only time I concern myself with sample rates is with MP3 conversion and then I opt for the highest rate of 320kbs and once again, let it roll

Last edited by Guitarhacker; 05/13/14 10:19 AM.

You can find my music at:
www.herbhartley.com
Add nothing that adds nothing to the music.
You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.

The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
Off-Topic
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 20,638
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 20,638
I record and render with the identical specs as Herb does for the same reasons. Most all of our music is listened too via CDs or MP3s.

FWIW I think recording and/or rendering anything over 24/48 is just a waste of disc space for the genres of music that we are recording. If one were doing an orchestral piece then maybe higher bit and sample rates may pay off if you have golden ears. I do not!

Remember if it sounds good it is good!


Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.

64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
Off-Topic
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 10,153
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 10,153
Hey all, I'm back.

Josie. Sampling rate comes down to the Nyquist Theorem. Basically what it says is that the highest frequency that you can record is half the value of the sample rate. So, with 44.1K, the highest frequency you can record is 22.050KhZ. Human hearing goes to about 20kHz. MINE goes to about 14 or 15kHz, on a good day! My cat's may go to 60kHz. For 48k, your upper sampling frequency will be 24kHz. Out of the hearing range of humans, but still able to capture harmonics of a sound. Then we get into 88.2, and 96kHz sampling rates, which are 'double speed.' My cat could possibly hear sounds that high, but I can't. Most microphones and speakers will not reproduce sounds that high.

Then we have the idiots who want to record at 192kHz, or now 384kHz. WHY??? There is no audible sonic material at those levels, plus any filtering is going to drive the noise floor UP, not down.

I record at 24bit, 48kHz. That gives me plenty of dynamic range, and a sampling rate that doesn't give me overly huge files, but still captures all the details I want.

I'll add more to this tonight when I get home.

Gary


I'm blessed watching God do what He does best. I've had a few rough years, and I'm still not back to where I want to be, but I'm on the way and things are looking far better now than what they were!
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Go To
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Link Copied to Clipboard
ChatPG

Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.

ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.

PG Music News
Convenient Ways to Listen to Band-in-a-Box® Songs Created by Program Users!

The User Showcase Forum is an excellent place to share your Band-in-a-Box® songs and listen to songs other program users are creating!

There are other places you can listen to these songs too! Visit our User Showcase page to sort by genre, artist (forum name), song title, and date - each listing will direct you to the forum post for that song.

If you'd rather listen to these songs in one place, head to our Band-in-a-Box® Radio, where you'll have the option to select the genre playlist for your listening pleasure. This page has SoundCloud built in, so it won't redirect you. We've also added the link to the Artists SoundCloud page here, and a link to their forum post.

We hope you find some inspiration from this amazing collection of User Showcase Songs!

Congratulations to the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!

We've just announced the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!

There are 45 winners, each receiving a Band-in-a-Box 2024 UltraPAK! Read the official announcement to see if you've won.

Our User Showcase Forum receives more than 50 posts per day, with people sharing their Band-in-a-Box songs and providing feedback for other songs posted.

Thank you to everyone who has contributed!

Video: Volume Automation in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows®

We've created a video to help you learn more about the Volume Automation options in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows.

Band-in-a-Box® 2024: Volume Automation

www.pgmusic.com/manuals/bbw2024full/chapter11.htm#volume-automation

Video: Audio Input Monitoring with Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows®

We've created this short video to explain Audio Input Monitoring within Band-in-a-Box® 2024, and included some tips & troubleshooting details too!

Band-in-a-Box® 2024: Audio Input Monitoring

3:17: Tips
5:10: Troubleshooting

www.pgmusic.com/manuals/bbw2024full/chapter11.htm#audio-input-monitoring

Video: Enhanced Melodists in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows®!

We've enhanced the Melodists feature included in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows!

Access the Melodist feature by pressing F7 in the program to open the new MultiPicker Library and locate the [Melodist] tab.

You can now generate a melody on any track in the program - very handy! Plus, you select how much of the melody you want generated - specify a range, or apply it to the whole track.

See the Melodist in action with our video, Band-in-a-Box® 2024: The Melodist Window.

Learn even more about the enhancements to the Melodist feature in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/manuals/bbw2024upgrade/chapter3.htm#enhanced-melodist

Band-in-a-Box® 2024 DAW Plugin Version 6: New Features Specifically for Reaper®

New with the DAW Plugin Version 6.0, released with Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows: the Reaper® Panel!

This new panel offers built-in specific support for the Reaper® DAW API allowing direct transfer of Band-in-a-Box® files to/from Reaper® tracks!

When you run the Plugin from Reaper®, there is a panel to set the following options:
-BB Track(s) to send: This allows you to select the Plugin tracks that will be sent Reaper.
-Destination Reaper Track: This lets you select the destination Reaper track to receive media content from the Plugin.
-At Bar: You can select a bar in Reaper where the Plugin tracks should be placed.
-Start Below Selected Track: This allows you to place the Plugin tracks below the destination Reaper track.
-Overwrite Reaper Track: You can overwrite previous content on the destination Reaper track.
-Move to Project Folder: With this option, you can move the Plugin tracks to the Reaper project folder.
-Send Reaper Instructions Enable this option to send the Reaper Instructions instead of rendering audio tracks, which is faster.
-Render Audio & Instructions: Enable this option to generate audio files and the Reaper instructions.
-Send Tracks After Generating: This allows the Plugin to automatically send tracks to Reaper after generating.
-Send Audio for MIDI Track: Enable this option to send rendered audio for MIDI tracks.
-Send RealCharts with Audio: If this option is enabled, Enable this option to send RealCharts with audio.

Check out this video highlighting the new Reaper®-specific features: Band-in-a-Box® DAW Plugin Version 6: New Features Specifically for Reaper®

Band-in-a-Box® 2024 DAW Plugin Version 6: New Features Video

The new Band-in-a-Box VST DAW Plugin Verion 6 adds over 20 new features!

Watch the new features video to learn more: Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2024 - DAW Plugin Version 6 New Features

We also list these new features at www.pgmusic.com/bbwin.plugin.htm.

Forum Statistics
Forums66
Topics81,390
Posts732,456
Members38,441
Most Online2,537
Jan 19th, 2020
Newest Members
Ernest J, ingridguerci94, Izzy, BenChaz, Csofi
38,440 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
MarioD 195
Al-David 124
DC Ron 114
dcuny 87
rsdean 83
Today's Birthdays
CeeDee, SethMould
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5