PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production Saffire PRO 24

Greetings muso's and bb/, guru's. This is my first post - of many - doubtlessly!

I wonder, has anyone used a Saffire interface in conjunction with BIAB purely as an external soundcard?
The little info I've been able to glean is that the unit needs a DAW in order for it to work.
Is this indeed the case?

I'm planning to use BIAB as my "band in residence" whilst on the road, so perhaps the Saffire isn't the appropriate outboard sound card?

Any comments graciously accepted.

Nic.

A couple of questions for you, Nic.

• What kind of computer, and what interface? I'm going to guess a Mac
• What are you planning on using it for? In particular, how many instruments do you plan on connecting to it?
• You COULD use RealBand with it. Export your output from Band In A Box to RealBand, and then record.
• Are you looking to get some kind of sound out of it, or do you have an external sound generator for the BIAB parts?
  

Unless there is a huge change in BIAB 2014 that I'm unaware of (I've only recently upgraded), Band in a Box still only uses two channels of audio input and two channels of audio output. You have 16 in and 8 out on this device. Anything above 1 and 2 is going to be a waste, unless you have 16 different inputs all going at the same time.

My feeling is a simple 2x2 audio interface is probably the best for the singer/songwriter. I would look at the Scarlett 2i2.

http://us.focusrite.com/usb-audio-interfaces/scarlett-2i2

Gary

Good questions from Gary. FWIW there are MANY 2i2 for sale on Craigslist and eBay, I think it's down to the fact that you can buy them at Best Buy.

My guess is that you already have the Saffire Pro 24. Be prepared fora bit of work getting the mixer applet sorted the way you would like with monitors and headphones and so forth - it's pretty deep.

Thanks for the responses guys,

Gary, a, I'm using my studio pc at the mo - will use a laptop for live work (Windoze 7)

b, Planning to use 2/3 mics and 2 guitars, Banjo etc, and BIAB of course. But I want to be able to use the Karaoke words thingymabob - as I've a lousy memory! I'm using an outboard drive for storing realtracks drums etc.

c, Yes, I thought about rendering my mixes to wav or MP3 but I need the facility to change song keys - for any folks wanting to have a sing. (karaoke)

RE; sound, I really just want a good quality outboard soundcard, as the ones that come with the machines are pretty rubbish. And... a 3.5 mm jack - controlling my 2K pa is far too dodgy. I "hoped" to be able to utilise the firewire connection on my Saffire ( top marks for intuition Rockstar ) but I have not the faintest idea if it would be ok to do so?

So I'm still baffled!!

Thanks again, Nic

Okay Nic,
I don't have any experience with the Saffire, and Scott probably has a better concept about the mixer applet than I do, but here goes the basic stuff.

The terms 'Audio Interface', 'Sound card' and such have lost a lot of their original meaning, and it's very confusing to people.

Let's go over a couple of things, okay?

An 'Audio Interface' is a device that is designed to get audio in and out of your computer. On the Input side, it can be from microphones, or Direct Input boxes, or guitar processors like the Line 6 Pods. On the output side, it takes the information on the computer, and sends to to headphones, speakers, and outboard effects processors.

For the most part, 'Audio Interfaces' DO NOT create sounds, like instruments! I can not emphasize this enough.

Creating the instruments sounds is the job of a synthesizers. More detail in a second or two.

Sound cards, at least in the dark ages of beginning PC, were a combination of Audio Interface and Synthesizer. They not only put the sound into the computer, as well as took it out of the computer, but for 'MIDI' information, created the actual sounds from an onboard stored library. Later on, Creative Labs brought out something called 'SoundFonts,' which allowed the actual sound library to be stored on the hard drive.

For the most part, those days are gone. The sound chips in most computers today are really nothing more than an audio interface, and in Windows, there is a software synthesizer that uses basically the same technology as Creative Labs Soundfonts.

So, along the way these 'software synthesizers' came along, and some of them aren't too bad, some are pretty crappy, and some are amazing. But, as with anything, you get what you pay for.

You said This is an indication of the confusion that is so prevalent. You don't want a good quality outboard sound card, you want a good quality sound generator, i.e., a good synthesizer. You want the best sounding sounds you can get.

Two ways to go about this. For Karaoke, my feeling is that a high quality external sound module, like the Roland SD50 that PG Music sells, would be idea.

http://www.pgmusic.com/rolandsd50.win.htm

This will allow you to plug in the MIDI output from the computer and select the SD-50 as the MIDI output device in Band In A Box. The SD-50 will also allow you to use it as an Audio Interface for getting RealTracks out of the computer and to your speakers. I don't have one, but I would assume that you can mix both Audio Tracks, i.e., Real Tracks and MIDI Tracks together. It also has a Mic input, so your Karaoke singers should be able to sing along with you.

To give you an idea of what is possible, here are some sample sounds from the SD50

http://www.rolandus.com/flash/demos/sd50/sound.swf

There are also reviews of the SD50 on this very website, so you can do a search for them.

I truly believe you're looking for an audio sound generator, with an Audio Interface, and the SD50 gives you that, versus an Audio Interface with no sound generator.

EDIT: Okay, what I've done is this. I created a Melodist song in Band In A Box. Currently, I use a Korg PA800 arranger keyboard, retail right now about $2,500 USD This is 32 bars.

Korg Test.

If you buy Roland hardware, or sometimes, Cakewalk software, you'll get the TTS-1 software synth. Same song, same 32 bars.

TTS-1 Test

Finally, several people really like the Coyote Forte DXi. I'm not one of them, but here it is anyway.

The Forte Test.

All of these songs use the same Real Drums, all the other instruments are synthesized. In fairness, I had to adjust the TTS-1 volumes a little bit to get it to sound more balanced, but that was the only thing I did.

Gary

Nic,
Do you have firewire output on the laptop you are planning on taking to gigs? This is becoming more and more rare on PC lappys these days. Also make sure with the Focusrite folks that the chipset that is part of your firewire setup is compatible with the Saffire. TI chipsets were recommended by PreSonus back in the day, and Focusrite may have similar recommendations.

The mixer applet on the Saffire 24 Pro series is quite complicated. I have first-hand experience with it; could basically use a Saffire Pro 24 DSP version for as long as I wanted to and I gave up on it. Then my Thinkpad with Firewire bit the dust, and I went USB.

That said, about 6 months ago, I bought a Focusrite Scarlett 18i8, and I've not had to fiddle with the mixer applet whatsoever.

Your channel count needs put you out of the Scarlett 2i2 and other 2 input cards. That is, if you want to run everything through the Saffire. There's no need to run your live mics through it if you have a PA system with a mixer - just run your mics and any other sound source into your mixer. You really just need BIAB for backing tracks, correct?

It's hard to determine if you are needing the synth-engine/MIDI sound generation capacity for which Gary went into great detail. I say this because you refer to the real tracks aspect of BIAB, which does not require some type of midi synth engine. If you use real tracks exclusively, there's no MIDI needs.

I don't know of any commercially available external sound cards these days which have both a synth engine and the audio I/O that you need.

How did you come by the Saffire? Have you used it whatsoever? It's an incredibly nice audio/MIDI interface (note the word interface, not sound module), but it is rather complicated, and I don't believe that you would be wise to use a headphone out of any device if you have other outs available that are more robust (true for the Saffire and other external sound cards).

-Scott

You guys are great

Thanks Gary, your message has pretty much put me straight on where I need to be going.

Superb sounds from the Roland 50 - I'm gonna get me one.

Perhaps it's my untrained ears but I thought the Forte sounded good too! The fact that the program is designed to work in conjunction with BIAB is a particular boon too.

Again, many thanks for your kind help and advice.

Nic.

Hi rockstar, Thanks for your info's.

I've had a good mess about with my Saffire and finally found a "simple" way to utilise it as an external sound card.
I was probably expecting too much from it/me! Anyway I'm gonna get me a "sound module" for any midi stuff I use.

It's a bit of a paradigm shift for me planning to use backing tracks - not to mention having to learn BIAB and all the other swathe of bits and bobs needed for decent quality sound. For too many years I care to mention I only ever needed a guitar, a lead and amplifier!!!!

Your advice has been invaluable and I'm very grateful.

Nic

Nic,

We have a saying here, "There's many ways to skin a cat", which isn't the most politically correct thing to say.

I don't know that your needs really do demand an external midi sound module. You could do this with soft synthesis, but I'm not well-versed in BIAB and how it commands a synth. There are plenty of multi-midi-channel soft synths that could do the work, then you would use the Saffire for all connections to you PA.

Nic,
I have a great deal of respect for what my friend here says. Let's break this down a little bit further and really see IF you do need an external midi sound module or not.

I will preface this discussion with the comment that I am a hardware man, and I believe, for the most part, that you get better sounds from hardware, unless you're willing to go to great lengths to program your soft synths.

Secondly, I'll say that I injured myself last weekend, and have been in a considerable amount of pain, and I didn't properly read your original answer to my post. I was under the impression that you wanted your audience to come up and do karaoke with you, not that you were just going to read the lyrics.

Let's look at a couple of things.

1. I always recommend to anyone who has never used Band In A Box before to consider exactly what they want to do with it, and also, to make sure that they have a VERY firm grasp on what they're doing with it. If you are not 100% comfortable with Band In A Box, software synths, and you audio setup, you could be in for a huge crash on stage, at the worst possible moment, because Windows decides to blue screen, or you go to change a song in BIAB, and you get some exception error.

A man that I admire and respect a whole lot is Bob 'Notes' Norton, owner of Norton Music. He's been making aftermarket BIAB styles for a very long time. He is also half of the duo, the Sophisticats. They live and play in the Florida area of the U.S. Bob's styles are great, and are very musical, and he uses them, and BIAB, as a STARTING point for his backing sequences.

Once he gets near to what he wants by using BIAB, he will then transfer the MIDI files, and probably now even the Real Tracks files, to a sequencer. If the MIDI tracks need to be tweaked, he'll do it in the sequencer. Once he gets the perfect backing track, he then renders everything to audio. From there, the audio is stored on his laptop, which goes on stage with him. It's the laptop, and his .mp3 files, that get plugged into the PA system, not Band In A Box.

You can listen to the S-Cats here: http://www.nortonmusic.com/cats/audio.html

Okay, so why all the rain and gloom? I'm an electronics technician by trade, it's what I do for a living. I see computers lock up, crash and do all sorts of weird things at the most inopportune times. How would you like to be on stage, in the middle of a performance, and you've forgotten to turn off your WiFi, and something like Avast Anti Virus pops up and says 'Your database has been updated!' Worse, and more applicable, Band In A Box has been around forever, or so it seems, but if I do something weird, I'll get a crash, or an Exception Error. Then you've got that Windows 'ding' as you're trying to clear the error. Or, even if everything works properly, it still takes 15-20 seconds for BIAB to generate the backing tracks if you're using RealDrums and RealTracks.

If you go into a gig, with your PA and your laptop with a few hundred .mp3 files of music that you've already created, tweaked and optimized, both for sound and quality of sound, you're going to be a lot happier at the end of the evening.

Okay, now that I've gotten that mostly off of my chest, here's the rest of it.

Software or hardware? It depends on you.

If you follow my suggestion above, it doesn't really matter, because all of your tracks are going to be pre-recorded in your studio before heading out to the gig. If BIAB provides a totally killer bass track with exactly the right sound for your song, use it. If not, then create a MIDI bass track, export it, tweak it, and assign it a sound. For that, you can use multiple free VSTi plug in synths, and there are some pretty awesome libraries, as well. Maybe you want a perfect DX-7 sound, and your buddy down the street just happens to have an old DX-7 laying around. Plug it in, and go. Record the audio. Record your own guitar playing as a backing track.

The options are almost limitless in what you can do.

But, if you want to drag your laptop out on stage, pull up a BIAB song, and hit 'Play', my feeling is you don't have to worry about pre-loading software synths for each part, with the Roland, there are over 1,000 sounds, and you can save your song with those sounds so they're automatically recalled. It's just easier.

But, truly, if you're going to perform as a single player, with backing, do yourself and your audience a huge favor of making sure that your backing tracks are polished before you hit the stage, and even the street,looking for work

My two cents, for what it's worth.

Gary

^^What Gary said up there - quite important.

Gary, whew! your last post has definitely prompted me to rethink my whole approach to "tracking".

I hadn't given sufficient/any thought to the many and various vagaries of the windows o/s. The thought of getting a bsod whilst performing is alarming - not to mention generation lag, dings etc.

I see and hear that Bob Norton has put together some stunning backing covering a multitude of genres. Nice.

Mp3 looks like the way to go. I "just" need to get that firm grasp of BIAB and rendering methods you have recommended attaining, It'll be time well spent in order to get a slick act together though.

Yet again I'm most grateful that you have so kindly taken the time and effort to help.

Hope your injury gets better soon.

Kind regards and I'll leave you with a song;

http://www.banjohangout.org/myhangout/media-player/audio_player2.asp?musicid=4085&archived=

Nic

That was an enjoyable bit of pickin' there, Nic. So, how many of the instruments were you playing? Was any of it Band In A Box? If so, how much?

Truly enjoyed that.

Gary

Hi Gary,

Thanks for the kind words.

Yes that was me playing everything bar the fiddle.

It was recorded some 10 or so years past on a home studio - all real instruments. Don't think biab was around then?

Fortunately my playing has improved since then!!

Kind regards, Nic

Nic,
Band In A Box was most certainly around back then. In fact, if memory serves me correctly, Dr. Gannon started out on the Mac and the Atari computer! A quick Google search indicates 1990 and the Atari ST computer as the debut platform and time frame. Nothing like what it is today, though. Those '50 new features' each release add up over time. (Peter, please consider that a gentle bit of leg pulling, I do appreciated your development work and your fine product!)

As to your playing, if it's gotten better, we need to get you fully up and running on Band In A Box and Real Band so we can hear what you're like NOW!

Gary

Another question (Gary?) Is a sound module able to play both Real band instruments "And" midi simultaneously? Or does the midi track need to be recorded via the sound module, and then synched up with the real track(s) before being rendered to Mp3, Wav etc as a single file?

Thanks in advance.

The purest answer is 'No, you can't use a sound module to play RealTracks and MIDI together.'

However, the answer gets blurred with something like the SD-50, which is BOTH a Sound Module AND and Audio Interface. In that case, yes, you can run both Audio, like Real Tracks, and MIDI, into the sound module.

My feeling is that if you want the best reliability, record the audio as a .wav file into RealBand or some other DAW, do all of your effects processing there, and then input the Real Tracks data, and then do the mix down. But, that's just me.

Does this answer your question?

Gary

Hi Gary, thanks for the reply.

Question; you suggested recording the audio as a .wav,! Please forgive me if I have misunderstood you,
but I actually want to be able to make up a midi file - of something like a harmonica for instance, then, generate the "true" harmonica sound via a module or software? Record/save it then finally put it all together with the Realband real instruments score I've worked out .sgu - then bump it all down to a single track. I'm at a complete loss in how, or even if! It's possible.

Is it a case of either real tracks or just midi?

Unless of course a realtrack/band composition .sgu can be rendered in it's entirety to a midi file? In which case the problem is solved!

Thanks, Nic

Nic, allow me to jump in here - when you 'bump it down to a single track' it is going to be all audio - which real tracks are audio. It is certainly possible, but you need some way to render the MIDI sound into audio. Multiple ways to accomplish this - I have to believe that PG has a video on it somewhere. You will likely do it in RealBand, not BIAB. There's plenty of reasonably priced VSTi which will render the MIDI to audio. For example the free Kontakt player from Native Instruments and the factory sample set - it's not General Midi, but if your needs for backing tracks are limited to drums, bass, guitars, pianos and organs - this thing will cover your needs. All for free.

I'm thinking this is what Notes Norton does for his gigs, if I recall correctly. Send him a PM to see if he will write out the steps for you with your tools that you have available.

Also, there are soundfont player VSTi software samplers and plenty of decent soundfonts to work with for GM; may not be quite as nice as a Ketron type thing, but still dang good.

Here is SFZ+ Professional at Cakewalk - freebie, but you have to find the soundfonts that you like.
http://www.store.cakewalk.com/b2ceuro/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=35-CWSZ1.40-20E

Here is Cakewalk Dimension LE with Garritan Pocket Orchestra (a cut down version of Garritan which might totally satisfy your needs) for 5 Euro - that's a pretty killer deal right there.

http://www.store.cakewalk.com/b2ceuro/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=10-DMLE1.00-20E

With this took and RealBand/BIAB, you CAN do what you are looking to do, and you're only out 5 euro to give it a whirl. Specific steps best given by others here which have both programs, but I am 99% certain that you can 'render midi soft instruments to audio' with RealBand - which is what you are wanting to do, then bounce the whole thing down to stereo track.

Nic,
I'm sorry, I injured a disk in my back, and I've been in a lot of pain, and not here in forums.

Let's do this simply.

MIDI is nothing more than a protocol, as it says Music Instrument Digital Interface. It's a way to get digital information from one place to another. In the simplest terms, it says 'Turn this note on now, at this velocity, for this long, and then turn it off.' It doesn't say anything about how the sound should sound, or, even in some cases, what sound should be at all. (it's a little bit more complicated than that, of course, but that's the basic concept of MIDI)

So, your harmonica that you want to play. You can do this multiple ways, but let's say you are going to use a keyboard. No sounds in the keyboard, just an input device. You listen to a metronome, or a drum track, and you play the keyboard. You THINK you got it right, but you don't know, because there is NO SOUND. But, you look at the track you just recorded, either in Band In A Box or Real Band, and it shows that you recorded something. What your recorded was MIDI.

Now, no one is going to do that. You're going to select some kind of sound generator, whether it be something like the Roland I've been talking about, or a VSTi that Scott has been promoting. You set the track to output that data. Ahhh, but where does the data go? Well, you can set that, but right now, you can set it to output via your Saffire. Just select an output port. Or, if you have the Roland, it goes out the Roland. One uses the VSTi, which is nothing more than software in your computer. The computer sends audio data to the Saffire, and the Saffire sends it to your speakers and you hear whatever sample you have selected. The other way, it sends the data to the hardware synthesizer in the Roland, which creates the sound, and then that sends it to the hardware outputs of the audio section of the Roland, and on to your speakers.

Now, how about recording the sound? Well, if you're using a VSTi, it's REALLY easy. You'll 'Render' the entire file to an audio file, a two track stereo file, and the software will automatically create the sounds inside of the computer, and then mix them down to two track.
With the Roland, it's a bit harder, because you need to, ideally, record each MIDI track to an audio track. That means setting up the mixer software in the Roland to record the Synth. Since I don't have a Roland, I can't help you on that. But, if you have ten MIDI tracks, you should, again, ideally, have ten AUDIO tracks, PLUS, any Real Tracks or Real Drums you've imported from Band In A Box. Then, on top of that, if you're doing any recording of your own acoustic instruments, you will need to have an audio track for each instrument. So, let's say you have a truly complex song, you might have 20+ audio tracks.

Let's diverge here for a second. Why have 10 MIDI tracks and an audio for each of them? You could mute all the other tracks, and then record all ten MIDI tracks to one audio track. This is why I said 'ideally.' Because if you record each track individually, you can control volume, pan, and more importantly, add effects via VST or DX (not too many DX effects) But, if you want to add some reverb to one track, and not the others, and maybe some compressor to a few tracks, but each one is different, then each AUDIO track can be controlled separately. This is why I suggest one audio track for each midi track.

Okay, now we have the Real Track and Real Drums from Band In A Box in Real Band, and then we have created some MIDI tracks, and those are in Real Band, and you've either recorded audio tracks or are using VSTis (which, by the way, can have the other audio effects on each track, since they don't get recorded like a hardware synth does), and any tracks that you've recorded yourself. When everything is ready, you should be able to merge everything down to a two track audio file.

This may be a bit disconnected, and if it is, I'll apologize, it's 1:30 in the morning, I'm in a lot of pain, and I can't sleep, so I came online to do something useful. I hope this will help you, and not confuse you.

Gary

Hey Nic,

I picked up this device last week. Not as many inputs as the Pro 24 you were looking for but so far, so good, I love it. I run the Scarlett Mix Control app that came with it along with the BIAB products, no issues there.

Scarlett-6i6 - USB Audio Interface