|
Log in to post
|
Print Thread |
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 6,705
Veteran
|
OP
Veteran
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 6,705 |
Josie,
Busking is not even close to playing for free. It is a gig and as you state you have booked other better paying gigs from it, besides you are getting tips.
What I am speaking about is the what 99% of the replies have addressed and that is the business dangles the lure of a better pay day or even stardom down the road if only you'll sacrifice your payday until he is making enough money to afford you.
Great analogies within this thread but Notes' line regarding who all gets paid at the club IMHO states it best, if they get paid why shouldn't the musicians get paid?
Of course your experience with the open mic cat and you must bring 10 people may just take the cake for the cheapest $@B I have ever heard of. This is now just another reason why I do not go to open mics.
PS: See you at your set this Saturday, you are taking the Jelly by storm.
Later,
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 6,705
Veteran
|
|
OP
Veteran
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 6,705 |
Matt,
Great point, they have a budget for toilet paper but none for live music. Maybe because they know the paper salesman will not give them free toilet paper. LOL
Later,
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 6,705
Veteran
|
|
OP
Veteran
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 6,705 |
I agree totally regarding your statement about busking and will offer another great site/sites . . . anywhere within the French Quarter in New Orleans.
Later,
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 6,705
Veteran
|
|
OP
Veteran
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 6,705 |
All great points Herb.
Thanks,
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 6,705
Veteran
|
|
OP
Veteran
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 6,705 |
Notes,
Nothing left in the shadows within your points Sir all in all some very good guidelines to follow.
Thanks,
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,567
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,567 |
I DO HOPE I am not damaging live music for other musicians by doing so. I wouldn't sweat it at all! Each person should do what is right for them and pay no attention to those who would claim you are harming "real" musicians by working cheap or for free! Funny how someone would make such a claim and then replace real musicians in their own act with BIAB so they can work cheaper!  Where are you working Bugsey?  so nice of you to ask, Chuckles! just last week we got a gig in your neck of the woods for $300! 
Last edited by JohnJohnJohn; 05/18/14 08:25 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 9,322
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 9,322 |
No doubt, there are strong feelings on both sides of this debate. No matter what side you find yourself on, realize that the economy is always the driving force in business decisions. What worked ten years ago may not work now, and in 5 years that will have changed again.
Buggy whip manufacturers didn't see the "automobile thing" coming. Record companies didn't see the "music downloads" thing coming until it was too late. You have to adapt to the changing conditions or you risk being swept away by the changing of the tides. 30 years ago if you had told me that bands would be making HALF the money we were being paid back then...AND.... not adjusted for inflation, I'd have thought you were seriously crazy. Times have changed and certainly not for the better in the live music business.
I believe, that if you want to be successful in the music business, one of those factors is that you don't worry about the money. You play music because you love it, or you don't do it. If you play for a price or you play for free, do it like you're getting paid a million bucks or don't do either. It's not work. It's music.
Anyone who really wants to play to an audience will always find the way to do so. On the street corner, in the nursing homes and hospitals, or on the CMT music awards show..... where there's a will, there tends to be a way.
Musically, I'm where I want to be right now. I've played for free more times than I can remember. I've played for money where I thought I was rich when they handed me that cash at the night's end. I've played for 2 people..... the bartender and the waitress, and I've played on a stage in front of tens of thousands. Like I said in the other post, I've been there and I've done that... more than once.
I have no problem with anyone who is willing to walk on a stage and sing a song for free. Nor do I have any problem with a musician commanding top dollar for their performance.
Everyone has to start somewhere. And I can guarantee, it is a rare musician who has never played for free.
So.... unless you are that rare musician, one who has always been paid to perform and sing from the very first time you ever performed in public, you have no business telling other musicians to "do as I say, not as I do" when it comes to playing for free.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 6,092
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 6,092 |
There was a time, not long ago, when clubs used to hire bands 6 nights a week, and paid them on the off nights knowing that they will make that money back and then some on the hot nights.
By holding an open mic night on an off night, they can avoid paying the band on those nights, and take home more money on the hot nights.
So playing at an open mic night not only exploits the freebie musician, it does hurt the income of the professional musician.
For those of you who go to open mic nights and have a 'day job'. How would you like it if your boss decided to give you Mondays off WITHOUT PAY because someone volunteered to come and do your job for free?
If you are not OK with that, please do unto others.
Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,074
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,074 |
For those of you who go to open mic nights and have a 'day job'. How would you like it if your boss decided to give you Mondays off WITHOUT PAY because someone volunteered to come and do your job for free?
excellent comparison, Notes!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 5,139
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 5,139 |
"It's not work. It's music." I'll try to remember that when I'm loading the amps and PA into the trailer.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,567
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,567 |
So playing at an open mic night not only exploits the freebie musician, it does hurt the income of the professional musician.
For those of you who go to open mic nights and have a 'day job'. How would you like it if your boss decided to give you Mondays off WITHOUT PAY because someone volunteered to come and do your job for free?
If you are not OK with that, please do unto others. A club owner cuts costs by having an open mic night and thereby avoids paying the musicians. You sell/support software designed to allow musicians to cut costs by eliminating the drummer and/or the bass player and/or others. Isn't that pretty much the same thing?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 5,139
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 5,139 |
Actually, it's not. And in the case of most OM's, there is someone getting paid – the person who provides the PA and backline. They're just getting a fraction of what a band would get; and most of them are musicians themselves. Rather cannibalistic, no?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 2,902
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 2,902 |
No doubt, there are strong feelings on both sides of this debate. No matter what side you find yourself on, realize that the economy is always the driving force in business decisions. What worked ten years ago may not work now, and in 5 years that will have changed again.
Buggy whip manufacturers didn't see the "automobile thing" coming. Record companies didn't see the "music downloads" thing coming until it was too late. You have to adapt to the changing conditions or you risk being swept away by the changing of the tides. 30 years ago if you had told me that bands would be making HALF the money we were being paid back then...AND.... not adjusted for inflation, I'd have thought you were seriously crazy. Times have changed and certainly not for the better in the live music business.
I believe, that if you want to be successful in the music business, one of those factors is that you don't worry about the money. You play music because you love it, or you don't do it. If you play for a price or you play for free, do it like you're getting paid a million bucks or don't do either. It's not work. It's music.
Anyone who really wants to play to an audience will always find the way to do so. On the street corner, in the nursing homes and hospitals, or on the CMT music awards show..... where there's a will, there tends to be a way.
Musically, I'm where I want to be right now. I've played for free more times than I can remember. I've played for money where I thought I was rich when they handed me that cash at the night's end. I've played for 2 people..... the bartender and the waitress, and I've played on a stage in front of tens of thousands. Like I said in the other post, I've been there and I've done that... more than once.
I have no problem with anyone who is willing to walk on a stage and sing a song for free. Nor do I have any problem with a musician commanding top dollar for their performance.
Everyone has to start somewhere. And I can guarantee, it is a rare musician who has never played for free.
So.... unless you are that rare musician, one who has always been paid to perform and sing from the very first time you ever performed in public, you have no business telling other musicians to "do as I say, not as I do" when it comes to playing for free. Plus one from me
LyricLab A.I assisted chords and lyric app. Export lyrics and import directly into Band-in-a-Box 2024. https://lyriclab.net Play-along with songs you know and love, download SGU files https://playiit.com/
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,074
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,074 |
"It's not work. It's music." I'll try to remember that when I'm loading the amps and PA into the trailer. this is one reason why I think the online busking sites are part of the new paradigm. Talented people, regardless of their age, can get set up ONCE and perform for pay without ever having to schlep gear... whick kinda puts it back in the realm of fun more than the realm of work. There are more of these sites appearing all the time... you could play the entire circuit, and it would be like touring but without the hassle. Since these sites are spread all over the place, each having its own core group of participants and audience, so especially if you make it known that you have CDs for sale, its a good way to make your music known to a lot of people without going through a middle man who wants a cut. Individuals or bands can perform on these sites.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,567
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,567 |
baloney! if you are using backing tracks to eliminate the cost of other musicians you have no right to complain about a club owner using open mics to eliminate the cost of musicians!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 5,139
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 5,139 |
That's true Pat. It's a lot less stressful than actually playing out. I was merely pointing out that a statement like "It's not work. It's music." is fatuous. Load in, setup, 4 hours of playing, load out and a few hours travel time is indeed work. Not to mention the hundreds of hours in rehearsal, arranging, etc. Anyone who thinks that isn't work is either delusional or has never done it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,074
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,074 |
That's true Pat. It's a lot less stressful than actually playing out. I was merely pointing out that a statement like "It's not work. It's music." is fatuous. Load in, setup, 4 hours of playing, load out and a few hours travel time is indeed work. Not to mention the hundreds of hours in rehearsal, arranging, etc. Anyone who thinks that isn't work is either delusional or has never done it. I agree 100%. The average workin' person would have to kick it into a higher gear in order to pour as much effort into his/her job as the average musician pours into his. still.. I hate that nobody ever applauds when I make a turbine blade at my day job... ;-(
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,567
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,567 |
No doubt, there are strong feelings on both sides of this debate. No matter what side you find yourself on, realize that the economy is always the driving force in business decisions. What worked ten years ago may not work now, and in 5 years that will have changed again.
Buggy whip manufacturers didn't see the "automobile thing" coming. Record companies didn't see the "music downloads" thing coming until it was too late. You have to adapt to the changing conditions or you risk being swept away by the changing of the tides. 30 years ago if you had told me that bands would be making HALF the money we were being paid back then...AND.... not adjusted for inflation, I'd have thought you were seriously crazy. Times have changed and certainly not for the better in the live music business.
I believe, that if you want to be successful in the music business, one of those factors is that you don't worry about the money. You play music because you love it, or you don't do it. If you play for a price or you play for free, do it like you're getting paid a million bucks or don't do either. It's not work. It's music.
Anyone who really wants to play to an audience will always find the way to do so. On the street corner, in the nursing homes and hospitals, or on the CMT music awards show..... where there's a will, there tends to be a way.
Musically, I'm where I want to be right now. I've played for free more times than I can remember. I've played for money where I thought I was rich when they handed me that cash at the night's end. I've played for 2 people..... the bartender and the waitress, and I've played on a stage in front of tens of thousands. Like I said in the other post, I've been there and I've done that... more than once.
I have no problem with anyone who is willing to walk on a stage and sing a song for free. Nor do I have any problem with a musician commanding top dollar for their performance.
Everyone has to start somewhere. And I can guarantee, it is a rare musician who has never played for free.
So.... unless you are that rare musician, one who has always been paid to perform and sing from the very first time you ever performed in public, you have no business telling other musicians to "do as I say, not as I do" when it comes to playing for free. Plus one from me +1
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 6,705
Veteran
|
|
OP
Veteran
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 6,705 |
Somehow, I feel like the oddball in this conversation.
I live in 1 of 18 Nursing Homes owned by the same for-profit corporation. I see nearly nothing being allocated to patient entertainment so I'm attempting an end-run around the corporation out of my love and concern for the patients who have absolutely nothing to say in budgetary matters yet deserve some quality entertainment.
I have no intention to dilute the value of any band or solo entertainer by asking friends to play here for free but, unfortunately, it comes down to free versus none.
I think entertainment money is available but is currently being diverted to beautification, plants, and outdoor detailing. They are currently doing a multimillion dollar remodeling which will provide them an excuse to cry "poverty".
So I'm left with a dilemma; To ask my countless musician friends worldwide to entertain pro bono, or, conversely, to watch the elderly patients with Alzheimer's, Dementia, Chronic Pain, Hospice (end of life) Patients, withdraw further into mental darkness without the stimulation provided by music, the only activity that utilizes 100% of the brain. I choose the former.
Perhaps a deciding factor - there is still room here for your mother! Don, 1st of all you are "in no way" are diluting the pay or worth of anyone, much less musicians. This conversation was started because of so many restaurants, bars and coffee shops using working musicians to ring their registers with no pay to the musician, just promises. Regarding Budgets: Not sure about yours but nearly all nursing homes do have an entertainment budget. However it is up to the entertainment director and management to choose how it is spent, and the good ones spend it on what their clients like. I have seen that entertainment budgets are spent on everything from live entertainment to field trips and even shopping trips to Walmart. For instance in my area it varies market to market, i.e. the live entertainments for nursing homes and retirement facilities budgets for the New Orleans and Gulf Coast area budget for live entertainment runs 75.00 - 125.00. With the nursing homes being on the lower side of that scale, simply because they have smaller budgets than the mega retirement facilities who get pretty big bucks for their apartments, with some even having a required buyin before you can move in. The shows being booked, I might add includes shows from musicians, puppeteers and comedians. While further up the road a few miles the budgets seem to be set a little lower, but likewise the acts in this market tend to charge less for their product than the rest of the state. Point is many musicians limit their paydays because of many reasons only know to them, I can just speculate. With this said I do know we will be rocking your joint on June 27th! and I would "gladly pay out of my pocket" for the "privileged" of doing so . . . might even sing an Irish tune or two. But you may have to buy me a drink for that . . . lol Take care partner,
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 6,705
Veteran
|
|
OP
Veteran
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 6,705 |
I DO HOPE I am not damaging live music for other musicians by doing so. I wouldn't sweat it at all! Each person should do what is right for them and pay no attention to those who would claim you are harming "real" musicians by working cheap or for free! Funny how someone would make such a claim and then replace real musicians in their own act with BIAB so they can work cheaper! John, Just FYI . . . I would love to work live musicians on every gig, and yes would take less pay for many reasons. First of all I do not need the money, secondly I grew up playing with other musicians. But considering my age, the type of music I love to play and how that would relate with the age and type of musicians I would have knocking on my door as a result of a Graig's list ad, I will choose to go with the backing tracks every-time. So for me anyway, the thought of being able to work cheaper never enters into the thought process on the road to decision making. Later,
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Update Your PowerTracks Pro Audio 2024 Today!
The Newest RealBand 2024 Update is Here!
The newest RealBand 2024 Build 5 update is now available!
Download and install this to your RealBand 2024 for updated print options, streamlined loading and saving of .SGU & MGU (BB) files, and to add a number of program adjustments that address user-reported bugs and concerns.
This free update is available to all RealBand 2024 users. To learn more about this update and download it, head to www.pgmusic.com/support.realband.htm#20245
The Band-in-a-Box® Flash Drive Backup Option
Today (April 5) is National Flash Drive Day!
Did you know... not only can you download your Band-in-a-Box® Pro, MegaPAK, or PlusPAK purchase - you can also choose to add a flash drive backup copy with the installation files for only $15? It even comes with a Band-in-a-Box® keychain!
For the larger Band-in-a-Box® packages (UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition), the hard drive backup copy is available for only $25. This will include a preinstalled and ready to use program, along with your installation files.
Backup copies are offered during the checkout process on our website.
Already purchased your e-delivery version, and now you wish you had a backup copy? It's not too late! If your purchase was for the current version of Band-in-a-Box®, you can still reach out to our team directly to place your backup copy order!
Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.
Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!
Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!
If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
Convenient Ways to Listen to Band-in-a-Box® Songs Created by Program Users!
The User Showcase Forum is an excellent place to share your Band-in-a-Box® songs and listen to songs other program users are creating!
There are other places you can listen to these songs too! Visit our User Showcase page to sort by genre, artist (forum name), song title, and date - each listing will direct you to the forum post for that song.
If you'd rather listen to these songs in one place, head to our Band-in-a-Box® Radio, where you'll have the option to select the genre playlist for your listening pleasure. This page has SoundCloud built in, so it won't redirect you. We've also added the link to the Artists SoundCloud page here, and a link to their forum post.
We hope you find some inspiration from this amazing collection of User Showcase Songs!
Congratulations to the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
We've just announced the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
There are 45 winners, each receiving a Band-in-a-Box 2024 UltraPAK! Read the official announcement to see if you've won.
Our User Showcase Forum receives more than 50 posts per day, with people sharing their Band-in-a-Box songs and providing feedback for other songs posted.
Thank you to everyone who has contributed!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forums66
Topics81,577
Posts734,594
Members38,497
| |
Most Online2,537
Jan 19th, 2020
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Dansk
Deutsch - Windows
Español
Français - Windows
Italiano - Windows
Nederlands
Polski
Português
Svenskt
русский
Japanese
Simplified Chinese
Traditional Chinese
Korean