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My son and I had an interesting conversation recently about the reasons why people buy certain instruments, and why that is being changed by technology.
Each wood, pickup, neck length, construction, string gauge etc etc has unique tonal attributes... and the manufacturing techniques of different companies add to that flavor. Traditionally, if you wanted the sound of a Strat or a Martin, you had to buy that instrument to get that sound.
But modeling has gotten to the point where one device can put every guitar, bass or amp at your disposal.. and they really do sound like the original! My son has always bought high end boutique instruments with signature sound... but lately he has been bypassing the sound he paid for in order to use a wide variety of modeled sounds in his gigs.
What advantage then, does the physical instrument bring to the equation?
Apart from the usual stuff that just makes it a nice instrument... a new factor to consider is graphite/carbon fiber construction. These instruments aren't affected by temperature or humidity the way wooden instruments are. Therefore you can set the action VERY low, and not have to worry about a change in environment introducing a buzz at a gig. That's something that can't be modeled.. the instrument either has it or it doesn't.
There are surely other things you want or need in an instrument that absolutely MUST be part of the physical item, and can't be bought in a modeling device. What are your MUST HAVE attributes for an electric instrument?
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I have a mid-80s Ibanez Strat copy that I use as a controller for a Roland VG-88 emulator. It contains dozens of modeled guitars, amps, cabs, and effects. Looking at this right off, the only thing I would like to have is the fingerboard of a Gretsch Country Gentleman, which is almost like a classical neck--wide and flat, with a zero fret. But not for everything. I like the neck and action of the pseudo-Strat just fine for anything from finger picking to flat-out rockin'.
Incidentally, the VG-88 modeling is so good that I haven't heard the actual sound of the guitar in years. It sounds great, I just have no need for it. And I may just be jonesing for that Gretsch neck; the CG is an old friend that I miss dearly. So far I have been able to do everything I need guitar-wise with the Ibey and the Roland.
R.
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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Pat, I don’t think technology has changed the reason to buy a particular instrument at all. Technology is simply a very poor substitute for a particular instrument. modeling has gotten to the point where one device can put every guitar, bass or amp at your disposal.. and they really do sound like the original! They really don’t sound like the original. They sound like electronic parodies of the originals. What advantage then, does the physical instrument bring to the equation? That question is what brings to my mind this thread, even after it’s gone into the death spiral of the second page of the forum after the initial post and only one comment. I remembered this thread as I was watching a 1 hour interview with David Grier and he was talking about the guitar he was playing during the interview. He said something along these lines: “I like this guitar because I can hear it, even when playing with other musicians who are using good quality instruments. Not only can I hear it, but I can feel the vibrations of the back of the guitar on my chest.” Electronic music and modeling are an inevitability for the masses, but somewhere along the line I’d like to think there are still REAL musicians playing REAL instruments and a select few listeners are able to tell the difference. I also hope they keep playing for small but appreciative audiences at living rooms, back porches and acoustic festivals all across the country. From your friend that you’ve called a purist more than once. 
Last edited by bobcflatpicker; 09/16/14 12:13 AM.
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Initially I thought this doesn't apply to me, but then I remembered I have often taken an acoustic bass or piccolo solo etc. on my wind controller. Most non-musicians don't appear to know the difference, but musicians do. Then I also remembered they are making plastic trumpets now, too ...
My wife plays a pair of Rainsong carbon fiber guitars. Not only does she love the deep bass on them, but she can change tunings at will without ever affecting the neck. Plus, if you run over one with your car (did that), they may actually survive.
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Matt,
I've only played a Rainsong guitar once, but that sucker was sweet!
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Technology is simply a very poor substitute for a particular instrument....They really don’t sound like the original. They sound like electronic parodies of the originals. There are some great sample libraries that, when used correctly, are indistinguishable from "real" instruments mainly because they ARE real instruments! These libraries are similar to BIAB in that real instruments are recorded and then reassembled under software control. They are all just tools. I enjoy playing my acoustic guitars an awful lot but I recognize it is only one of the tools in my arsenal. If I am recording and I can get a better guitar sound using BIAB or a high-quality library, well then I will use that tool. If I prefer the sound of my acoustic playing on the recording then I will use that tool! You can build yourself a plate reverb unit for your home studio or you can activate one of hundreds of available VSTs and no one is going to know the difference in your final mixed and mastered recording. (OK, maybe there is someone who could notice but most of us are probably not at a level of mixing/mastering to be able to impress that expert anyway!)
Last edited by JohnJohnJohn; 09/16/14 03:46 AM.
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This technology does not obsolete instruments in my mind but I have thought how useful it can be to preserve certain instruments unique sound.
For example, I have a one of a kind vintage guitar that could be used to create and share BiaB user tracks that posters with modeling software can use the user tracks to re-create vintage sounds using a "real" vintage instrument with a vintage "modeled" amp for their personal recordings. Thus having a sound that would have likely been a popular pairing of instrument and amp from back in the days when both guitar and amp were played by live musicians on stage and recordings.
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The subject has affected even the great ones.
On one of Tommy Emmanuel's youtube videos, he mentions that he no longer
needs to play a "large back", dreadnought-style guitar. Something smaller does just as well because pickups and amping can compensate for that kind of sound.
LLOYD S
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"...back in the days when both guitar and amp were played by live musicians on stage and recordings...." Hey! Some of us dinosaurs are still doing that!  Modeling is fine, but to me, a guitar is like a boat. It should have feel, great lines, and most of all..... character. My wife has a '66 D-28. You ain't modelin' that, jack!
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Samples and sample modeling can very realistic IF one learns MIDI and knows the nuances of the instrument he is trying to emulate. Knowing the acoustic instrument's nuances and knowing what MIDI controls can mimic those nuances are the tricks to getting realistic sounding MIDI instruments.
Sample modeling is the most realistic sounding instruments IMHO. I bought Sample Modeling Saxes because I could not get a realistic sounding MIDI sax with what I had. Even with this super software I could not get what I wanted using my MIDI guitar controller or keyboard. So I bought an EWI-USB wind controller and that made all the difference in the world. I am still trying to learn it and I use it on all wind instruments that I am trying to emulate.
Emulations are coming close but will never replace an acoustic instrument IMHO. Those getting the most realistic sounds from samples or sample modeling usually are people who played the native instrument.
If emulations are so good why are a lot of people using RTs? I think it is the easiest way to get a real instrument into your mix, i.e. they sound real because they are real!
As John cubed said they are tools and use the tool that best fits the job!
PS - I am so old that I remember when synths were mainly used to create new unheard of sounds. Today they are mainly sample players.
PPS- Ryszard I agree. The only guitar that I truely miss is my Country Gentleman. That was one sweat guitar. Like you I loved that wider fret board.
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
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"...back in the days when both guitar and amp were played by live musicians on stage and recordings...." Hey! Some of us dinosaurs are still doing that! Modeling is fine, but to me, a guitar is like a boat. It should have feel, great lines, and most of all..... character. My wife has a '66 D-28. You ain't modelin' that, jack! You missed my point. In context with the subject of "technology changing the reasons to buy a particular instrument"; My point was if someone owns a particular instrument, they could use this modern technology to preserve the unique sound of rare and vintage instruments. Your wife's '66 d-28 is a perfect example for a BiaB user track that some forum members may find useful for one of their productions. R&AM recently found useful User Tracks to use on their last post. Model the user track of the d-28 through a digital model of a vintage '60's amp recreating that unique sound of the two to closely resemble that original sound in 1966. Replicating their "character". Products like BIAB and the modeling simulators are providing us opportunities that were impossible just a few years ago. As for me, I'm sure I would much rather see a "live" performance by "dinosaurs" than any of the recent country shows currently touring. Charlie
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As for me, I'm sure I would much rather see a "live" performance by "dinosaurs" than any of the recent country shows currently touring.
Charlie
Charlie, those are not country shows. They are pop rock shows!
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
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"My point was if someone owns a particular instrument, they could use this modern technology to preserve the unique sound of rare and vintage instruments."
I have to disagree. Sampling technology may be impressive, but even at the highest sampling rates and bit depths, it is still just slices of the analog waveform produced by the instrument.
“Replicating their "character".”
My point exactly. Digital sampling can capture the overall sound of an acoustic instrument, but not the “character”. The character of an instrument is an ephemeral quality that cannot be sampled. Listen to a Stradivarius in a concert hall, then listen to a sample of that same violin.
If you have discerning ears, you will hear the difference.
Why does vinyl sound better than CD? Because it's the complete waveform.
Just my opinion, of course.
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So much of an instrument sound comes from the musician. There are many ancedotes of people having the opportunity to play a famous musician's instrument and the instrument or instrument/amp combination doesn't sound as expected. Meanwhile, the famous artist picks up the $99 beginner special instrument and still gets a quality and pleasing sound.
Guitarists Roy Clark, Brad Paisly and Keith Urban give away guitars at their concerts. All the guitars are used at some point during the concert. The instruments given away sound as they should because they've been properly set up by a professional guitar tech and played by an outstanding artist. Similar stories abound of other artists gifting instruments to students at music clinics or festivals. It's an inspiring way to give back to the music community.
At the same time character can not be denied. Go to a music store and, out of the 15 Strats you try, you'll find one that inspires you and stands tall above the rest. CNC milling, assembly line production and all the other modern production techniques have raised the overall quality of instruments but differences still remain. The differences are getting more difficult to quantify.
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"Why does vinyl sound better than CD? Because it's the complete waveform."
Quote from the Oct. 2014 edition of Recording Magazine by John Davis in an interview about re-mastering the original Led Zeppelin vinyl recordings with Jimmy Page from the original 1/4" masters.
RM: Listening to the raw masters, what was the most striking difference to the previous released versions?
John Davis: " I am a big fan of bottom end, and when listening through to stuff (the recording of) John Bonham never really came through because everyone had to filter out all the sub frequencies to get it onto vinyl. all of the EQed production masters that people used in the past really had nothing below 60 hz, and the original tapes all had stuff on it down to 15 Hz! To me it makes a real difference on these new remasters If you listen to most other '60s bands like Jeff Beck or the Yardbirds, the drums are just sort of a pitter patter in the background; On these tapes, Bonham is like 50% of the sound. It's a massive difference!
The point; All recording media has limitations and are not completely accurate to the live original. The character is influenced by the microphone used, its placement, possibly the strings, the age of the strings, etc., the physical and electrical limitations of the technology of the time period.
Is modeling exact, no. Is CD exact, no. Is Vinyl exact, no. Is tape exact, no. I would suggest that 24/192 is more exact than 16/44.1 and both digital modes have a wider dynamic range than vinyl. Digital may not be as pleasing to the ear for some which is the bottom line for our perception of enjoyment. I haven't thrown my vinyl records away or my 1/4" tapes. I do digitize them but only so I can play them on today's equipment.
To me, it is no different than the fact my ears prefer to listen to User forum songs over the regurgitation of the same song over and over with just different artists played on the radio.
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Absolutely MarioD. I think there is something special about the artist who can exist on his/her voice and musicianship over any glitzy production. I'm disappointed by a TV talent show like The Voice that as the show progresses from the auditions where the vocals are king, into production pieces with dancers, light shows, backing vocalists, auto tuning and such. It's a singing contest and the best singer should prevail. I think the TV producers use those techniques to attempt to influence the voting. Could be wrong but I doubt it.
Charlie
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"Why does vinyl sound better than CD? Because it's the complete waveform."
Quote from the Oct. 2014 edition of Recording Magazine by John Davis in an interview about re-mastering the original Led Zeppelin vinyl recordings with Jimmy Page from the original 1/4" masters.
RM: Listening to the raw masters, what was the most striking difference to the previous released versions?
John Davis: " I am a big fan of bottom end, and when listening through to stuff (the recording of) John Bonham never really came through because everyone had to filter out all the sub frequencies to get it onto vinyl. all of the EQed production masters that people used in the past really had nothing below 60 hz, and the original tapes all had stuff on it down to 15 Hz! To me it makes a real difference on these new remasters If you listen to most other '60s bands like Jeff Beck or the Yardbirds, the drums are just sort of a pitter patter in the background; On these tapes, Bonham is like 50% of the sound. It's a massive difference!
The point; All recording media has limitations and are not completely accurate to the live original. The character is influenced by the microphone used, its placement, possibly the strings, the age of the strings, etc., the physical and electrical limitations of the technology of the time period.
Is modeling exact, no. Is CD exact, no. Is Vinyl exact, no. Is tape exact, no. I would suggest that 24/192 is more exact than 16/44.1 and both digital modes have a wider dynamic range than vinyl. Digital may not be as pleasing to the ear for some which is the bottom line for our perception of enjoyment. I haven't thrown my vinyl records away or my 1/4" tapes. I do digitize them but only so I can play them on today's equipment.
To me, it is no different than the fact my ears prefer to listen to User forum songs over the regurgitation of the same song over and over with just different artists played on the radio. "...all of the EQed production masters that people used in the past really had nothing below 60 hz, and the original tapes all had stuff on it down to 15 Hz!" The original tape to vinyl recordings were mixed for home stereos and car radios, neither of which could reproduce 50 Hz, let alone 15 Hz. Hence the modern proliferation of subwoofers. Will the remastered Zep tracks sound better? To someone who has never heard the vinyl on a great system - yes. The fact is that music recorded on tape is more organic, regardless of the limitations of the medium. Why do you think there are so many "tape saturation" emulation softwares created every year? Because 1's and 0's do not breathe. Go into the red on a 2" tape machine, and you'll get a soft, gentle distortion that compliments the music. Go into the red on a digital recorder..... AAAACCCCKKKKK!!!!! I still maintain that music recorded with analog gear sounds better, and is closer to the original. YMMV.
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There's many topics being intermixed in this thread. For what it's worth, I have opinions on them, some informed, some not. As for sampling vs. vinyl: I used to think that sampling couldn't reproduce the nuances of analog because I imagined it as a 'stair step' representation of the continuous analog waveform. This was an ill-informed presumption on my part. Many moons ago, I had a graduate level digital signal processing course at Purdue, and learned of the magic of D/A conversion with appropriate anti-aliasing filtering on the output of the D/A. You can choose to believe the following or not, but the facts are that the CONTINUOUS analog waveform up to frequency content that is half of the sampling frequency IS represented in analog form after D/A conversion with anti-aliasing. Now, my understanding of tape recording is that it has the ability to record well beyond human hearing range both above and below the generalized 20-20kHz range. However, 90 dB makes a good point that playback ability is often compromised at both ends, due in part to lack of necessity. I am one that grew up in the age of 45s and LPs, then Cassettes, then CDs. My playback systems advanced from a single crappy paper speaker on an all-in-one phonograph, to a slightly better Panasonic 'console' style LP playback system, to CDs, with a nice satellite/subwoofer system. I don't pine for LP sound, partially because I didn't listen to my LPs on anything decent to begin with. With all of that said, I listen nearly exclusively to .mp3 files now, at 192kHz compression/decompression rate (or higher) as a matter of convenience in my car (which has a huge noise floor if I'm moving), or when I'm on a stationary bike with my in-ear monitors - again, a high noise floor situation. Even in low noise floor situations, I'm satisfied with the quality of playback with mp3 files compressed at that rate above or higher. As for instrument sampling for sythesized/simulated instrument playback, here I think there is still much more going on with sympathetic resonance and so forth with most sampled instrument sounds, that it's still difficult to emulate the sound of the original instrument with the nuance and character to satisfy many ears. However, there are huge advances being made with this. Pianoteq for example, which uses I believe a combination of sample playback, as well as physical modeling of the sympathetic resonances of piano playback, including a modeling of the various pedaling/pounding, that it's really hard to tell the difference. https://www.pianoteq.com/instrument_listFor B3, the GSi VB3 is pretty outstanding - so much so that it's the modeling engine inside of this killer B3 synth sold by Crumar: http://www.crumar.it/?a=showproduct&b=4 listen through the demo videos, they rock, plain and simple. That's a physically modeled synth, not samples of B3. In other words, the synth engine uses a mathematical model of how tonewheels work, how the amplifier stages work, etc. to synthesize the sound. I have the VSTi version of this thing and love it. As for plucked stringed instruments, bass guitar is very well done with Trillian for some types of playing: http://www.spectrasonics.net/products/trilian-audio.php?demo_type=all&genreID=45&artistID=all Note that for most actual bass playing and in the demos, there's a 'solo line' going, with little to no multiple-strings being played simultaneously. 6 string guitar - different story. To my ear, synthesis/sampling/simulation still has a long way to go, but these guys are the closest if you ask me: http://www.amplesound.net/en/pro-pd.asp?id=8However, for these 6-string demos, there's had to be a huge amount of learning how to play the controller and midi manipulation to simulate the character. With that much effort, I say just learn how to play the real thing.
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“You can choose to believe the following or not, but the facts are that the CONTINUOUS analog waveform up to frequency content that is half of the sampling frequency IS represented in analog form after D/A conversion with anti-aliasing.” And I would submit that the very process of anti-aliasing vis-à-vis D/A conversion does not accurately reproduce the actual waveform, but rather a synthesis of the waveform. It's probably a moot point these days, though. Most people are quite happy with 192kHz MP3's, which is fine with me. I will still retreat to my old RCA Red Label Toscanini whenever I want to hear real music.
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90dB, D/A conversion is no less a synthesis than the quite inaccurate recording of the ACTUAL acoustic waveform that presented itself at the microphone(s)when your RCA red label Toscanini recording was made, and then re-synthesized through a quite phase-shift laden mechanical process as it was laid as a groove by a mechanical process to vinyl, and also quite mechanically challenged playback methodology of a needle riding in that groove and trying to keep up with the wiggles. We could go around and around about this.
There is no perfect recording process - frequency specific phase shifts abound in any recording/playback process. Now, what may sound familiar and comfortable, like the old Toscanini, may sound good to your ear, no question about that. Not arguing that.
But I submit that properly executed A/D and D/A is a more accurate representation of the original acoustic waveform present at the microphone than vinyl playback. BOTH method synthesize the original waveform. Just because one is an analog playback method using a continuous mechanically etched signal does not mean that it's synthesis method to recreate an analog acoustic signal is more accurate. I would be willing to scan the discussion of this from Proakis and Manolakis' text on this topic. I think you would find it fascinating. Let me know, and I'll make the effort. It was what made me a convert to buying CDs instead of continuing to purchase analog (and the fact that to buy an audiophile quality turntable was becoming increasingly more costly and difficult - not gonna lie there!)
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For the larger Band-in-a-Box® packages (UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition), the hard drive backup copy is available for only $25. This will include a preinstalled and ready to use program, along with your installation files.
Backup copies are offered during the checkout process on our website.
Already purchased your e-delivery version, and now you wish you had a backup copy? It's not too late! If your purchase was for the current version of Band-in-a-Box®, you can still reach out to our team directly to place your backup copy order!
Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.
Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!
Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!
If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
Convenient Ways to Listen to Band-in-a-Box® Songs Created by Program Users!
The User Showcase Forum is an excellent place to share your Band-in-a-Box® songs and listen to songs other program users are creating!
There are other places you can listen to these songs too! Visit our User Showcase page to sort by genre, artist (forum name), song title, and date - each listing will direct you to the forum post for that song.
If you'd rather listen to these songs in one place, head to our Band-in-a-Box® Radio, where you'll have the option to select the genre playlist for your listening pleasure. This page has SoundCloud built in, so it won't redirect you. We've also added the link to the Artists SoundCloud page here, and a link to their forum post.
We hope you find some inspiration from this amazing collection of User Showcase Songs!
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