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#276782 - 12/27/14 03:50 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Jazz Fake books with Melodies ( not just chords ) for BIAB [Re: MusicStudent]
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PhillyJazz Offline
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"Fight Club" was a fictional novel. This is not "Fight Club." Have a nice day.
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#276810 - 12/27/14 07:50 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Jazz Fake books with Melodies ( not just chords ) for BIAB [Re: georgewa]
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flatfoot Offline
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I do not agree with many of the laws, copyright laws among them. But I am not going to talk about breaking copyright laws here.

On these fora, we are the guests of the PG Music company. They publish products, and their success depends on people paying for what they produce. That is reason enough for me not to discuss the availability of products for which copying would be a violation of copyright law. This is PG territory, and I dont want to violate their welcome.


Edited by flatfoot (12/27/14 07:55 PM)
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#276811 - 12/27/14 08:37 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Jazz Fake books with Melodies ( not just chords ) for BIAB [Re: georgewa]
Registered: 01/24/03
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Muzic Trax Offline
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IMO, This is exactly why people use Biab to begin with. To create music using backing tracks that can and will play like the original artist.

Biab will also allow us to play these songs in different styles. To me, that is the beauty of Biab. Playing a song the way I want it to sound.

Trax


Edited by Muzic Trax (12/27/14 08:38 PM)

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#276812 - 12/27/14 09:44 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Jazz Fake books with Melodies ( not just chords ) for BIAB [Re: georgewa]
Registered: 08/08/06
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Loc: California
Robh Offline
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Actually BiaB, and Bob Norton's materials are the type of products that are what is called in the "style off" they sound similar too, are like but are not originals. There are some .MGU files of pubic domain stuff. Also there are .MGU files made by users. But as stated above we need to respect the property of others, and the price ledges of the folks that support this place.

Funny thing to me is when someone say regarding whether something in illegal "it does not bother my conscience"

These are just my thoughts and not condemning anyone. But what is right or wrong is just that, right or
wrong. A conscience is like a muscle, it needs work to be strong to guide us. Hhhmmm interesting conversation.
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#276830 - 12/28/14 04:42 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Jazz Fake books with Melodies ( not just chords ) for BIAB [Re: georgewa]
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PhillyJazz Offline
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There is a phrase called the "letter of the law" vs. the spirit. I have paid for BIAB (and EVERY upgrade) since 1.0 and have never given away a copy to a "needy" friend. I have been asked hundreds of times.

On the other hand, I have often seen frantic requests for leads sheets of obscure tunes where there is likely no commercial source of the sheet music, and little likelihood of its ever seeing print. Will I give that to a fellow musician? Probably.

I have already PAID for legal copies of several fake books, usually TWICE (once in Eb and once in Bb.) Do I, or should I feel guilty about downloading a concert version without paying a THIRD time?

If I PLAY that tune in a venue that is ALREADY paying ASCAP and BMI for the right to have it performed, is THAT fair?

The intent of Copyright was to protect the Intellectual Property of the author/composer and his or her heirs. If the heirs do not care enough to renew the copyright after fifty years such that it gets swooped up by a multi-millionaire, do I feel "unethical" depriving that corporation of $.000002 of income?

There is such as thing as blindly following laws which do not make sense (http://www.dumblaws.com) There are plenty in each state. I have the utmost respect for PG Music and I don't think it violates a trust to have a DISCUSSION on a forum hosted by them on a topic germane to their products. As far as I know, Canada upholds the rights of free speech in the same manner as the U.S.


Edited by PhillyJazz (12/28/14 04:43 AM)
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#276867 - 12/28/14 07:21 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Jazz Fake books with Melodies ( not just chords ) for BIAB [Re: PhillyJazz]
Registered: 12/27/03
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MarioD Online   content
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Originally Posted By: PhillyJazz
T I have the utmost respect for PG Music and I don't think it violates a trust to have a DISCUSSION on a forum hosted by them on a topic germane to their products. As far as I know, Canada upholds the rights of free speech in the same manner as the U.S.


I agree. We can talk about copyright laws and the breaking of them we just can not post any copyrighted music.

I practice my guitar and wind controller using BiaB, a Fakebook and a Notes Norton Fakebook disc. I play the melody once, jam the second chorus then play the melody one last time. I would love to post these but I do not want to get PGMusic in trouble. I'll bet many of us do the same, especially jazz musicians.

PS - just don't tell the music cops that I play covers that my dogs, wife and kids can hear, I can't afford the royalties grin
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#276882 - 12/28/14 09:18 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Jazz Fake books with Melodies ( not just chords ) for BIAB [Re: georgewa]
Registered: 08/08/06
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Robh Offline
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Not to argue PJazz, but so a "millionaire" buys the rights of a tune, his ownership of that property is of less value than anyone else property? I Illustrate, a small time poor farmer owns 100 acres of land and works hard to feed his family from that land, passes it on to his children, and many years later they have lost interest in working that farm, they walk away and a major farming corporation "snatches" it up in a tax sale, is it right to steal the produce from that farm just because the original owner no longer has ownership of it? Is not that corporation afforded the right to protection by the law for the investment in that property?

i agree with you that downloading a copy of a product like sheet music that you already own seems fair. Also if you play a tune in ASCAP or BMI, then the royalties are being legally paid. The intent of copyright law may have been to protect the composer, but that law has been extended or modified to include the owner of those rights and allows the sale or purchase of said rights, just like the sale or purchase of the above mentioned real estate property.

Because a law does not make sense to us does not make it less of a law. sure there are "dumb laws" but copyright infringement is no where near something like "It is illegal to wear a fake mustache that causes laughter in church." or "You may not fish on a camel’s back." I have downloaded may of the free midi files that include melodies, but i don't keep the melodies in tact, as i don't want the melodies to play behind the track bed. I use them because i can make a decent cover, most of which i add and subtract tracks to make them some what unique. I also do not play them for the public, or sell recordings of them i enjoy them at home. if I were to play them out at a venue i would either join BMI and pay the royalty fees or play at a venue that already does.

As far as the respect for PG goes i think common sense dictates that it is fine to have a discussion about these things, but the line may be drawn somewhere around posting copyright protected material, or posting the same materials on their forums.

and hey Mario if they arrest you for playing copyright protected songs for your wife and dog then we may end up being cell mates, hope we get a file in our cake and we make a run for the border like lefty and poncho!
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#276897 - 12/28/14 10:57 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Jazz Fake books with Melodies ( not just chords ) for BIAB [Re: georgewa]
Registered: 12/02/03
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PhillyJazz Offline
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My argument, if you read it, was NOT that it is any more or less ethical to steal from corporations than individual composers or their families, but that the original legal intent of copyright was to protect the intellectual property of same. I just believe that when a copyright expires, and is not renewed by the survivors, that the work should immediately enter Public Domain and not become a commodity to be bought and sold by someone who had no stake in the authorship. I also believe there are few families who inherit farms that would allow them to be sold at a tax auction rather than sell the land for SOME financial gain,

Granted, my opinion does not make the current law any less valid, but it DOES affect my ethical sense in terms of whom (and to what extent) I harm should I decide to ignore the law.

Additionally, it would apparently be legal for me to TRANSCRIBE the melodies and enter them in by hand. I have in fact, done so on many occasions, and as good as it is for my ear, at this point it comes down to a matter of convenience and time. It is just a matter of time before polyphonic transcription of audio matures.


Edited by PhillyJazz (12/28/14 01:11 PM)
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#276991 - 12/29/14 07:37 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Jazz Fake books with Melodies ( not just chords ) for BIAB [Re: georgewa]
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Notes Norton Offline
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I agree the copyright law needs updating, but we are a country of laws. But if everyone ignores all the laws they don't agree with, what will we have? Anarchy? Is that better?

We have the power to change the laws, but as long as we elect people who get nominated with corporate money, we are going to be ruled by those corporations.

Whether you follow the laws depends on either your personal ethics (or lack of ethics), the probability of getting caught and/or the penalty paid if caught.

My business has been audited by BMI twice and I haven't had to change a thing. Obviously the money I paid for legal advice was worth it. So whatever you purchase from Norton Music has passed two BMI legality tests.

(BTW, I'm over 50 and never owned a copy of the illegal Real Book - so now you know one)

My own personal ethics in the music business follows: I'm a professional musician who makes his living doing music and nothing but music. I depend on people paying for my services to make a living. I also believe in "do unto others" so I abide by the copyright laws.

I know that the money I pay is not distributed fairly and the big corporations get the lion's share of the money, but I don't want anyone giving away my hard work, so I don't steal or give away the hard work of others.

But I am not the conscience of the world, those are my personal ethics. I don't even know if it's the smartest thing to do. It just seems right to me. YMMV.

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#277009 - 12/29/14 09:41 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Jazz Fake books with Melodies ( not just chords ) for BIAB [Re: georgewa]
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Robh Offline
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That is my point exactly! We each get to chose what we feel is ethical. But because we are not bothered by it, does not change the legality, and morality of it. Still what one person does is not my concern, and in the long run affects me very little. Just chose to abide by the laws to the best of my ability.

Like i said above i do have a collection of cover song midi files. I have never used them except for my personal enjoyment at home, or to play at a venue that is legally licensed for cover work, like Street Jelly and i always abide by turning in a set list at the end of any show. Mostly I chose to strip them down and re-work them to be unique. I almost always strip the melodies out, and use the basic backing tracks for track beds to add RTs, or personally played tracks to.

free will is a big responsibility i guess. Peace to all and have a great day. Make music!
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#277026 - 12/29/14 12:22 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Jazz Fake books with Melodies ( not just chords ) for BIAB [Re: Notes Norton]
Registered: 11/13/05
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Cerio Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Notes Norton

I know that the money I pay is not distributed fairly and the big corporations get the lion's share of the money, but I don't want anyone giving away my hard work, so I don't steal or give away the hard work of others.


Bob, do you think that using a MGU version of "Autumn Leaves" (for example) for learning the melody and practicing at home is stealing the hard work of others?

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#277071 - 12/29/14 06:16 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Jazz Fake books with Melodies ( not just chords ) for BIAB [Re: Cerio]
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raymb1 Offline
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Bob is probably talking about "Autumn Leaves" being used on a recording for profit without paying the royalty fees or in a club that hasn't paid the ASCAP or BMI fees. No one cares about your use of the song at home. Later, Ray
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#277080 - 12/29/14 08:01 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Jazz Fake books with Melodies ( not just chords ) for BIAB [Re: georgewa]
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Cerio Online   content
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Originally Posted By: raymb1
Bob is probably talking about "Autumn Leaves" being used on a recording for profit without paying the royalty fees or in a club that hasn't paid the ASCAP or BMI fees. No one cares about your use of the song at home. Later, Ray


Well, since the thread is called "Jazz Fake books with Melodies ( not just chords ) for BIAB", I thought we were discussing specifically about the legal / ethical aspects of downloading and using Jazz Fake Books in MGU (a set of chords and a MIDI melody) format.

So, If we're speaking about this specific issue, I would say that nobody in the world would use the MIDI melody of a MGU file (that is, the copyrighted element of the file) in a professional jazz recording. If you think about that, it just doesn't make any sense.

On the other hand, although I don't use BIAB in live situations in clubs, I would say that 99% of the people who do that, just mute the melody track to play the melody themselves. Playing along BIAB in a club with the MIDI melody ON just doesn't make much sense either

So (and please, correct me if I'm wrong) to me it's clear that the great majority of people using jazz standards in MGU format use the files for educational purposes only, just to learn the melody taking advantage of the many features that BIAB offers to make this task much easier (notation, transposing, speeding down the melody, bar looping, playing along the chordsheet, etc, etc, etc). Let's appeal to common sense: what's wrong with that?


Edited by Cerio (12/29/14 08:16 PM)

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#277083 - 12/29/14 08:53 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Jazz Fake books with Melodies ( not just chords ) for BIAB [Re: Cerio]
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raymb1 Offline
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Nothing wrong with that as long as you're doing at home. One should buy legal fake books and not look for illegal freebies on the 'net. If you're looking for jazz and standard songs, Sher Music has almost everything you could want.

http://www.shermusic.com/
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#277099 - 12/30/14 12:12 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Jazz Fake books with Melodies ( not just chords ) for BIAB [Re: MarioD]
Registered: 06/08/05
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Loc: Redondo Beach, Ca.
jazzmammal Offline
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Originally Posted By: MarioD
[quote=PhillyJazz]T I have the utmost respect for PG Music and I don't think it violates a trust to have a DISCUSSION on a forum hosted by them on a topic germane to their products. As far as I know, Canada upholds the rights of free speech in the same manner as the U.S.


Quote:
I agree. We can talk about copyright laws and the breaking of them we just can not post any copyrighted music.


That's not a complete answer.

Originally Posted By: Phillyjazz
As far as I can see, nobody has violated the forum rules by either POSTING links to sites that infringe copyright or requesting same. As far as I know (and I am no a legal scholar) poor taste is not a crime.


Here you're saying you don't think it's a problem to post a link to a site that infringes copyright after I quoted that exact wording from forum rule #8. Ok...

8. Posting (or requesting) links to songs, music or other copyrighted material is forbidden.

"Posting links". You guys just missed this I guess. If that's condescending I apologize.

All I did was mention the OP should stop talking about illegal downloading on the forum. I didn't say if I agreed or not or if I cared or not or if people have used fake books for years or not or any of that crap. All I did was point out the forum rule about that. Amazing how some read things into written comments that are not there.

Also, there is no such thing as free speech on a private forum. They could completely ban any discussion on any subject other than three chord blues in the key of C if they wanted to, it's a private forum.

Bob
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#277114 - 12/30/14 05:18 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Jazz Fake books with Melodies ( not just chords ) for BIAB [Re: georgewa]
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jford Offline
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The issue isn't about use and how you learn a new piece; the issue is about the distribution of the copyrighted material. Computers have made copying and sharing so easy, that the temptation to do so is ever present. When it was a printed book, it took a lot to copy it and give it to someone else. You didn't just push a couple of buttons and say there you go.

Are there MGU files with melodies out there? Sure there are, just like there are video files of top-run movies. The internet has made it easy to access such things, but that doesn't make it legal.

That's why I think Bob Norton has the best solution. Since chord progressions can't be copyrighted and BIAB is a legal program to work, he gets you 75% of the way there. All you need to do then is buy the legal fake book (for which royalties have already been taken care of) that goes along with his fake disks (and he even shows you where to get them), then spend some time either putting the melody in yourself, or just playing from it. If you can't do it, find a friend to do it; heck, you might find your friend likes playing music too.

That keeps everything legal, all parties properly compensated, but still minimizes the work you need to do.

Should copyright laws be changed? I think so. I think copyright in the US today is way too long. Everyone benefits when stuff gets into the public domain. Copyright for 70 years after the death of the composer; come on. That's ridiculous.

Patents are only good for about twenty years (depending on the type you get). But if I create some sort of intellectual property today at the age of 15 and live to 100, then the copyright is good for 85+70=155 years. The United States as a country is only 238 years old. And everything created prior to 1923 (91 years ago) is in the public domain.

And the latest round of copyright law increasess was the result of Walt Disney Company worrying about the mouse coming into the public domain and were able to quietly slip the increase from 50 to 70 years in with what is known as the Sonny Bono law (yes, that Sonny Bono). The irony of course, is that much of Disney's well know music (at least in the early years) was the result of using public domain music, so as not to have to pay royalties themselves.

How about a copyright for 20 years, renewable twice? If you can't make your money in 60 years, well it probably ain't gonna happen. But if you don't renew it, it goes into the public domain after 20 years. And with the internet, it's piece of cake to verify the status of any piece.

My $0.02 worth, and decreasing in value every day.
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#277125 - 12/30/14 06:40 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Jazz Fake books with Melodies ( not just chords ) for BIAB [Re: Cerio]
Registered: 07/06/00
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Notes Norton Offline
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Originally Posted By: Cerio
Originally Posted By: Notes Norton

I know that the money I pay is not distributed fairly and the big corporations get the lion's share of the money, but I don't want anyone giving away my hard work, so I don't steal or give away the hard work of others.


Bob, do you think that using a MGU version of "Autumn Leaves" (for example) for learning the melody and practicing at home is stealing the hard work of others?



If you didn't buy it and the songwriter and publishers weren't paid for it, copyright law says "Yes".

You could have purchased it in a songbook and they would have a few more pennies in their bank account and of course if thousands of people did the same thing, they are out quite a few dollars.

You could have purchased the sheet music and they would have gotten more money. Or purchased a legal recording and learned it by ear.

There are 'fair use' laws, a teacher is allowed to copy music for a student. But if that goes to court, it gets really sticky. It's best if the teacher is a licensed teacher and the student is paying for lessons. If you just declare yourself "teacher" and the recipient "student" it doesn't work. But I'm not a lawyer, don't take this as legal advice.

Insights and incites by Notes
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http://www.nortonmusic.com

100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks

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#277126 - 12/30/14 06:48 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Jazz Fake books with Melodies ( not just chords ) for BIAB [Re: jford]
Registered: 07/06/00
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Notes Norton Offline
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Originally Posted By: jford
<...>That's why I think Bob Norton has the best solution. Since chord progressions can't be copyrighted and BIAB is a legal program to work, he gets you 75% of the way there. All you need to do then is buy the legal fake book (for which royalties have already been taken care of) that goes along with his fake disks (and he even shows you where to get them), then spend some time either putting the melody in yourself, or just playing from it.


Thanks

Originally Posted By: jford
<...>Should copyright laws be changed? I think so. I think copyright in the US today is way too long. Everyone benefits when stuff gets into the public domain. Copyright for 70 years after the death of the composer; come on. That's ridiculous.

Patents are only good for about twenty years (depending on the type you get). But if I create some sort of intellectual property today at the age of 15 and live to 100, then the copyright is good for 85+70=155 years. The United States as a country is only 238 years old. And everything created prior to 1923 (91 years ago) is in the public domain.


I agree. Warner Brothers makes 2 million dollars per year on "Happy Birthday To You" - the melody is in public domain ("Good Morning To You") and the people who wrote the words are long dead.

Originally Posted By: jford
And the latest round of copyright law increasess was the result of Walt Disney Company worrying about the mouse coming into the public domain and were able to quietly slip the increase from 50 to 70 years in with what is known as the Sonny Bono law (yes, that Sonny Bono). The irony of course, is that much of Disney's well know music (at least in the early years) was the result of using public domain music, so as not to have to pay royalties themselves.


Because the USA is now being run by giant corporations. It's no longer government by the people and for the people. We let too much corporate money seep into politics and both major political parties are in corporate back pockets.

Originally Posted By: jford
How about a copyright for 20 years, renewable twice? If you can't make your money in 60 years, well it probably ain't gonna happen. But if you don't renew it, it goes into the public domain after 20 years. And with the internet, it's piece of cake to verify the status of any piece.

My $0.02 worth, and decreasing in value every day.


I'd agree with that, but also stipulate that heirs cannot renew the license after the author dies. It will expire after the current 20 year term is up.

And if a corporate entity buys it, they cannot renew it after it is purchased.

But that will never happen as long as we keep electing the same corporate lapdogs into office.

Insights and incites by Notes
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http://www.nortonmusic.com

100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks

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#277128 - 12/30/14 06:52 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Jazz Fake books with Melodies ( not just chords ) for BIAB [Re: georgewa]
Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 794
Loc: Spain
Cerio Online   content
Journeyman

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 794
Loc: Spain
Ok, I've got it:
BIAB was designed for studying jazz standards, but studying jazz standards (*) with BIAB is illegal, immoral and just plain wrong.

Happy new year for everyone! smile


(*) in MGU format


Edited by Cerio (12/30/14 06:52 AM)

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#277131 - 12/30/14 07:12 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Jazz Fake books with Melodies ( not just chords ) for BIAB [Re: jazzmammal]
Registered: 12/02/03
Posts: 500
Loc: Philly
PhillyJazz Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 12/02/03
Posts: 500
Loc: Philly
Originally Posted By: jazzmammal
Originally Posted By: MarioD
[quote=PhillyJazz]T I have the utmost respect for PG Music and I don't think it violates a trust to have a DISCUSSION on a forum hosted by them on a topic germane to their products. As far as I know, Canada upholds the rights of free speech in the same manner as the U.S.


Quote:
I agree. We can talk about copyright laws and the breaking of them we just can not post any copyrighted music.


That's not a complete answer.

Originally Posted By: Phillyjazz
As far as I can see, nobody has violated the forum rules by either POSTING links to sites that infringe copyright or requesting same. As far as I know (and I am no a legal scholar) poor taste is not a crime.


Here you're saying you don't think it's a problem to post a link to a site that infringes copyright after I quoted that exact wording from forum rule #8. Ok...

8. Posting (or requesting) links to songs, music or other copyrighted material is forbidden.

"Posting links". You guys just missed this I guess. If that's condescending I apologize.

All I did was mention the OP should stop talking about illegal downloading on the forum. I didn't say if I agreed or not or if I cared or not or if people have used fake books for years or not or any of that crap. All I did was point out the forum rule about that. Amazing how some read things into written comments that are not there.

Also, there is no such thing as free speech on a private forum. They could completely ban any discussion on any subject other than three chord blues in the key of C if they wanted to, it's a private forum.

Bob


*********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************

This is why I asked if you were an ADMINISTRATOR of the forum. THAT is who gets to decide what is and is not allowed.

"Here you're saying you don't think it's a problem to post a link to a site that infringes copyright after I quoted that exact wording from forum rule #8. Ok..." WTF??? Where did I EVER even INTIMATE or IMPLY that I "don't think it's a problem?" If you are having difficulty interpreting standard written English, that is something I can't solve. I am done with this thread. I do not have time to deal with misinterpretations of clearly written statements.


Edited by PhillyJazz (12/30/14 07:13 AM)
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