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#305163 - 08/03/15 06:07 AM [Off-Topic] Re: The other side of making a demo...how the pros do it [Re: Planobilly]
Registered: 12/13/13
Posts: 665
olemon Offline
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Registered: 12/13/13
Posts: 665
Always a joy to watch pros at work.

I've talked with a local studio owner/producer/engineer/guitarist. Essentially, he does in his studio what we do with BiaB. Singer-songwriters come to him with their songs and he produces them. He has a sweet studio with high-end gear. Sometimes he'll bring in local musicians, a fiddle player for example, or singers depending on the situation. He sends the song to another studio where the drum tracks are recorded.

I approached him because I wanted to know his prices and if he would mix/master what I'm recording at home via BiaB/RB/Sonar. He listened to a few of my recordings online and in his opinion thought they were adequate.

Now, I know my recordings are not demos and they can always be better, okay. I go back and listen to them now and then...some of them are awful. His mixes are terrific, but I hear productions from people on this site that can compete. And instead of hundreds of dollars per song, it's a few hundred for their whole catalog!

Obviously, there is no substitute for professional musicians in a recording studio. My hope is that I can model that process 'in the box' by taking multiple instances of the generated audio and slicing and dicing until I get something in the ballpark.

One day I may spend the bucks to demo a song or two, but for now I'm quite content, elated actually, with what PG Music has enabled me to do with BiaB!
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#305166 - 08/03/15 06:39 AM [Off-Topic] Re: The other side of making a demo...how the pros do it [Re: Planobilly]
Registered: 05/12/12
Posts: 2393
Loc: South Africa
JoanneCooper Offline
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Registered: 05/12/12
Posts: 2393
Loc: South Africa
Jazzman. I disagree with you when you say it is not possible to produce a good demo using band in a box. You only have to listen to the quality of some of the songs in the user showcase. I have joined deuling mixes (by graham from the recording revolution) and every month they give you the raw tracks and then you see how your mix sounds compared to the "pros". I can tell you that there is nothing wrong with the tracks that biab generates. It is all in how you do the arrangements and mixing. Those raw tracks are no great shakes but the end product (produced by the "pros") is awesome. Me....I am going to keep trying to learn everything I can about this amazing tool and hopefully improve my productions by continually producing music.

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#305169 - 08/03/15 06:46 AM [Off-Topic] Re: The other side of making a demo...how the pros do it [Re: Planobilly]
Registered: 04/20/10
Posts: 4794
Loc: Florida
90 dB Offline
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Registered: 04/20/10
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Loc: Florida
"Biab is a wonderful tool but if you're serious about presenting a demo to producers or publishers you need what's being shown in this video."



I once got offered a contract on a piano ballad from a publisher who had played piano for a virtual Who's Who in Nashville. He particularly liked the piano track on the demo. It was a Soundfont. grin



Regards,

Bob
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#305186 - 08/03/15 10:26 AM [Off-Topic] Re: The other side of making a demo...how the pros do it [Re: Planobilly]
Registered: 08/04/10
Posts: 1621
Loc: Midwest
HearToLearn Offline
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Registered: 08/04/10
Posts: 1621
Loc: Midwest
I have been using BIAB/RB extensively in the studio.

Number of pros who have commented on the tracks being generated or "canned"...0

Just saying, I think it has more to do with what you do with it.

Adding in your own playing (or some else's) goes a long way in making it more believable IF they are any good. If not, it actually hurts you. It screams "amature."



Edited by HearToLearn (08/03/15 11:02 AM)
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#305187 - 08/03/15 10:41 AM [Off-Topic] Re: The other side of making a demo...how the pros do it [Re: 90 dB]
Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 6695
Loc: Redondo Beach, Ca.
jazzmammal Offline
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Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 6695
Loc: Redondo Beach, Ca.
Originally Posted By: 90 dB
"Biab is a wonderful tool but if you're serious about presenting a demo to producers or publishers you need what's being shown in this video."



I once got offered a contract on a piano ballad from a publisher who had played piano for a virtual Who's Who in Nashville. He particularly liked the piano track on the demo. It was a Soundfont. grin


That's not what we're talking about, or at least I don't think so. Was this a Biab generated part or did you play it using the soundfont? We're talking about Biab generated tracks.

Bob
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#305190 - 08/03/15 11:12 AM [Off-Topic] Re: The other side of making a demo...how the pros do it [Re: Planobilly]
Registered: 08/04/10
Posts: 1621
Loc: Midwest
HearToLearn Offline
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Registered: 08/04/10
Posts: 1621
Loc: Midwest
In case I, or anyone else, has maybe strayed too far from the original post...

I love seeing any of this kind of thing!

I also like that it shows people first hand what it is actually like in a studio. The reality and many of the stories I hear are far from each other. This looks accurate to me.

Thanks again for sharing the video!


Edited by HearToLearn (08/03/15 11:12 AM)
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#305212 - 08/03/15 02:40 PM [Off-Topic] Re: The other side of making a demo...how the pros do it [Re: jazzmammal]
Registered: 04/20/10
Posts: 4794
Loc: Florida
90 dB Offline
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Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: jazzmammal
Originally Posted By: 90 dB
"Biab is a wonderful tool but if you're serious about presenting a demo to producers or publishers you need what's being shown in this video."



I once got offered a contract on a piano ballad from a publisher who had played piano for a virtual Who's Who in Nashville. He particularly liked the piano track on the demo. It was a Soundfont. grin


That's not what we're talking about, or at least I don't think so. Was this a Biab generated part or did you play it using the soundfont? We're talking about Biab generated tracks.

Bob




Actually, it was generated in Jammer Pro – vaguely similar to BIAB but only MIDI. I still think it's a valid point. A guy with 40 years of studio work, backing everybody in Nashville, was fooled by a MIDI/Soundfont track. RealTracks, on the other hand, are actual instruments. Mo much betta.

I've been pitching BIAB songs for several years. No one has ever said they thought they sounded canned.



Regards,

Bob
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#305222 - 08/03/15 03:38 PM [Off-Topic] Re: The other side of making a demo...how the pros do it [Re: Planobilly]
Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 19064
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
rharv Offline
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Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 19064
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
Well, that wasn't the Ziggy I was thinking of, but then again, you said you're from TX .. <grin>

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=ziggy+played+guitar
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#305259 - 08/03/15 09:24 PM [Off-Topic] Re: The other side of making a demo...how the pros do it [Re: Planobilly]
Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 7487
Loc: Colorado Springs, CO, USA
rockstar_not Offline
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Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 7487
Loc: Colorado Springs, CO, USA
As a live sound engineer, the most interesting thing I saw in the video was the hand-made 'flapper dampers' on each of Paul's drums. Gonna have to give those a try. One more occasions that I can count, I've made gaffer tape or 'gasp' duct-tape dampers where I fold up a paper towel to about a .25"x2"x2" square and tape that onto the drum head near the rim to tame a ringing snare or rack tom. Works a treat. I think the flapping version in the video would do the same with less of an aggressive effect.

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#305736 - 08/08/15 12:10 PM [Off-Topic] Re: The other side of making a demo...how the pros do it [Re: Planobilly]
Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 5997
Guitarhacker Offline
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Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 5997
My take on demos and the rest....

There are no demos anymore. Well, not demo quality. With home recording advances, and the music coming out of home studios being comparable if not better than some "pro" studios, demo quality is a thing of the past and now days, if you want to be seriously considered and have someone actually listen to the songs, you'd best be producing master quality stuff. Radio ready as it's called or broadcast quality material.

I've said this before, but for the new folks, I was at a songwriter's convention a few years ago in LA. In one of the sessions, they played a #1 song that anyone in country music would have instantly recognized. First they played the "demo" that was submitted and then the actual radio hit by the artist. Seriously.... it was nearly impossible to tell which was which. The demo could easily have been the one on the radio except it was an unknown "demo singer" from 16th Ave. That was simply to show us the quality of the competition and the quality of the demo's going in to the publisher's offices in Nashville. The saying.... Go big or go home.... comes to mind.

That means, good vocals by someone who can sing in key and on pitch and hopefully sounds somewhat like the artist you are pitching to. Instrument parts that don't sound midi, fake, or canned. Production chops that have interesting musical things going on. And a polished, professional sounding mix and finishing. Oh yeah, and the writing and composing better be good too. It all has to be good, no.... it has to be the best of the best.... Super!!! If any part of it is less than stellar.....No matter how much lipstick you put on a pig...it's still a pig.

Can it be done with BiaB? I think so. The musical parts anyway. But you can't usually take the stock tracks straight out of BB and throw it into a mix and call it done. Some work and skill needs to go into making it right. Adding some live tracks and a good singer will set it apart from a straight up BB production. Using tools to make the production pop and sound pro is essential.

I have a number of my straight up (meaning 100% BB tracks with production chops) BB project songs signed to a few of the bigger A list publishers. And a number of the hybrid tracks. So yeah, it's possible. I only had one publisher tell me that an early BB song I sent sounded "too stiff" to use. He suggested I used "live musicians" and resubmit the song.

Watching the pro's work is a thing of beauty. They make it seem so simple but it's not. However, when you learn to look for the things they see (and I heard a number of things in the video that many people miss because they simply don't know) , and then start applying those things to your music and production, there will be a difference for the better in your work.

Details count. It's the details that set the pros apart from the masses.

enjoyed that video.
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#306098 - 08/11/15 05:15 PM [Off-Topic] Re: The other side of making a demo...how the pros do it [Re: Planobilly]
Registered: 12/05/11
Posts: 6439
Loc: GA USA
Janice & Bud Offline
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Registered: 12/05/11
Posts: 6439
Loc: GA USA
I think it is entirely possible with BiaB to have fills, turnarounds and short solos that complement the singer and the melody. FWIW I frequently will regen many, many times to get the "right" feel and often I comp tracks at the bar level down to sometimes a note or two - even rhythm tracks. A single track in my DAW may be comprised of bits and pieces of 15-20 or more regens. Worth the trouble? Dunno but hey that's what the Bud part of J&B does smile
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#306108 - 08/11/15 06:30 PM [Off-Topic] Re: The other side of making a demo...how the pros do it [Re: Planobilly]
Registered: 07/10/15
Posts: 314
Loc: Miami, Florida
Planobilly Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 07/10/15
Posts: 314
Loc: Miami, Florida
Janice, can you clone Bud and send him over...lol

I never in a million years would have imagined this thread would generate so many comments.

One thing is clear, to me at least, Music is a team sport, and these guys in the video have a great team.


Cheers,

Billy

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PG Music News
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-MIDI SuperTracks Set 29: More Organ, Piano & Accordion

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