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#307983 - 08/22/15 05:47 PM [User Showcase] NEW TRACK: Sunset Road
Registered: 08/04/15
Posts: 84
mwgilbert Offline
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Registered: 08/04/15
Posts: 84
"Sunset Road" (instrumental)
4 of 7 - Tangled Roots Project

This is the fourth track of my Tangled Roots project. I wanted to try a jazz piece without horns. I have always liked waltzes, so here's one smile

Lead Guitar: 1713: Guitar, Electric, Soloist WesternSwingBrent Sw 165 (Brent Mason)
Rhythm Guitar: 933: Guitar, Electric, Rhythm JazzWaltzFreeComp Sw 110 (Oliver Gannon)
Violin: 1207: Fiddle, Soloist GypsyJazzBallad Sw 110 (Tim Kliphuis)
Electric Piano: 2191: Piano, Electric, Rhythm JazzWaltz Sw 110 (Miles Black)
Acoustic Bass: 929: Bass, Acoustic, Jazz Waltz Sw 110 (Neil Swainson) & 452: Bass, Acoustic, Soloist Jazz Sw 140 (Neil Swainson)
Drums: JazzBrushesWaltz (Craig Scott)
Composition & Arrangement: MW Gilbert

https://soundcloud.com/mwgilbert/tangled-roots-ep-04-sunset-road

Background of the Tangled Roots Project - please see:
http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=306755#Post306755

Previous tracks:
01 - She Looked Back
http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=306755#Post306755
02 - Remember Me When You
http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=307318#Post307318
03 - Peter's Lament
http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=307602#Post307602

Thanks for listening!
_________________________
- MWG

http://www.mwgilbert.com

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#307986 - 08/22/15 05:56 PM [User Showcase] Re: NEW TRACK: Sunset Road [Re: mwgilbert]
Registered: 01/28/12
Posts: 3139
Loc: Murgon Queensland Australia
Rob4580 Offline
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Registered: 01/28/12
Posts: 3139
Loc: Murgon Queensland Australia
Very moody. Nice work.
Rob

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#308044 - 08/23/15 09:04 AM [User Showcase] Re: NEW TRACK: Sunset Road [Re: mwgilbert]
Registered: 06/22/12
Posts: 2868
Loc: Karlsruhe, Germany
boehm Offline
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Registered: 06/22/12
Posts: 2868
Loc: Karlsruhe, Germany
Hi Michael,

nicely arranged.
I like your project.
Interesting chords.

Guenter
_________________________
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Latest Song: What You Desire

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#308084 - 08/23/15 04:04 PM [User Showcase] Re: NEW TRACK: Sunset Road [Re: mwgilbert]
Registered: 08/04/15
Posts: 84
mwgilbert Offline
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Registered: 08/04/15
Posts: 84
Thanks to both Rob and Guenter for listening and the kind comments. Yes, it is moody indeed, as was I when I wrote it....
_________________________
- MWG

http://www.mwgilbert.com

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#308090 - 08/23/15 06:06 PM [User Showcase] Re: NEW TRACK: Sunset Road [Re: mwgilbert]
Registered: 09/27/10
Posts: 3426
Loc: Sacramento, California
dcuny Offline
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Registered: 09/27/10
Posts: 3426
Loc: Sacramento, California
Interesting.

Without a melody to guide it, there's a sort of "lurching" quality to the piece.
_________________________
-- David Cuny
My virtual singer development blog

Vocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?

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#308129 - 08/24/15 06:45 AM [User Showcase] Re: NEW TRACK: Sunset Road [Re: dcuny]
Registered: 08/04/15
Posts: 84
mwgilbert Offline
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Registered: 08/04/15
Posts: 84
Originally Posted By: dcuny
Interesting.

Without a melody to guide it, there's a sort of "lurching" quality to the piece.


True. The limitation (quickly discovered) of attempting something almost entirely in BiaB is that there is no RealTrack in melody (or no melody in RealTrack). Most of the time, inputting MIDI notes (after the fact in a DAW) and trying to make it happen with a VST is never 100% successful.

Of course, one can write the part, and then either play it in, or get a session player to do so. For that matter, one could do the whole piece with session players and not use BiaB.

This project is just - a project. I wanted to see what I could do with my concept JUST using BiaB. It is almost there, but I had to do a lot(!) of post-editing and production.

I played this track for Tim Kliphuis (violin) (who I encounter in other musical orbits) and he more or less said the same thing - why not just get the right players?

Thanks for listening and commenting!
_________________________
- MWG

http://www.mwgilbert.com

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#308132 - 08/24/15 08:12 AM [User Showcase] Re: NEW TRACK: Sunset Road [Re: mwgilbert]
Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 13797
Loc: Hamlin NY
MarioD Online   content
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Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 13797
Loc: Hamlin NY
Originally Posted By: mwgilbert

Most of the time, inputting MIDI notes (after the fact in a DAW) and trying to make it happen with a VST is never 100% successful.



First I liked the song. A good mixture of sounds and a good mix.

Second, I respectfully disagree with your MIDI statement. I add MIDI to RTs quite a bit. If your "never 100% successful" statement is true then either you need better sounding VSTis and/or your MIDI or music techniques need improving, no disrespect intended. Getting good sounding MIDI takes time as you must learn how MIDI works and you must have the tools to make it work such as good sounding VSTis and MIDI controllers.

Again I mean no disrespect as I've been there and done that. I will listen to some MIDI stuff that I did a few years ago and man does it suck! I did not have the skills to pull it off. Plus I am still learning about MIDI and music. So much to learn and so little time.

As I said I did like this song.
_________________________
It has been a joy being quarantined with my wife. We've caught up on all the things I have done wrong in our 53 years of marriage!

64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB and RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software and some hardware.

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#308162 - 08/24/15 01:51 PM [User Showcase] Re: NEW TRACK: Sunset Road [Re: MarioD]
Registered: 08/04/15
Posts: 84
mwgilbert Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/04/15
Posts: 84
Originally Posted By: MarioD

First I liked the song. A good mixture of sounds and a good mix.

Second, I respectfully disagree with your MIDI statement. I add MIDI to RTs quite a bit. If your "never 100% successful" statement is true then either you need better sounding VSTis and/or your MIDI or music techniques need improving, no disrespect intended. Getting good sounding MIDI takes time as you must learn how MIDI works and you must have the tools to make it work such as good sounding VSTis and MIDI controllers.

Again I mean no disrespect as I've been there and done that. I will listen to some MIDI stuff that I did a few years ago and man does it suck! I did not have the skills to pull it off. Plus I am still learning about MIDI and music. So much to learn and so little time.

As I said I did like this song.


Mario,

To clarify:

You, certainly from the tracks of yours I have heard and enjoyed, do have the chops to play a MIDI controller and make it work well.

I, purely as a player, do not. And my current lifestyle is such that I am not likely to acquire them if or until I have lots of practice time. Lots.

So my comments are based on the notation --> MIDI --> virtual instrument concept, and NOT for the moment on the controller --> MIDI --> virtual instrument concept.

For me to write out parts, not just changes, to have them be composed melodic elements that can be combined with the other BiaB elements, will only really work if someone (other than me) plays them interpretively on a controller or the real instrument, either way.

So I do get your point. I just don't have the resources to do it justice smile

Thanks for listening, and the discussion. Always worthwhile!
_________________________
- MWG

http://www.mwgilbert.com

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#308163 - 08/24/15 02:03 PM [User Showcase] Re: NEW TRACK: Sunset Road [Re: mwgilbert]
Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 13797
Loc: Hamlin NY
MarioD Online   content
Veteran

Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 13797
Loc: Hamlin NY
Originally Posted By: mwgilbert
Originally Posted By: MarioD

First I liked the song. A good mixture of sounds and a good mix.

Second, I respectfully disagree with your MIDI statement. I add MIDI to RTs quite a bit. If your "never 100% successful" statement is true then either you need better sounding VSTis and/or your MIDI or music techniques need improving, no disrespect intended. Getting good sounding MIDI takes time as you must learn how MIDI works and you must have the tools to make it work such as good sounding VSTis and MIDI controllers.

Again I mean no disrespect as I've been there and done that. I will listen to some MIDI stuff that I did a few years ago and man does it suck! I did not have the skills to pull it off. Plus I am still learning about MIDI and music. So much to learn and so little time.

As I said I did like this song.


Mario,

To clarify:

You, certainly from the tracks of yours I have heard and enjoyed, do have the chops to play a MIDI controller and make it work well.

I, purely as a player, do not. And my current lifestyle is such that I am not likely to acquire them if or until I have lots of practice time. Lots.

So my comments are based on the notation --> MIDI --> virtual instrument concept, and NOT for the moment on the controller --> MIDI --> virtual instrument concept.

For me to write out parts, not just changes, to have them be composed melodic elements that can be combined with the other BiaB elements, will only really work if someone (other than me) plays them interpretively on a controller or the real instrument, either way.

So I do get your point. I just don't have the resources to do it justice smile

Thanks for listening, and the discussion. Always worthwhile!


Ok, now I understand and I agree with you.

If you do take the time to input MIDI via notation, the hardest way to input MIDI IMHO, it will still sound very static and not realistic in any way.

I apologize upset you, that was not my intention.
_________________________
It has been a joy being quarantined with my wife. We've caught up on all the things I have done wrong in our 53 years of marriage!

64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB and RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software and some hardware.

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#308166 - 08/24/15 03:23 PM [User Showcase] Re: NEW TRACK: Sunset Road [Re: MarioD]
Registered: 08/04/15
Posts: 84
mwgilbert Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/04/15
Posts: 84
Originally Posted By: MarioD

Ok, now I understand and I agree with you.

If you do take the time to input MIDI via notation, the hardest way to input MIDI IMHO, it will still sound very static and not realistic in any way.

I apologize upset you, that was not my intention.

No worries. No upset.

As I said, I have enjoyed your playing, and respect your input smile



Edited by mwgilbert (08/24/15 03:23 PM)
_________________________
- MWG

http://www.mwgilbert.com

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#308182 - 08/24/15 06:10 PM [User Showcase] Re: NEW TRACK: Sunset Road [Re: mwgilbert]
Registered: 09/27/10
Posts: 3426
Loc: Sacramento, California
dcuny Offline
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Registered: 09/27/10
Posts: 3426
Loc: Sacramento, California
For me, melody is king.

You've got the form and surface details, but there's no melodic idea that's holding it together. It's like listening to a guitar solos that consists of bunch of licks that are strung together - there are some pleasant moments, but it the end, it doesn't go anywhere.

Getting BiaB to create a cohesive melody with RTs is possible - see this and this for a couple my own attempts. As you've discovered, it required lots of cutting and pasting, stretching and pitch-shifting individual notes, and then looking the other way when the timbre didn't quite match up.

In the end, it's an interesting puzzle of trying to match bits up, but isn't necessarily the ideal way to go about creating a composition.

On the other hand, there are some fantastic sampled instruments available these days. And with some creative editing, it's possible to take an average MIDI instrument and get some surprisingly good results.

But that's just my opinion, and I wouldn't want any of this discourage you from experimenting!
_________________________
-- David Cuny
My virtual singer development blog

Vocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?

Top
#308186 - 08/24/15 07:39 PM [User Showcase] Re: NEW TRACK: Sunset Road [Re: dcuny]
Registered: 08/04/15
Posts: 84
mwgilbert Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/04/15
Posts: 84
Originally Posted By: dcuny
For me, melody is king.

You've got the form and surface details, but there's no melodic idea that's holding it together. It's like listening to a guitar solos that consists of bunch of licks that are strung together - there are some pleasant moments, but it the end, it doesn't go anywhere.

Getting BiaB to create a cohesive melody with RTs is possible - see this and this for a couple my own attempts. As you've discovered, it required lots of cutting and pasting, stretching and pitch-shifting individual notes, and then looking the other way when the timbre didn't quite match up.

In the end, it's an interesting puzzle of trying to match bits up, but isn't necessarily the ideal way to go about creating a composition.

On the other hand, there are some fantastic sampled instruments available these days. And with some creative editing, it's possible to take an average MIDI instrument and get some surprisingly good results.

But that's just my opinion, and I wouldn't want any of this discourage you from experimenting!

And a good opinion. I'm not promoting this as anything other than trying to see what can be done in BiaB, never having used it before this project. I might not use this method to create music for release (albums? Remember them? https://itunes.apple.com/us/artist/michael-william-gilbert/id16739698) as I do use techniques that resemble or include the ones you describe above. And I do use lots(!) of sampled instruments, often combined with a lot of compulsively over tweaked MIDI edits smile

Putting aside the Melodist and Soloist parts of BiaB for the moment, you can give a RealTracks "player" a lead sheet of changes, and an arrangement in the form of bar controls and sections, etc., and the RealTracks "player" (carefully chosen and maybe massaging the audio data afterwards) can come up with a cohesive interpretation and rendition of what you have written. Like a session player.

What you can't do in this model is to write out a melody line or lines and give that to a RealTracks player to "interpret". Like a session player.

Look, I've spent many years playing all kinds of tricks to create music, and I do get that there are no meaningful shortcuts; usually when one tries to take them they turn out to be the long way around anyway...

In a sense, BiaB is a form of algorithmic performance (as opposed to composition, again leaving out the Melodist and Soloist) and it has certainly been fun listening to different musical personalities be superimposed on my changes. I do agree, though, in many situations it isn't necessarily an ideal way to go about creating a composition. In the end it is an interesting puzzle of trying to match bits up, and puzzles can be fun just in the doing.

I don't find your comments the least bit discouraging, and I have enjoyed receiving and thinking about them.




Edited by mwgilbert (08/24/15 07:41 PM)
_________________________
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http://www.mwgilbert.com

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#308187 - 08/24/15 08:12 PM [User Showcase] Re: NEW TRACK: Sunset Road [Re: dcuny]
Registered: 08/24/07
Posts: 1501
Loc: Florida, USA
cubanpete Offline
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Registered: 08/24/07
Posts: 1501
Loc: Florida, USA
I agree with David, although interesting piece especially by the way you combined the different instruments there is a lack of some "glue" to hold it together. I have fallen into that trap a few times myself. Having said that, I think that in a few occasions I have been able to come up with a midi melody and even soloist using a decent VST in which I was quite happy with the result (modesty aside). BTW David I never heard before the ones you posted as a sample, I'm very impressed with them. I just can imagine the work you put into it, wow!

Mike B.
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#308228 - 08/25/15 06:58 AM [User Showcase] Re: NEW TRACK: Sunset Road [Re: mwgilbert]
Registered: 12/05/11
Posts: 8836
Loc: GA USA
Janice & Bud Offline
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Registered: 12/05/11
Posts: 8836
Loc: GA USA
Enjoyed it. We had a great friend who frequently played gypsy jazz
on his fiddle during some of our jams. We've also listened to our
fair share of Stephane Grappelli.

I slice up and paste RT's for fills and turnarounds and short solos.
I don't think I have the ear or patience to attempt it for an instrumental.

Fun listen.

J&B

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#308233 - 08/25/15 07:58 AM [User Showcase] Re: NEW TRACK: Sunset Road [Re: Janice & Bud]
Registered: 08/04/15
Posts: 84
mwgilbert Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/04/15
Posts: 84
Originally Posted By: Janice & Bud
Enjoyed it. We had a great friend who frequently played gypsy jazz
on his fiddle during some of our jams. We've also listened to our
fair share of Stephane Grappelli.

I slice up and paste RT's for fills and turnarounds and short solos.
I don't think I have the ear or patience to attempt it for an instrumental.

Fun listen.

J&B
Thanks for listening and the kind comments!

I will be posting this soon, but here's a little preview:
https://soundcloud.com/mwgilbert/tangled-roots-ep-06-django-in-june

(Django in June is an annual gypsy jazz event in Northampton, MA. As a regular, I have met a few of the RT players on this tune.)
_________________________
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http://www.mwgilbert.com

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#308275 - 08/25/15 03:11 PM [User Showcase] Re: NEW TRACK: Sunset Road [Re: mwgilbert]
Registered: 10/13/14
Posts: 1679
Loc: Cremona-Italy
Sergio Guarneri Offline
Expert

Registered: 10/13/14
Posts: 1679
Loc: Cremona-Italy
Hello,

good listening to me.
Hello.

Sergio.
_________________________

Sergio

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#308305 - 08/25/15 07:44 PM [User Showcase] Re: NEW TRACK: Sunset Road [Re: Sergio Guarneri]
Registered: 08/04/15
Posts: 84
mwgilbert Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/04/15
Posts: 84
Originally Posted By: Sergio Guarneri
Hello,

good listening to me.

Sergio.
Thanks for listening and the comment. It started me listening to your tracks.
_________________________
- MWG

http://www.mwgilbert.com

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#308517 - 08/28/15 06:39 AM [User Showcase] Re: NEW TRACK: Sunset Road [Re: mwgilbert]
Registered: 11/19/12
Posts: 2360
Loc: Middletown, PA.
44kfl Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/19/12
Posts: 2360
Loc: Middletown, PA.
I really enjoyed this, great back and forth exchange with instruments, love the sound.

Kenny

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#308642 - 08/29/15 10:50 AM [User Showcase] Re: NEW TRACK: Sunset Road [Re: 44kfl]
Registered: 08/04/15
Posts: 84
mwgilbert Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/04/15
Posts: 84
Thanks very much for the listen, Kenny, and the kind comments. I appreciate it!
_________________________
- MWG

http://www.mwgilbert.com

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#308648 - 08/29/15 12:58 PM [User Showcase] Re: NEW TRACK: Sunset Road [Re: mwgilbert]
Registered: 12/21/13
Posts: 5564
Loc: Davis, CA
Greg Johnson Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/21/13
Posts: 5564
Loc: Davis, CA
Very interesting listen!! Really interesting and well-constructed music. Arrangement is great. The song always stays interesting. You obviously have a good knowledge of music theory. Enjoyed much! Take care. Greg

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