Previous Thread
Index
Next Thread
Print Thread
Go To
Page 4 of 4 1 2 3 4
Off-Topic
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 18,256
Veteran
Online Content
Veteran
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 18,256
Originally Posted By: jazzmandan
...

So riddle me this. Given that the RT-midi was manually transcribed for notation, then how did velocity get coded? I suspect some degree of midi-recording for piano was done, some of the time, for some of the RTs.

It's possible that they took the raw MIDI, and applied filters to selectively filter out everything except note-on / note-off events. This would significantly reduce the storage size of the MIDI data. This is only a hunch mind you, I'm not sure what methods were actually used, but this would deliver such results.
Trev


BIAB & RB2024 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
Off-Topic
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 6,080
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 6,080
I must respectfully disagree with your assessment Bob. 25 years ago that may have been true, but definitely not today.

A good MIDI just like a good RT captures a players performance. And like live players, you have good performances and bad ones. It is not right to compare bad MIDI performances to good live ones or vice versa.

I record everything live with an appropriate MIDI controller so what you get from me and many others is a capture of a players performance. It doesn't take 20 years of learning how to work MIDI, like the Real Tracks it just takes learning how to play a musical instrument.

Because the performance is captured by MIDI instead of an analog to digital controller, it isn't any less of a performance than one captured by an acoustic instrument.


The acoustic controllers on a piano are pedals soft, sostenuto, and sustain. Also available on a good electronic piano, except they are electronic switches.

An acoustic piano changes the volume and timbre with how hard you hit the keys. An electronic piano measures how hard you hit the keys (by how fast it goes from open to closed - velocity) and a decent playback synth changes the volume and timbre according to the velocity.

A lot of the live pianos you hear on modern recordings from Nashville, New York, LA and elsewhere were done with electronic pianos. Between the keys and pedals and the sound generation of the piano there is MIDI data.

My saxophone controls pitch and timbre with a reed. My wind controller sends out pitch and timbre messages to my VL70-m synth with a 'reed'. My sax controls volume and timbre with the force of the air across the reed. My wind controller has a breath pressure sensor that controls the volume and timbre with the force of the air stream.

If you haven't done so already, go to http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=330647&page=1 and watch me play the wind synth. If I put a MIDI sequencer on the end of the synth, it would record the performance in MIDI and generate it exactly as it was played, providing the synth was good enough to do so (cheap sound card soft synths cannot).

Recording the MIDI data and playing it back would sound identical to the live performance.

The fact that there are MIDI performances in virtually every pop record made in the last 25 or so years should be enough to convince you that MIDI captures live performance just as much as an audio recording does, just in a different way.

Anyone who can play a RT piano part can do the same thing with a MIDI piano and record his/her performance as MIDI data. When played back with a good synth, it will sound like he played it live.

He/she doesn't need 20 years or 20 seconds to learn MIDI, just start the recorder, sit down at the keys and play.

But with MIDI you can play it back on different pianos. If he/she played it on a Steinway, you can choose to have the performance on a Yamaha. You can get more radical and play the very same performance back on a Rhodes, Clav, Guitar, Celeste, Vibraphone, or whatever you have in your synth.

Sure you can step-enter MIDI and massage it to sound better, and plenty of people do, which is why MIDI gets a bad name.

Or you can play the parts live and with a good controller and playback synth end up with a musically nuanced recording of a live performance - every bit as nuanced as an acoustic instrumet - but thousands of times more editable.

Quote:
Excerpt from Electronic Musician (EM) February 2013 by Craig Anderton:

…Thirty years ago, at the 1983 Winter NAMM show, a Sequential Circuits Prophet-600 talked to a Roland JX-3P and MIDI went mainstream. Since then, MIDI has become embedded in the DNA of virtually every pop music production (yes I stole that line from Alan Parsons, but I don't think he'll mind)…


The following recordings were made with MIDI instruments, recorded either on the gig or a home studio, and would sound exactly the same played back with the same MIDI data on the same synth.

Clip 1 Clip 2 Clip 3 Clip 4

When recording these, I did not even think about MIDI. I just put the instrument in my hands and played. I used the same sax playing skills I've had since junior high school. Just like the RT performer used his/her instrumental skills.

They are MIDI performances and they are LIVE performances as well.

There is no significant difference - except with MIDI you can edit the result.

Quote:
Excerpted from Keyboard magazine, March 2014 by Craig Anderton:

…Today you can easily record 100 tracks of digital audio on a basic laptop, so MIDI may seem irrelevant in the studio. Yet MIDI remains not only viable, but valuable, because it lets you exploit today's studio in ways that digital audio still can't.



Deep editing. Digital audio allows for broad edits, like changing levels or moving sections around, and editing tools such as Melodyne are doing ever more fine-grained audio surgery. But MIDI is more fine grained still: You can edit every characteristic of every performance gesture: dynamics, volume, timing, the length and pitch of every note, pitch-bend, and even which sound is being played. MIDI data can tell a piano sound what to play, or if you change your mind, a Clavinet patch. With digital audio, changing the instrument that plays a given part requires re-recording the track….but MIDI can do much more…



I'm not dissing RTs, there are uses for both RTs and MIDIs. Different tools.

That's why carpenters have more than one tool in their tool chest. A crescent wrench will drive a nail, but a hammer does that better. Sometimes a socket wrench will do, for other applications a pair of pliers is the right tool. Sometimes RTs work perfectly, other times MIDI will do the job better.

Insights and incites by Notes


Bob "Notes" Norton smile Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com

100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
Off-Topic
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,687
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,687
This is all true but lets get this back to the real world we're talking about here. We're talking about a Biab user use knows nothing about midi and is probably not interested in spending thousands on top level synths.

Also I have to make a point that Trevor made about his Roland RD keyboard. I know all about that stuff, I have a Kurzweil PC3, a Hammond SK1, a Roland FA06, A Korg Pa1xPro, plus several more. I also have a Knabe antique parlor grand I completely rebuilt myself 10 years ago. Yes, you can capture a pretty good midi performance on a midi piano but when you talk about pedaling, only a few keyboards allow for half pedaling for example. Some synths will read that data, some won't.

Of course midi is all over the place. It's in movie soundtracks and in lots of other studio performances. We're not talking about that here. Again we're talking to some noob Biab users who know squat about all that.

It's so easy for a bunch of experienced musician nerds like us to get sidetracked into the high level technical details of this as soon as someone like me tries to put it into simple enough terms so a noob can understand it.

I can't speak for some of the posters in this thread, I'm simply making assumptions based on what they posted. I "get the impression" they're not interested in spending lots of cash on this stuff. They're using the basic GM synths and maybe they might step up to getting a little bit deeper in SampleTank or something but that's about it. That makes all this high level midi stuff that is certainly being done a lot on a professional level completely irrelevant to them.

Bob


Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
Off-Topic
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 6,080
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 6,080
You are correct, most posters don't want to spend a lot of cash.

With one decent synth you can have a nuanced MIDI performance by another musician as easily as you can have a nuanced RT performance by another musician.

There's an SD2 on in Ebay right now at $102.50 current bid, a Roland Sound Canvas for $60 buy it now, and a much better SC-88 for $189.95 buy it now. We're not talking 'break the bank' money. Many people spend more than that a month on Cable TV.

And these are consumer level synths and don't cost nearly as much as a Kurzweil or SD90 pro level piece of gear.

And unlike the digital audio file, when you get MIDI performances on your computer you can transpose, speed up, slow down without artifacts, change the instrument, and do hundreds of other things you cannot do with the Audio recordings.

For most of us, computer music is a toy, and with MIDI as one of my toys, I get to do a lot more playing.

The investment of a good MIDI synth will last for years and years and years. It will improve your BiaB listening experience and allow you to enjoy the thousands of MIDI styles and songs as much as you do the RTs.

Plus it's a new toy and can inspire some on a new adventure in music.

Notes

Last edited by Notes Norton; 01/11/16 07:08 AM. Reason: typo

Bob "Notes" Norton smile Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com

100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
Off-Topic
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 11,332
DrDan Offline OP
Veteran
OP Offline
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 11,332
Originally Posted By: jazzmammal
.... We're talking about a Biab user use knows nothing about midi and is probably not interested in spending thousands on top level synths.

... Again we're talking to some noob Biab users who know squat about all that.


You got to give me a little more credit than that Bob. grin
And by the way, I do have a pretty penny invested in gear.

While I do appreciate your point, the problem is you present the impression that it takes not only a talented piano player with a good set of keys, but also two stage hands to pull levels and throw valves, a producer to coordinate the whole thing and a sound engineer in order to "record" a performance in midi. In fact the required controllers for a piano appear to be built into any setup keyboard and follow the artist. No all that complex. So I do feel I get it now.

The real issue at hand is how does BIAB implement and provide the midi. That is where this started and I think I got it now. While they could have done it in different ways, they did what they did.


Dan, BIAB2024, SoundCloud Win11, i7(12thGen), 32GB, 1TB SSD(M.2 NVMe SSD), 2TB Libraries, 1 TB(WD-Black), 2TB SSD(M.2 NVMe SSD)Data, Motu Audio Express, Keystation 61, SL88 Studio, Reaper

Off-Topic
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 12,580
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 12,580
Let's also not forget what the purpose of RealCharts is (was?). It was to allow you to "see" what the person was playing. A side benefit was that you could (in many, but not all) cases take the notation and use it as MIDI. But the original intent was so that for those that read music, you could see (while hearing) what the artist was doing.

I think it's great that you can use that MIDI/notation to assign other instruments, change some notes, etc., but it was never advertised as "the performance" to allow you to change a few notes and still recreate that performance with those changes. It purpose is to serve as the fakebook version of the performance.

It's great that you can use it (albeit limited) for a few other things, but that was never the intent (as I understand it).


John

Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 2x2TB, 1x4TB SSD
Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 2x1.5TB, 2x2TB, 1x4TB SATA

BB2024/UMC404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/MixBus/Notion/Finale/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK

http://www.sus4chord.com
Off-Topic
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,687
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,687
That's exactly correct John and I mentioned that earlier.

Dan,I wasn't just referring to you, there were a couple of others earlier who seem to have dropped out. It's good you have an idea about how this works.

Concerning the half pedaling I mentioned above I just did a quick search on that and found tons of people asking about it. Very tricky and without that option a piano midi track can sound pretty stiff. To do partial pedaling you need a proper pedal first of all that sends continuous sustain controller messages, not just the much more common sustain on/off. Trevor's Roland has that built in but when you're talking about using other midi controllers like a guitar controller and using that to trigger a softsynth you're diving into a minefield as to whether you can get proper pedaling to sound on a piano midi track or not and it makes a huge difference in the sound.

Bob


Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
Off-Topic
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 20,638
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 20,638
Originally Posted By: jazzmammal


Concerning the half pedaling I mentioned above I just did a quick search on that and found tons of people asking about it. Very tricky and without that option a piano midi track can sound pretty stiff. To do partial pedaling you need a proper pedal first of all that sends continuous sustain controller messages, not just the much more common sustain on/off. Trevor's Roland has that built in but when you're talking about using other midi controllers like a guitar controller and using that to trigger a softsynth you're diving into a minefield as to whether you can get proper pedaling to sound on a piano midi track or not and it makes a huge difference in the sound.

Bob


If a guitarist or a MIDI keyboard without a programmable expression pedal wants to achieve half pedaling they would need two things. One a softsynth that has that capability and an programmable expression pedal that sends 0 through 127, not one that only send 0 and 127 - off and on. One like this would work nicely for half pedaling:

http://www.amazon.com/Behringer-FCB1010-BEHRINGER/dp/B000CZ0RK6/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1452557501&sr=8-7&keywords=midi+expression+pedal


Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.

64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Go To
Page 4 of 4 1 2 3 4

Link Copied to Clipboard
ChatPG

Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.

ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.

PG Music News
Convenient Ways to Listen to Band-in-a-Box® Songs Created by Program Users!

The User Showcase Forum is an excellent place to share your Band-in-a-Box® songs and listen to songs other program users are creating!

There are other places you can listen to these songs too! Visit our User Showcase page to sort by genre, artist (forum name), song title, and date - each listing will direct you to the forum post for that song.

If you'd rather listen to these songs in one place, head to our Band-in-a-Box® Radio, where you'll have the option to select the genre playlist for your listening pleasure. This page has SoundCloud built in, so it won't redirect you. We've also added the link to the Artists SoundCloud page here, and a link to their forum post.

We hope you find some inspiration from this amazing collection of User Showcase Songs!

Congratulations to the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!

We've just announced the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!

There are 45 winners, each receiving a Band-in-a-Box 2024 UltraPAK! Read the official announcement to see if you've won.

Our User Showcase Forum receives more than 50 posts per day, with people sharing their Band-in-a-Box songs and providing feedback for other songs posted.

Thank you to everyone who has contributed!

Video: Volume Automation in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows®

We've created a video to help you learn more about the Volume Automation options in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows.

Band-in-a-Box® 2024: Volume Automation

www.pgmusic.com/manuals/bbw2024full/chapter11.htm#volume-automation

Video: Audio Input Monitoring with Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows®

We've created this short video to explain Audio Input Monitoring within Band-in-a-Box® 2024, and included some tips & troubleshooting details too!

Band-in-a-Box® 2024: Audio Input Monitoring

3:17: Tips
5:10: Troubleshooting

www.pgmusic.com/manuals/bbw2024full/chapter11.htm#audio-input-monitoring

Video: Enhanced Melodists in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows®!

We've enhanced the Melodists feature included in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows!

Access the Melodist feature by pressing F7 in the program to open the new MultiPicker Library and locate the [Melodist] tab.

You can now generate a melody on any track in the program - very handy! Plus, you select how much of the melody you want generated - specify a range, or apply it to the whole track.

See the Melodist in action with our video, Band-in-a-Box® 2024: The Melodist Window.

Learn even more about the enhancements to the Melodist feature in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/manuals/bbw2024upgrade/chapter3.htm#enhanced-melodist

Band-in-a-Box® 2024 DAW Plugin Version 6: New Features Specifically for Reaper®

New with the DAW Plugin Version 6.0, released with Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows: the Reaper® Panel!

This new panel offers built-in specific support for the Reaper® DAW API allowing direct transfer of Band-in-a-Box® files to/from Reaper® tracks!

When you run the Plugin from Reaper®, there is a panel to set the following options:
-BB Track(s) to send: This allows you to select the Plugin tracks that will be sent Reaper.
-Destination Reaper Track: This lets you select the destination Reaper track to receive media content from the Plugin.
-At Bar: You can select a bar in Reaper where the Plugin tracks should be placed.
-Start Below Selected Track: This allows you to place the Plugin tracks below the destination Reaper track.
-Overwrite Reaper Track: You can overwrite previous content on the destination Reaper track.
-Move to Project Folder: With this option, you can move the Plugin tracks to the Reaper project folder.
-Send Reaper Instructions Enable this option to send the Reaper Instructions instead of rendering audio tracks, which is faster.
-Render Audio & Instructions: Enable this option to generate audio files and the Reaper instructions.
-Send Tracks After Generating: This allows the Plugin to automatically send tracks to Reaper after generating.
-Send Audio for MIDI Track: Enable this option to send rendered audio for MIDI tracks.
-Send RealCharts with Audio: If this option is enabled, Enable this option to send RealCharts with audio.

Check out this video highlighting the new Reaper®-specific features: Band-in-a-Box® DAW Plugin Version 6: New Features Specifically for Reaper®

Band-in-a-Box® 2024 DAW Plugin Version 6: New Features Video

The new Band-in-a-Box VST DAW Plugin Verion 6 adds over 20 new features!

Watch the new features video to learn more: Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2024 - DAW Plugin Version 6 New Features

We also list these new features at www.pgmusic.com/bbwin.plugin.htm.

Forum Statistics
Forums66
Topics81,391
Posts732,462
Members38,441
Most Online2,537
Jan 19th, 2020
Newest Members
Ernest J, ingridguerci94, Izzy, BenChaz, Csofi
38,440 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
MarioD 195
Al-David 124
DC Ron 113
dcuny 87
rsdean 83
Today's Birthdays
CeeDee, SethMould
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5