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I have purchased BIAB 2009 for Mac and have upgraded to 2009 Build 8. Discovered that shots and chord holds do not work correctly with RealTracks and RealDrums - confirmed with tech support. This is a major disappointment and has prevented me from converting my previously created songs to RealTracks. I play out live using tracks created with BIAB and would LOVE to convert, but that would mess up many, many of my endings and arrangements.

Anyone out there figured out a smooth workaround for this? Will PG Music have a fix or workaround for this in the future? If not, I'll have to re-do many of my arrangements or simply waste my upgrade money.

Thanks for any replies!

Mike

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Depends on what you mean by a smooth workaround? There has been much discussion on this topic. A search of the forum should give you plenty of suggestions. There is also some stuff in the FAQ section.

I've worked around the problem by using a combination of Midi and Real. Where you want a hold or shot, program the Melody or Soloist track to contain the sounds you want. I mute the Realxxx at that point and let the Midi do it's thing. Most of my arrangements are just Bass and Drums so the programming is easy - but still a nuisance. Using those tracks, you can program 16 different channels to your desire.

I suspect that since there has been so much complaining about this that it will be addressed. Another major gripe is the two bar endings. I hope in the near future, we won't have to complain about these anymore.

Rachael

p.s. You may get more responses by posting this in the BIAB forum

Last edited by Rachael; 09/03/09 11:58 AM.
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I've been concerned, as well, about the endings in the BIAB styles. Some work out OK, but many are lacking when playing live. The audience looks at you like something is amiss. Of course, I come from a long association with arranger keyboards, where you have very professional-sounding intros and endings. However, at present, I prefer BIAB for live gigging for a variety of reasons. If they could give us more effective holds at the end of tunes, that would be super. But, what the heck is a "shot"?

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You're lucky the audience even notices anything. My audiences, mostly cocktail parties, do not seem to care but I certainly do when something does not sound right.

I have begun Freezing my arrangements before gigs so I won't have any of those surprises.

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Quote:

...Of course, I come from a long association with arranger keyboards, where you have very professional-sounding intros and endings.




I do wish that BIAB could give us the kind of Endings available on the highend Arranger keyboards, too. Choice of up to 4 different Endings available on-the-fly with a single button push, each one of top quality.


Quote:

However, at present, I prefer BIAB for live gigging for a variety of reasons. If they could give us more effective holds at the end of tunes, that would be super. But, what the heck is a "shot"?




A "Shot" is a common term for having all instruments of the rhythm section play the chord as a single 8th or sometimes 16th note, usually at the beginning of a beat, instead of either holding the chord or playing the rhythm pattern of the chord or riff that has been established. Not usually associated with Endings, though when used sparingly can work on certain Endings. As with a lot of these kind of musical terms, the origin of the word most likely came from the colloquialisms of jazz and session players.


--Mac

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I'm currently creating a lot of drumtracks for existing songs. I try to find the drumstyles that are most similar (at least the "feel") to the original. For the endings I do a lot of experimenting with rests, shots and changing the number of counts in the last bars and even changing the (sub) styles for the endings. This often gives a suprisingly nice result.
Also the solution Rachael uses seems like a good way to go.

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Rachael- Thanks for your response. I've gone thru the BIAB forums and found very little on this topic. Wasn't much to be found in the FAQs, either. Ah well.

Like you (and probably MANY others) I'm awaiting a fix from the good folks at PG Music. I still think this is a great product, but haven't gotten around to changing my arrangements as I was hoping for some nice and easy way... In the meantime, I'll likely do what you suggest using midi tracks to "stand in."

Mike

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J. Larry-

Thanks for your response.

Before taking my BIAB tracks on the road, I record them, one track at a time, into Logic where I can individually EQ, compress and do whatever nasty things I want to to them. This also allows me to "freeze" my arrangements. I then mix down to Apple Lossless files, import them to iTunes and on over to the iPod they go for taking to gigs. I'm using a Korg X5DR synth which does a pretty nice job and has a pretty believable upright bass. Drums not nearly as nice as the RealDrums, so want to convert as much of my arrangements as I can.

BTW, a "shot" is not only a colloquialism, but an actual BIAB term. This from the manual:

Shots
You can make certain instruments play a “shot” where the chord is played and then a rest follows. For example, the song “Rock Around The Clock” has a shot on beat 1 followed by a rest for 2 bars.

Mike

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Well, of course it is a term used in BIAB. Was referring to where that term came from...

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Of course. Altho I always thought the term was derived from drumming, e.g. rim shot.

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Mike,

Check out:

http://www.pgmusic.com/techfaq17.htm#23

Also, if you search the Forums for endings or holds you should get quite a few hits. Make sure you use the Search Forums button in the top left of the middle of the screen and not the one at the top right. The top right is very limited in it's time search.

Rachael

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Quote:

Of course. Altho I always thought the term was derived from drumming, e.g. rim shot.




It may well have.

Or, it could have been an actual gunshot, too. Sidney Bechet notwithstanding. <g>

(For those not in the know, Sidney Bechet once got thrown out of France for shooting a fellow musician in an argument over a chord change... )


--Mac

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Yes, the BB endings are sometimes quite awkward, with most instruments ending on the first beat of the second bar of the ending, but the drums continuing to play until the end of the bar! It even does it sometimes if I put in something specific like Dm...d - shouldn't that tell BB to have all instruments except drums hold the chord? Or am I misunderstanding the logic?

I agree with a previous poster who says we need professional-quality endings, and I've posted a couple of thoughts on the wishlist board. Namely, "hold & noodle" endings that bands typically do- everybody hits the last chord and holds it, and the drums and/or other instruments noodle around on it for a few seconds before hitting a final "stinger", to use march terminology. Or even just plain, clean "hold and fade" endings would be great. These awkward endings have to go.

Another problem - using the Conductor to move around in the song is totally hosed most of the time and unusable. But that may be getting off-topic.

To get around these problems, I've been playing with the idea of exporting all the .wav files from each BB song and importing them into Ableton Live's Arrangement View, where I can tweak the endings and then set Locator points to easily and reliably skip around in the song or loop sections. The problem is, this transfer & tweak procedure takes TIME. But unless PG Music fixes the problems with the Conductor soon, I'm going to have to start the process of transferring all my BB songs to Ableton Live, for gig use.

--Doug


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Quote:

Quote:

Of course. Altho I always thought the term was derived from drumming, e.g. rim shot.




It may well have.

Or, it could have been an actual gunshot, too. Sidney Bechet notwithstanding. <g>

(For those not in the know, Sidney Bechet once got thrown out of France for shooting a fellow musician in an argument over a chord change... )


--Mac




Really? (Raised eyebrow in a quizical but sardonic way)


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Citaat:

Really? (Raised eyebrow in a quizical but sardonic way)




Bechet had experience playing in traveling shows even before he left New Orleans at the age of twenty. Never long content in one place, he alternated using Chicago, New York, and Europe as his base of operations. Bechet was jailed [2] in Paris, France when a female[3] passerby was wounded during a shootout; after serving jail time, Bechet was deported. The most common version of the story, as related in Ken Burns jazz documentary, reports that the initial shootout started when another musician/producer told Bechet that he was playing the wrong chord and Bechet then challenged the man to a duel; critics[citation needed] assert, however, that Bechet was essentially ambushed by a musician with whom he did not get along.

(copy/pasted from Wikipedia)

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Quote:


To get around these problems, I've been playing with the idea of exporting all the .wav files from each BB song and importing them into Ableton Live's Arrangement View, where I can tweak the endings and then set Locator points to easily and reliably skip around in the song or loop sections. The problem is, this transfer & tweak procedure takes TIME. But unless PG Music fixes the problems with the Conductor soon, I'm going to have to start the process of transferring all my BB songs to Ableton Live, for gig use.

--Doug




Yeah, that's the trouble... As posted previously, I shoot the individual tracks over to Logic and remix. VERY time consuming, but hey... Ya gotta do what ya gotta do. This method also allows me to record additional instruments and backing vocals that I do track by track or with the Digitech Vocalist.

Thanks to everyone for your replies,

Mike

PS - I play thru a Fishman Solo Amp that dropped out on me twice today at my outdoor gig from what I believe to be a thermal overload. Great way to play out, but I'm hoping Fishman will provide me a good answer to this problem!

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I just purchased BB 2009.5 Ultrapak and yes I was quite surprised by the weak and messy endings of the Realtracks. Here I've got this nice Realtracks jazz guitar, bass, and drums going and the ending is a disaster. I sent an email to tech support and they said 'add an extra bar to the 2-bar ending, and place a '.' after the chord. It needs work. Standing by....

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From the ending of Planet of the Apes..."You may not like what you find"

Search the forums. Plenty of suggestions and workarounds.

Rachael

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After using BIAB for many years, the best endings are the ones you write yourself. You shouldn't depend on the software to do everything for you. Later, Ray


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Well, it seems way out of place to be able to create an entire composition literally with one mouseclick, such as we can using the Melodist, but then have to spend manhours or even man days trying to create a stupid ending that works for the thing...

Today's Autoaccompaniment Keyboards are currently blowing BIAB out of the water with Endings, selectable on the fly whenever you want to End the song, typically offering several different variations at a single button push. They are great sounding Endings, too.

I want BIAB to be able to End a song with the same kind of "session cat" abilities it shows in the rest of the arena, I want her to be able to do what Jerry Reed used to get out of his road band -- "Get me outta this one with style, boys!..." -- and always get a GREAT ending.

--Mac

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