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#129255 - 09/18/11 06:25 AM [Styles and RealTracks Wishlist] Multitrack drums
Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 86
Loc: south wales UK
pikeyh Offline
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Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 86
Loc: south wales UK
I know this has been brought up before but would anybody else like to see the inclusion of multitrack drums, after all the real tracks and real drums are so much smaller in size now.I for one would like the option to be able to eq and mix the kick and snare a little more.... thoughts anybody. thanks Ade.


Edited by pikeyh (09/18/11 06:26 AM)
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#129256 - 12/25/11 12:39 PM [Styles and RealTracks Wishlist] Re: Multitrack drums [Re: pikeyh]
Registered: 02/05/11
Posts: 64
Brian K Offline
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Posts: 64
Yes, of course that would be great but in order to do that PG would have to completely revamp the program. The drums getting split to isolated tracks would require adding that many tracks to BIAB....highly doubt there would be any ROI for PG music on that endeavor. I would think that such a project would require a sizable up front investment and also increase the cost of the program dramatically.I think it's important to view BIAB as a creative tool for writers and a way to have viable band tracks to play with for performers who work without a full band. If we are seeking to produce market quality finished recordings with a four to six hundred dollar program don't you think that's a bit disconnected from the real world?

Why not just put your BIAB tracks into a good DAW and build your own supplemental drum tracks with a drum program? Or just put bass drum and snare on two tracks ....then you could just mix accordingly and get the real drum track tweaked quite nicely. I haven't tried this yet but can't see why there could be any problem getting it all in sync. You could even just play these two drums in real time manually and record it that way...no sync issues.

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#129257 - 12/25/11 06:02 PM [Styles and RealTracks Wishlist] Re: Multitrack drums [Re: Brian K]
Registered: 01/03/06
Posts: 2050
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
filkertom Offline
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I have in the past used two separate RD tracks, panned a little off from each other, to make a huge sounding drum set.

You also could, pretty easily, use MIDI drums to supplement the RD, and it's much easier to split those off into separate tracks -- most of the major drum instruments (Addictive Drums, BFD, EZ Drummer, Steven Slate, JamStix) can assign each kit piece to its own track.
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#129258 - 12/26/11 09:15 AM [Styles and RealTracks Wishlist] Re: Multitrack drums [Re: filkertom]
Registered: 02/05/11
Posts: 64
Brian K Offline
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Registered: 02/05/11
Posts: 64
Yes Tom. I did that using cubase and with some eq.(parametric) it's pretty good. I like your midi idea. Am not set up for midi and don't yet understand how to use it. Need to look into it. What I, personally, would like to see in BIAB is more and better sax, b3,(there's a good track in there but when recorded there was a bad tube either in the B3 or the Leslie and it's highly audible) fiddle, bluegrass lead guitar, rock and blues lead electric (not priority) and piano. The new John Jarvis and Paul Franklin tracks are great...(program needs more accurate pedal steel backing tracks and fiddle badly)more of that quality level would be great. The drum thing is pretty easy to work with compared to these issues in my opinion and the real drum tracks are quite well played. Some half time would be very nice.

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#129259 - 12/27/11 10:20 PM [Styles and RealTracks Wishlist] Re: Multitrack drums [Re: Brian K]
Registered: 02/05/11
Posts: 64
Brian K Offline
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Registered: 02/05/11
Posts: 64
Actually half time in 4 is,from what I have found,completely lacking. Since this groove has been prevalent for some thirty years I am curious as to why it is not available in the program.Am I missing something in my exploration?

Peter?


Edited by Brian K (12/27/11 10:23 PM)

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#129260 - 12/28/11 09:21 AM [Styles and RealTracks Wishlist] Re: Multitrack drums [Re: Brian K]
Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 86
Loc: south wales UK
pikeyh Offline
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Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 86
Loc: south wales UK
Hi Brian,(If we are seeking to produce market quality finished recordings with a four to six hundred dollar program don't you think that's a bit disconnected from the real world?)..Oh no! then thats all the major daws out the window, what will we all do now?
I know where you are coming from, i just think, and i know i am not the only one (as this has been mentioned before quite a few times) that it would be a great addition to the prog as the drums are already well recorded, just to have a bit of separate control...thanks Ade.


Edited by pikeyh (12/28/11 01:50 PM)
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#129261 - 12/28/11 09:30 PM [Styles and RealTracks Wishlist] Re: Multitrack drums [Re: pikeyh]
Registered: 02/05/11
Posts: 64
Brian K Offline
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Registered: 02/05/11
Posts: 64
Ade,

A Daw is just a virtual digital mixing board. They have evolved to an amazing level and can produce the highest level results....even inexpensive home studio DAWS.

My comment was not directed to Daws.They will deal most effectively with whatever is put into them. After all...all the major studios use DAWS now...the days of the hard wired mixing console are long gone. The point is what is being put into them? Live musicians!Through ten thousand dollar microphones followed by all kinds of stuff!!

My comment was directed toward the world of computer based music >generation<. Before BIAB there was only midi and it just sounds phony to a real musician...because it is!No matter what you do to it it's still mechanical sounding...if you're into nuwave automatron techno it works for you. If you are a really good old school "real" rock/country/blues/R&B player it mostly leaves you cold. PG Music is the first and only entity to date to produce software containing programmable segmented recordings of actual players.My point is that this program is very inexpensive and as such should be not expected to do more than it was designed (and priced) to do (and does very darn well btw!)in the same way that a stock Toyota Camry doesn't get on the track with a Shelby Mustang.

I'm sure PG could expand the program ad infinitum taking it far beyond its present capabilities.After all...they developed "real track" technology. Who knows how far it could be expanded? Nobody even knows how they do it!

My point is this:

To do so would require a huge capitol investment for higher level musicians (most of whom would demand massive fees), more diverse idiomatic selection more geared to the real world of pop music and, hence, the dumping of the majority of renamed sameness now in the program. Recording and programming costs would be tremendous and the result could be "Band in a Box for Pros" or something like that. So who would buy it? And how many would be sold? It would have to cost...oh...wild guess...4-5 K maybe? Who knows? Would you invest in that? I sure wouldn't!

I love the program for what it is. An idiomatically limited writing tool designed to be stronger in jazz styles than in pop styles.(Yes, I personally find that disappointing but only because I'm a pop guy...so what? Who cares? So I make my own program? Don't think so) All it needs is some improvements such as making the Pedal steel and fiddle backing (especially ballads)tracks actually follow the chords you program, (It just sounds so much better when everybody plays the same changes at the same time)some really true-to-the-world-of-pop-music piano, sax, some more B3 choices, some less busy,less overplayed harmonica,some horn sections would be awesome and probably not that hard to get done, bluegrass lead guitar by a really hot bluegrass guitarist who hits all the notes,some more articulate rock lead guitar,some acoustic rhythm tracks without open strings played between the chord changes on the upbeat, and some half time styles so everything doesn't sound exactly like everything else with another name because an instrument has been left out or substituted with something else on the same basic track to enhance the content image.

So what do we expect for a few hundred bucks? The Nashville A team on a computer? Stevie Ray Vaughn's band? The Allman Brothers? (Must admit...I was dumb enough to! LOL)

I say let's be patient and give them time....they're adding better stuff as fast as they are going to do so....check out those John Jarvis piano tracks if you're into that style...I sure am! They are really good!

it's a great program...it doesn't crash....it works consistently, they have the greatest tech support you could ask for and there's allot of pretty cool stuff in it that you can use to work out some cool song sketches and even more if you're clever and resourceful once you sort through all the redundant "styles". You can mix them with each other sometimes and throw in some midi tracks etc.(Some of those are pretty darn good mixed with real tracks) It takes ALLOT of time for most non techies just to figure this thing out to the point where you can format something on it and there's allot of help on this forum.The creative part is listening to the styles and picking one you can edit later by changing the tracks around. Yeah it would be nice to have more style diversity of actually pop-relevant styles but who makes that call?

My point is it isn't intended that we sit home and make hit records ready for release on it. That is something that simply will never happen. At best maybe we can write a good song,get it to pre-demo status in BB and take it to a good demo studio...one listen and they'll have it...the thing even prints out charts! I think that's super cool.

Just have fun with it...it's a creative toy....but then what is a guitar? A cure for cancer? I think we musicians tend to be taken and take ourselves way too seriously sometimes. I know that has been a condition that has taken me a lifetime to work out of. Music shmusic...whatevah! Like Peter says..."have fun!".

Rock on! Sorry for the rant.

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#129262 - 01/03/12 08:59 AM [Styles and RealTracks Wishlist] Re: Multitrack drums [Re: Brian K]
Registered: 09/28/07
Posts: 3903
Loc: Kennesaw (Atlanta) GA
Ryszard Offline
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Amazing how much energy has been put into explaining why the OP can't have what he is asking for. Amazing both in the sense of how much BIAB has incorporated that was "impossible" at some point, 50 or so new features at a time, and because this is, after all, a Wish List.. This is where the dreams become real! C'mon, guys, ac CEN tu ate the POS i tive.
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#129263 - 01/06/12 02:19 AM [Styles and RealTracks Wishlist] Re: Multitrack drums [Re: Ryszard]
Registered: 09/27/10
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Loc: Sacramento, California
dcuny Offline
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I'm not sure that multitrack RealTracks are outside the realm of possibility. I suspect that the main thing preventing them from being implemented is a low "bang for your buck" for PG Music, compared with other projects.

One issue - the drums aren't just mixed on a per-instrument basis, but they're "mastered" via some final effects. So if you got the stems of the drums, you'd lose the polish of the final mix.

This was circumvented with the DI guitar tracks by offering the AmpliTube CS VST.

Maybe PG will offer a mastering plugin with 2013 that could be used with drum multitracks!
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#129264 - 01/06/12 08:19 AM [Styles and RealTracks Wishlist] Re: Multitrack drums [Re: dcuny]
Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 86
Loc: south wales UK
pikeyh Offline
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Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 86
Loc: south wales UK
Hi Guys,I think multitrack realdrums would take it to the next level,here's the thing, very rare i use a full track of realracks, the reason is simple,if i cut copy and paste the regions i want into my daw i can fool everybody i have asked into thinking these are real musicians playing on the track (i know they are,but you get what i mean right, not generated) if i let the real tracks "play through" i as well as others detect something not quite right (timing issues, obscure chords generated etc)this was brought up by myself about a year ago regarding bass timing and poo-pood by some(look for this yourself if you have a decent daw that lets you scroll right in, look at where the kick/snare sits to the grid look at where the bass notes etc are on the grid, you will see they are not quite there... now audio quantise these to about 70-90% using your weapon of choice ie....cubase,studio one,sonar ect and see/listen to the difference) i always quantise the bass,drums and some instruments to about 70-90% for tightness but retaining realism,we have realdrums/tracks that are tight and groove and get results that fool all my friends and musicians. i know that multitrack drums would compliment this for me and i cant see it being a major expense as the drums would have had been multitracked at the recording process (as long as pg still have the files) this i would say would be a great addition and a feature that i would love to see in the prog. just think..make the song and there we have it a full set of multitracked drums in seconds, just waiting for some dynamics and eq, add dry realtracks use your favourite vst effects,edit them,quantise the tracks just enough, add some live guit,keys and vox ....bingo there we are at the next level... hey! good rant also...thanks Ade.
btw indie folk rock pop genre...


Edited by pikeyh (01/06/12 08:30 AM)
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#129265 - 01/09/12 11:32 AM [Styles and RealTracks Wishlist] Re: Multitrack drums [Re: pikeyh]
Registered: 01/08/11
Posts: 2770
Tommyc Offline
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Registered: 01/08/11
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That's the only thing some studios that buy tracks from me say they wish I would do is multitrack drums . I use to do this quite easily with midi ,but they didn't like the sound of midi based drums even when they used their own equipment to make midi sounds (except Rap Drums,obligatory groan from old fart).

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#129266 - 01/12/12 09:21 AM [Styles and RealTracks Wishlist] Re: Multitrack drums [Re: Tommyc]
Registered: 09/28/07
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Ryszard Offline
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Quote:

. . . (except Rap Drums,obligatory groan from old fart).




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#129267 - 01/17/12 12:48 PM [Styles and RealTracks Wishlist] Re: Multitrack drums [Re: Ryszard]
Registered: 08/08/06
Posts: 4170
Loc: California
Robh Offline
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Registered: 08/08/06
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Multitrack drums would be great for sure, until then i generate a midi drum track, do some processing on it, and run it through jamstix as an 8 output track. I have a few that sound so live and real it is silly.
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#129268 - 01/28/12 06:47 PM [Styles and RealTracks Wishlist] Re: Multitrack drums [Re: Robh]
Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 1827
solidrock Offline
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Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 1827
It would be great with this as an option because some might just want the stereo drums.
If we had "RealCharts" for the drums with the velocity etc..in the midi file we can then
use Ni Battery or other drum samplers etc..
or even a PG drum sampler library to customize our drums.
We would not have use Drumtracker etc.. each time to customize our drums.

Same with the RealCharts for the instruments if they had the Bends, Slides etc.. in the midi files
we could use them for other sample instruments to play parts in the same style as say a RT guitar is.
At the moment we have a Blue (B) in the notes but no Bend in the midi file.

Bob..

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#129269 - 06/06/12 08:26 PM [Styles and RealTracks Wishlist] Re: Multitrack drums [Re: solidrock]
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jcspro40 Offline
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IF the performances had matching MIDI drum files created after the "final draft" it would be super simple to re-create it in multi-track format as long as the Samples of the drums used IN the track where available.

For a few months I went down the create a track - export - re-creat the drum track in Addictive Drums/ EZDrummer, and Session Drummer, but it never sounded "right"....having the .wav drum track mixed in with the .wma tracks sounded too dis-jointed unless I either heavily EQ'd the drums, or converted them to .wma so the sonic would match better.


Edited by jcspro40 (06/07/12 03:14 PM)
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#129270 - 06/08/12 01:57 PM [Styles and RealTracks Wishlist] Re: Multitrack drums [Re: jcspro40]
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Pat Marr Offline
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the separation of good sounding drums into individual tracks is best handled with the combination od MIDI drums and a good drum package like BFD2. With this combination you'd have nearly infinite capability.

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#227811 - 12/12/13 07:59 PM [Styles and RealTracks Wishlist] Re: Multitrack drums [Re: Pat Marr]
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solidrock Offline
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So will BFD2 work fully in RB ?

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#375500 - 11/21/16 03:48 PM [Styles and RealTracks Wishlist] Re: Multitrack drums [Re: pikeyh]
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Pipeline Offline
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+1 I used some TexMex drums the other day but the scrapper was too loud.
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