PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Songwriting Writing Songs

How do you guys go about writting songs. I have a very limited knowledge of chord theory, and can't figure out what chords whould go good with a meoldy. A lot of you seem to be able to shell out a song every day.

You'll probably need to up your game on chord theory and lyric creation with a bit of study. There are tons of songwriting and chord structure books out there. Author Robin Frederick has a fairly comprehensive group of books on the subject. Check her out on Amazon.com or FB:

Robin Frederick

Wow... this is a huge topic. But for starters.....

Having a basic knowledge of music theory is useful. Stuff like this: Knowing that in a given key... lets use the key of C major..... C is the root or also known as the 1 (ONE). A very basic song would normally have a chord set that can be used easily. In C, you can also use the 4 chord or F, and the 5 chord G, all using the scale of C major. So with 3 chords....C, F & G, you can write a simple song.

As you work with this you will just "feel" where the chord are going to be and what they are. Knowing that you only have 3 to choose from makes the process a bit easier.

As you do this, and get better, you will notice that there are generally patterns they follow.

Knowing the theory, 1,4,5 for example.... you can then take that same pattern and apply it to any key.

Theory is a vast and extremely deep subject. Like so many interesting subjects, you need to build a good basic foundation to really understand and appreciate the things that come later at the deeper levels. I'd suggest a basic beginners theory book for starters. And as a writer, you really don't need to have a thorough knowledge of theory to write songs.

Knowing the scales, major and minor, and the relation between the 1,4,5 progression that is used in so many blues and rock songs, as well as knowing what other chords can go well in the world of 1,4,5...such as using the 6 minor, is a good place to start your understanding.

Start by listening to songs that you like and try deconstructing them. Reverse engineer them. See how the writer put them together and use that as a guide to building your own originals.

All this is well and good, but a good song doesn't come from the head and a good understanding of music theory, it comes from the heart and having a basic understanding of music theory simply helps you to get it from the heart to the audible form for others to enjoy.

To add to Herb, I posted some lessons and tips on this already in the Beginner's Forum. You may want to book mark Beginner's Forum.

The first link below will take you to Gary Ewer's site. His entire collection of books is about 35 bucks, but worth it if you want to learn chord progressions. He also has many free lessons on his website.

In the second link, I explain the basics of the pop chord progression.

Last, you should just go to style picker and open up a bunch of demos and study the chord progressions. After a while you will get it.

But, by the various sources I have mentioned, you have to master what:

I (C) ii (dm or dm7) iii (em or em7) IV (F) V (G) vi (am or am7) and VIIdim (Bdim) and I (C--back to root)---in the key of C as the example here---mean in every key, and how they relate to songwriting.

There are no shortcuts.

Secrets of Songwriting with Gary Ewer

http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=380528#Post380528


Chord Entry Lesson #1

http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=378483#Post378483

Yes... good points David.

Also,,,, besides getting a basic music theory book, get a few on the art of songwriting. There are thousands of songwriting books on the market.

I have this one (among others) Six steps to songwriting success by Jason Blume. It's a good book on the art of crafting a song and some about the business as well... It covers song structure, lyrics and melody. Practically any book by someone who has successfully written songs and explains how they do it, would be a good addition to your library.

Get some education, but don't allow that educational process to get in the way of actually writing songs. Remember, don't write from the head..... write from the heart.

you may find helpful info from these links
songwriting tips and techniques

I honestly think the simplest way is going to hooktheory.com.

You check check out how thousands of songs are constructed withOUT knowing theory. You can simply look for how songs you like "look" and see patterns...even if it's just by color.

It also allows you to plug in chords from songs you like, and since you don't know what those may be, chances are some songs you like are already done. Plug those in, play with the timing a bit. Use some of the same notes (it actually allows you to stay within a key automatically) and have some fun!

You will start by making music. To me that has been fundamental in learning. My kids were writing songs before they know what they were doing. Out of doing, they were more excited to learn.

This can have you writing a song TODAY!

I hope that helps! That's not discounting the above advice. It's great advice. It can help explain what you are doing AND bring you in new directions as you learn.

From a slightly different POV. Figure out what you want to say. In broad terms, think about your own experiences that you might want to expose in lyrics, not necessary to be poetic or rhyming, that can come with time. Melody's can happen by the way words come together naturally. Look at the way the Beatles lyrics told a story.
BIAB is a great tool because you can try so many styles and chords, it's like a lego set for music,just dive in.
Wyndham

Good points Hear to Learn.

I lOVE Hook Theory.

But I can't fail to mention that Hook Theory is pretty big on:


I (C) ii (dm or dm7) iii (em or em7) IV (F) V (G) vi (am or am7) and VIIdim (Bdim) and I (C--back to root)---in the key of C as the example here---mean in every key, and how they relate to songwriting.





https://www.hooktheory.com/

All good advice. I'll try a few alternate approaches.

1. Find a collaborator. If you have good ideas for a melody and feel, and can imagine whether a certain place feels major or minor, someone else can do the music arrangement.

2. Use BIAB to generate a song from your melody.

Of course, if it was easy, everyone would do it. Songwriting is a craft that takes a serious commitment to learn.

We have so many great songwriters here. Perhaps we should add a dedicated songwriters forum. Tips n tricks questions discusssions etc.

Peter,

I think this is a very interesting idea, of course, being a member and regional coordinator of a large and well known songwriter's association (Herb is part of our group).

Personally, I love songwriting sites (Gary Ewer has a great one) but I am not sure I have ever run across a great songwriting forum that had real substance to it. So I am intrigued. And also curious.

One thing I have noticed though: the majority of people I run across who say they want to become better songwriters become almost angry when you gently suggest that they may want to learn more than a G, C and D chord or read a book on lyric writing. I.e., when you tell them that songwriting is hard, and requires study, they actually get mad at you. But I know that without a basic and growing knowledge of theory--baby steps mind you--you simply will never be able to advance in your skills or take full advantage of a tool like BIAB.

My own best education in songwriting comes from my daily study of the style demos in BIAB--and finding amazingly cool chord progressions I never would have thought of. But that is after I already know what a I, I maj7, ii, iiim7, vi is...and so forth. I know why those chord progressions I find in BIAB demos are so cool because I already know the basics. So I know when someone has "broken a rule"--but done it in an ingenious way.

Then there is melody. That happens two ways. One way is you are born a genius like Paul McCartney and you can whistle hit melodies in your car as you go around the roundabout. The second way is you learn how to play an instrument and spend countless hours fiddling with notes until you find something that is catchy.

So, I am extremely interested in this idea, and would be your most avid reader.

But I do wonder, sometimes, if people realize how hard songwriting is and how much work and study it takes to become good.

That might not be the case here on the BIAB forum because there are so many talented and hardworking people here, but out there in the wider world you will find a lot of people who simply do not want to put forth the effort.

Just a few random thoughts. I would like to hear what other folks have to say about this. It could be wonderful if people took it seriously.

Right on.

I snickered at the thought until I realized 90% of "successful" songs have cowriters. I've tried to write with others a few times, but never found someone that fits. Different ears and goals and stuff.

And, yes, David, that is an interesting tendency, to bristle at suggestions. I know I do. Unless I'm not too vested in the song yet. I KNOW there's a problem, or I cringe on a certain line, where I'm just validating that they hear a problem also. It happened recently; I asked a good writer friend for an opinion, thoughts were given; I was irritated as heck; and he was right (I realized a week later).

Yes, listening to new BIAB demos....man, my head swims with song ideas when I do that...

I get it....

I've co-written with just a couple of old band mates long ago but they asked for my input.
As it was...they'd agreed with my suggestions.

I'm not interested in co-writing for the very reasons you state above.
My music is not that complicated but I'm extremely particular about song subject, lyrics and lyrical phrasing.
(If I could just sing up to my satisfaction that would be cool)
I'll spend consecutive days making sure each line meets my satisfaction and avoiding vapid cliches.

So...co-writing, as a rule, would not work for me.

I should qualify that my songs and above approach to song writing has kept me a poor, common man and unknown song writing entity.

Carry on....a good weekend to all.

Andy,

Try the book below if you get stuck.



I think the idea could be good one if people shared resources they find useful in developing their craft.

If people start offering suggestions on written material: I see all Hell breaking loose. World War III.

Been there, done that, got the scars.

But as I said, try this for starters:

as a companion to the book dave referenced

Beatles Songwriting Academy

Islansoul. Do February album writing month. www.fawm.org
Jump in head and feet and write a song every two days for the month of February. Participate in the skirmishes and the forum and find collaborators. You will come out of the month with a very good start.

Wayne. EXACTLY! It's all me, its my experience, no one can understand it in my context. Or, it's all lies and BS, but, it's all MY lies and BS. No help needed, Thank you, but no. Please go away.

David. THANK YOU! I own a bunch of song/music books, as I'm sure you do also. I have a special shelf with the go-tos on it.

Yes, we all should do a thread on books!!!!

We should have a songwriters forum, as that would help me out so much. Guys, I do understand what chords are, and the basics of chord structure such as the I IV V used in pop rock, the 12 bar blues, and the II V I in jazz, but again when it comes to chord and melody, I somehow feel a bit lost.

My problem has never been writing songs, it's not losing them. I've probably written a thousand or more sure fire hits (in my mind) while driving in my car with inspiration coming from a rattle, constant humming rhythm or some other noise. Great hooks and lyric phrases have popped into my head only to mysteriously disappear an hour later when I'm home and try to recall what I knew to be such a great write.

I recall seeing in a documentary that one of the early Bee Gees disco monster hits came about as they began singing over the repetitive rhythm sound of their car crossing a bridge in Miami every day driving to the recording studio.

On one occasion, I woke during the night immediately after dreaming about a song and was able to record the complete song and lyrics, chord progression down. The song was recorded several years later on my band's 1975 album.

Nearly everyone I know sings aloud making up jingles and pieces of songs, changing lyrics to a popular song they're listening to on the radio. They just never try to write in a serious manner. They don't think they have the talent.

Charlie