A BIAB user named Floyd Jane directed me to this forum to seek input, feedback, advice, what-have-you, on the posted subject, "Mixing and panning", based on his response to my request for help concerning those two particular production elements as they are heard in my song, "How Do You Know (When Someone Loves You?)".
Here is the link to the webpage the song was posted onto:
I was not entirely satisfied with the mix I created that involved a vocal track and the following instruments: acoustic bass, drums, piano, slow strings, tremolo strings, and a steel guitar, all of them virtual instruments.
Simply put, I experienced some frustration attempting to get the instruments' volumes high enough without "clipping", or losing volume because of subsequent volume corrections I made. Panning seemed to complicate things because it seemed that steering the instruments right or left caused them to lose something -- body, or fullness, is the only way I could describe it -- so that, to my ears, ultimately, everything seemed to be clashing. What I mean is, I felt that none of the instruments were truly "balanced" in relation to the other.
Mr. Jane suggested that I indicate the DAW I used, which is Cakewalk Sonar. I'm grateful to him for his well-considered feedback, and I would be equally grateful to anyone who feels like pitching in their "two cents."
Thank you for reading this!
Most sincerely and respectfully,
"bluage"
"Music is what feelings sound like."-- borrowed from a Cakewalk Music Creator forum member, "Mamabear".
Comments like this are always personal so take with a grain of salt ..
FWIW, nice job. To me the main piano doing all the fills is too forward. It's busy; that alone will make it heard. Also I think you could cut some low end on the rhythm sound off to the side, which will allow you to boost them a tiny bit to accommodate and also free sonic space for the bass to let it be clearer and more defined.
Then Ozone it.
Make your sound your own! .. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Nice job creating the song tracks. It is a very interesting song to listen to. I do not have much music production experience but enjoy active listening. So my thoughts may provide more ideas than techniques.
I do not have any idea how you approached mixing the song but I would have approached the song as a mono mix. I would have worked on separating the tracks by arrangement and frequency. Arrangement by having different backing instruments silent while others perform fills so two instruments don't try to exist in the same aural space at the same time. Frequency by letting each instrument reside mostly within a frequency range then subtract frequencies outside the instrument range. Both tasks complement the other and minimize the potential for things to clash. Visualize all the instruments (including the vocalist) stacked one on top of the other; bass drum and bass on the bottom, cymbals at the top and everything else in between. When one instrument is removed from the pile (even for a few beats)replace it with another instrument.
A really good way to approach this is to set all tracks at 0dbFS and your main output at a comfortable listening level then pull all track faders down. Raise one fader until you can just barely hear the track. Set an equalizer for narrow frequency (high Q), high gain and sweep across the frequency band to identify the frequency range of what you heard and thus what frequency range is most important for that track. That frequency range belongs to that track! Reset the EQ to normal then start subtractive EQ to remove all the frequencies that are not important to the track. When you've removed as much frequencies as you can set the track volume level to 0dbFS. Repeat with the next track.
Once you've finished with all tracks, you should have a static mono mix with all track faders set at 0dbFS, none of the tracks should clash with the others and the overall volume level of the mix should be pleasing. Also realize getting to this point is most likely 90 - 95 percent of the work in mixing.
Now you can pan the tracks however you want and they should not clash! Use delay and effects to add interest. If you have a track panned 50 percent right then you can place an effect or delay using the same frequency space 50 percent left for interest. As you add effects you will need to watch your output volume level since the additional material will add gain.
It sounds to me like there's some white noise in there too. Like the noise floor is kinda high, or perhaps a bit of smooth distortion. Then, towards the end, I realized that it could have been the tremolo strings being low in the mix.
The mix sounded good to me on my speakers with the exception of the strings being a bit too loud in the middle section. I would have liked to hear the voice a bit crisper too. It sounded a bit too far back in the mix.
Regarding panning, I didn't listen on speaker that are wide apart or cans so I can't point out issues other than to say with jazz, I like to keep most things centered or no further than 20% panned but always have something else on the other side the same distance to balance the mix and give it a feeling of sonic space.
Not a "bad" mix, but a few tweeks would make it better.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.
The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
A really good way to approach this is to set all tracks at 0dbFS and your main output at a comfortable listening level then pull all track faders down. Raise one fader until you can just barely hear the track. Set an equalizer for narrow frequency (high Q), high gain and sweep across the frequency band to identify the frequency range of what you heard and thus what frequency range is most important for that track. That frequency range belongs to that track! Reset the EQ to normal then start subtractive EQ to remove all the frequencies that are not important to the track. When you've removed as much frequencies as you can set the track volume level to 0dbFS. Repeat with the next track.
Great tip and you've explained it so concisely, definitely saving this one to pass on!
Honestly, I believe "personal" comments are most welcome, to me at least, because I believe they reflect a listener's true involvement in what they heard, so the "grain of salt" should add some good seasoning!
As I've mentioned in all of my responses to the advice I've received as a result of my post, I am practically ignorant of most of the terms used, so I've got my work cut out for me. I'm not a technically-minded person when it comes to music, but I do understand how helpful it would be to learn more about it. It's probably no more difficult that studying music theory, which I've been concentrating almost exclusively for a long while.
If I ever post any more songs to any of the forums on BIAB, I'm going indicate what I've learned about music production so folks like you will know that I've taken your advice seriously.
"rharv", thank you, man, for your generous attention and feedback!
Sincerely,
"bluage"
"Music is what feelings sound like."-- borrowed from a Cakewalk Music Creator forum member, "Mamabear".
I agree with you that Mr. Fogle's tip is quite concise and "to the point." I've never used an equalizer before, but I figure that my DAW, Calkwalk Sonar, has one, or I hope it has one.
Thanks for citing Mr. Fogle's contribution!
Sincerely,
"bluage"
"Music is what feelings sound like."-- borrowed from a Cakewalk Music Creator forum member, "Mamabear".
I was inspired by the clarity of your advice/instructions in your response to my post. That was mostly because you mentioned faders, which are the only controls in my DAW that I've ever touched/used to mix tracks, and only to adjust their volume, so that's a good start.
I'll have to check and see if the "equalizer" you mentioned is included with my DAW, Cakewalk Sonar, but I am anxious to try this "sweeping" technique you explained so clearly.
You're good teacher, sir, and I should know, 'cause both of my parents were teachers, and of the kind that, when I came home from school and told them I didn't have any homework to do, they'd look down at me with one of those tight "gotcha!" grins, raise their eyebrows and respond, "Oh, re-e-eally? Well, partner, you're sure about to get some!"
I'm glad you enjoyed listening to the song. Thanks, teach'!
Sincerely,
"bluage"
Last edited by bluage; 01/31/1711:56 PM.
"Music is what feelings sound like."-- borrowed from a Cakewalk Music Creator forum member, "Mamabear".
You know, I always thought a "noise floor" was what I got from my neighbors living in the apartment beneath mine... jes' kiddin!
Seriously, though, I understood your observation on panning percentages since my DAW indicates those numbers graphically.
Regarding your perception of the vocal track sounding "a bit too far back in the mix," I received that track as a separate *.wav file from the vocalist, Ms. Courtney Grace, so I'll play with that and see what happens...
You mentioned "cans." Would it be correct for me assume that you were referring to a type of speaker?
I understand (I think) what you were describing when you used the term "white noise" in reference to the tremolo strings. Is that the same thing as "artifacts?" Regardless, it could have been the result of me time-stretching that track near the end to extend the amount of time it would take to fade it out to my satisfaction.
For someone as busy making music as your voluminous posts seem to indicate, I am humbled by the fact that you took the time out of your day/life/schedule to listen to the song and respond to my request for help. I mean that, "guitarhacker"! Straight, no chaser. Cross muh heart an' hope t' die. Well, maybe not just right this moment...
Thank you, sir!
Sincerely, respectfully, and whatever else would apply,
"bluage"
"Music is what feelings sound like."-- borrowed from a Cakewalk Music Creator forum member, "Mamabear".
You'll find many forum members here also use Sonar products and are members of Cakewalk's forum. If you've never checked out Cakewalk's forum you can by clicking on ++ THIS ++ link.
Every DAW has an equalizer. Most versions of Sonar includes a six band equalizer like the one below. An easy way to find it is to click on a track to select the track, look at the track inspector on the far left side of the screen and look for the EQ symbol near the top of the inspector. If you don't see anything that says EQ, click on the display at the bottom of the inspector and select EQ to turn on display of the EQ feature.
The photo below shows I am inspecting a kick track. I've changed the defaults to turn off bands 2 - 6. I've set band 1 for high gain (18 db) and a narrow Q (24). The more narrow the Q, the less frequencies get changed. I have the song playing, the kick track on solo and the track gain (volume) set low so I can barely hear it. When I move the band 1 circle from left to right I am sweeping the frequencies. When I reach the main frequency of the track, 154 Hz in this instance, the sound will get much louder.
The EQ has a help button which opens a file that explains each EQ function in great detail. Check out Sonar Help for tutorial articles, song projects and videos.
Regarding your perception of the vocal track sounding "a bit too far back in the mix," I received that track as a separate *.wav file from the vocalist, Ms. Courtney Grace, so I'll play with that and see what happens...
You mentioned "cans." Would it be correct for me assume that you were referring to a type of speaker?
I understand (I think) what you were describing when you used the term "white noise" in reference to the tremolo strings. Is that the same thing as "artifacts?" Regardless, it could have been the result of me time-stretching that track near the end to extend the amount of time it would take to fade it out to my satisfaction.
Lets hit the easy ones first: Cans are slang for headphones.
White noise is what you hear as static on the radio. In this case, it was very low in the mix. But like I said, it was probably caused by the tremolo string section and wasn't noise at all. I've had some weird things happen in my mixes through the years. When I hear something, I reset my timeline to just before that point and go through each track, one by one to see if I hear something in any of the tracks. Sometimes I find the glitch and sometimes I find nothing. When I come up empty handed, I start adding tracks one by one until the issue reappears. More than once, I have found the interaction of events in 2 tracks combined to cause what sounded like a glitch. The solution is simple.... simply use the volume envelope to pull one of those tracks down briefly to get past that glitch point. How this applies to your mix is to listen to that tremolo track closely and see if it is causing the issue..... assuming that you can hear the issue I spoke of and think it's a problem. Quite often when I point out things in songs the originator of said track/project replies that they either don't hear it or intended to make it that way, so I defer to your preferences on this call.
I have worked with a number of tracks sent by other folks. I had no control over how they were recorded. I applied the things I needed, to those tracks to get them sounding good and then put them in the mix.
The vocal to COME AND GO (on my music page) was sent from another studio and was recorded well. There's another song on my music page called IN A WORLD WITHOUT YOU. The lead vocal track to that song came to me as an MP3 file which was recorded in a home studio demo session. I was never able to get the wave so what you hear is the original MP3. I worked on it a bit with some of my audio tools because it had issues with noise and other things and had to go with what I had.
All that to say, you should be able to get practically any track to set well in a mix. It's a matter of getting the vocal track volume up if it was low and weak when you got it. Using some mild compression, and then normalizing the file will help in that regard if it was weak with low internal levels. When doing that, yo have to be careful because this is where noise floor comes into play. When you compress and normalize, you are raising ALL the things in the track including the noise at the very bottom. So while you get a stronger track, you might now have noise issues.... mic hiss, and other things that you don't want at audible levels. You can gate it or edit it but it's best to avoid it where possible. That's why it's always good to have solid, strong input levels from your audio sources. Signal to noise ratios matter, but with digital, you should be good under most circumstances. (that topic could be it's own thread)
Next is to get the volume in the mix set appropriately for the genre. Country, for example, tends to put vocals closer to the front as opposed to rock, where the vox may actually be quite far back and covered up to some degree by the instruments. Making the vocal fit into the mix naturally involves matching the reverb kind to the band. I often record all my tracks totally dry (exception is guitar) and applying the reverb in the master buss. That puts the same kind and level of verb on the entire mix. Nothing stands out like a band that has a wet reverb and the singer's vox is a small room dry. Levels and reverb are the largest factors in getting tracks to set properly. That doesn't mean EQ doesn't play a part, because it does, but not as critically as the first 2 do.
Hope that clarifies it a bit.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.
The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
You'll find many forum members here also use Sonar products and are members of Cakewalk's forum. If you've never checked out Cakewalk's forum you can by clicking on ++ THIS ++ link.
Every DAW has an equalizer. Most versions of Sonar includes a six band equalizer like the one below. An easy way to find it is to click on a track to select the track, look at the track inspector on the far left side of the screen and look for the EQ symbol near the top of the inspector. If you don't see anything that says EQ, click on the display at the bottom of the inspector and select EQ to turn on display of the EQ feature.
The photo below shows I am inspecting a kick track. I've changed the defaults to turn off bands 2 - 6. I've set band 1 for high gain (18 db) and a narrow Q (24). The more narrow the Q, the less frequencies get changed. I have the song playing, the kick track on solo and the track gain (volume) set low so I can barely hear it. When I move the band 1 circle from left to right I am sweeping the frequencies. When I reach the main frequency of the track, 154 Hz in this instance, the sound will get much louder.
The EQ has a help button which opens a file that explains each EQ function in great detail. Check out Sonar Help for tutorial articles, song projects and videos.
Jim, MEqualizer by Melda Production has an Analyzer silhouette that will show you right where that freq is without the sweep/listen technique. And the band width is adjustable with a drag bar. It's free and stable for me in Reaper. I also use Sonar's plugins in Reaper along with a bunch of others.
Jim, MEqualizer by Melda Production has an Analyzer silhouette that will show you right where that freq is without the sweep/listen technique. And the band width is adjustable with a drag bar. It's free and stable for me in Reaper. I also use Sonar's plugins in Reaper along with a bunch of others.
Thanks for sharing the information Tobias. Melda Production has an impressive lineup of both free and for sell effects. I am including a link to MEqualizer ++ HERE ++ for those that might want more information about the product.
I hope you (and the rest of the respondents) will forgive the delay in responding to you. I work two jobs that consume a great of time: managing rental properties (which is an on-call, 24/7 type of gig), and as a volunteer stage manager at a local ballet school.
Any old way, I'm going to follow-up with you on the things you mentioned that I have some kind of experience with and readily understand
First of all, thanks for explaining what "cans" are.
Next, your statement: "When you compress and normalize, you are raising ALL the things in the track including the noise at the very bottom. So while you get a stronger track, you might now have noise issues.... mic hiss, and other things that you don't want at audible levels."
That's very useful information! I suspect I've damaged many audio tracks in the past by using that function.
Next, "More than once, I have found the interaction of events in 2 tracks combined to cause what sounded like a glitch. The solution is simple.... simply use the volume envelope to pull one of those tracks down briefly to get past that glitch point."
Okay, that's pretty straightforward. Got it.
Up next: "Next is to get the volume in the mix set appropriately for the genre."
I suppose that within that suggestion you are including vocals as part of "the mix." I've never been present at a recording session, never been in a recording studio, even. In the song I posted the vocal was recorded by the singer. 99% percent of the time when I "mix" a song it has only virtual instrument tracks.
Nonetheless, your advice concerning genre considerations is sensible. If I think about what I've heard when listening to various kinds of music, I believe I could say that I've noticed in casual way the placement of vocals. Some seem closer, others less so; some are louder, others softer, dryer or wetter, and so on.
Finally, "Levels and reverb are the largest factors in getting tracks to set properly."
Hah! Those two functions are probably the only ones I've used with any frequency throughout my entire experience of composing and mixing songs.
Because of my stone-cold ignorance of some terms you use, such as "gate," "master buss," "normalize," "band," and more, I realized that I'd be wasting your time discussing them with you. So, over the weekend I went out to a used bookstore and picked up a copy of The Billboard Illustrated Home Recording Handbook. Paging through the index at the back of the book I saw entries for most of the above-mentioned terms. It's got a bunch of pictures in it relative to the concept(s) explored in each chapter, so it should be helpful.
"guitarhacker," I'm gonna rate you high as a teacher as well as a performing musician! Thank you, again, for your obvious committment to these forums.
Sincerely,
LOREN (a.k.a. "bluage")
"Music is what feelings sound like."-- borrowed from a Cakewalk Music Creator forum member, "Mamabear".
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