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Thanks Byron,
Hey AudioTrack & Gordon Scott, have you noted that the account has been closed as it has been assessed as spam? I hadn't and I agreed with your initial assessment that it probably was spam. My alarm bells rang with the same phrase yours did. I just gave a little more benefit of that doubt.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
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Late to this post ... and I guess, the spam.
But anyway, 'would a rose by any other name smell as sweet?'
Curmudgeon as I may be, I'm never going along with the hookah smoking caterpillar. Words mean what they mean as they were first meant. If you want to stop using the word 'Grandfather' and use 'legacy' instead, as the recent Stanford list of 'offensive' words suggests, that's your prerogative. I'm keepin' my Granpappy.
Last edited by DFT; 12/30/22 02:50 PM.
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… Words mean what they mean as they were first meant. … That is not at all true — and never was.
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… Words mean what they mean as they were first meant. … That is not at all true — and never was. Nope. If it were true, we'd all still be speaking Proto Indo-European.
Byron Dickens BIAB. CbB. Mixbus 32C 8 HP Envy. Intel core i7. 16GB RAM W10. Focusrite Scarlett 18i 20. Various instruments played with varying degrees of proficiency. https://soundcloud.com/athanorsoundlabs
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Meanings change with usage often for the worst but also for the better.
Etymology is fun but also a form of necrophilia if it's used to cling to a the rotting corpse of a word.
Grandfather has it's own problems:
a) grand (adj.)
late 14c., grant "large, big" (early 12c. in surnames), from Anglo-French graunt and directly from Old French grant, grand (10c., Modern French grand) "large, tall; grown-up; great, powerful, important; strict, severe; extensive; numerous," from Latin grandis "big, great; full, abundant," also "full-grown;" figuratively "strong, powerful, weighty, severe," of unknown origin.
In Vulgar Latin it supplanted magnus and continued in the Romanic languages. The connotations of "noble, sublime, lofty, dignified," etc., were in Latin. In English it developed a special sense of "imposing." Meaning "principal, chief, most important" (especially in titles) is from 1560s; that of "of very high or noble quality" is from 1712. As a general term of admiration, "magnificent, splendid," from 1816. Related: Grander; grandest.
Grand jury is late 15c. Grand piano from 1797. The grand tour of the principal sites of continental Europe, as part of a gentleman's education, is attested by that name from 1660s. The Grand Canyon of the Colorado River in western U.S. was so called by 1869, popularized by Maj. John Wesley Powell, scientific adventurer, who explored it; earlier it had been known as Big Canyon. For grand slam see slam (n.2).
Bringing PC into the discussion is conflation.
&
b) grandfather (n.)
early 15c., from grand- + father (n.), probably on analogy of French grand-père. Replaced grandsire and Old English ealdefæder. Grandfather clause originally (1899) referred to exemptions from post-Reconstruction voting restrictions (literacy, property tax) in the U.S. South for men whose forebears had had the right to vote before 1867 (thus allowing poor and illiterate whites to continue to vote). Grandfather clock is from 1894, originally grandfather's clock (1876), "a furniture dealer's name" [OED] from "My Grandfather's Clock," the 1876 song by Henry Clay Work that was enormously popular (and loathed) in late 1870s. It indicates that they were beginning to seem old-fashioned; they were previously known as tall case clocks or eight-day clocks.
Cheers
rayc
"What's so funny about peace, love & understanding?" - N.Lowe
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Grandfather has it's own problems:
Nearly every word in nearly every language (including emojis and emoticons) now has "problems". We're all going to the other place in an environmentally friendly mode of transport.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
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Grandfather has it's own problems:
Nearly every word in nearly every language (including emojis and emoticons) now has "problems". We're all going to the other place in an environmentally friendly mode of transport. I suspect the "problems" were built into the design. Etymology is one of the culprits as it exposes origins good & bad, recent and distant. I did an etymology session with my classes each week...looking into the week's spelling words. It was always illuminating, often amusing and occasionally shocking.
Cheers
rayc
"What's so funny about peace, love & understanding?" - N.Lowe
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Etymology is one of the culprits as it exposes origins good & bad, recent and distant.
I did an etymology session with my classes each week...looking into the week's spelling words. It was always illuminating, often amusing and occasionally shocking. Yeah, I like to study ants too. (Ducks and runs for cover)
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It was always illuminating, often amusing and occasionally shocking. And occasionally "how on Earth did we get here from there?"
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
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Yeah, I like to study ants too. (Ducks and runs for cover)
Children aged eight to twelve don't mind it at all in my experience. Weekly they'd each have to find the etymology, (they were given the links to online etymology dictionaries within their digital version of the work sent to them via their school email address. They could submit the work digitally or on paper. They also had pre school access to computers in the room if they had no gear or access at home), of three words they chose from their personal spelling list, (30 kids, 30 lists: no child required to waste time on words they already knew & no child to skip words they didn't know from previous "levels". Some kids had 30 words almost all of their own choosing - quite often new words from the novel we were currently studying - while another might have five because they struggled with literacy. Each list was private, each child mapped their own progress via pretest & test graphs on paper and in a personal spreadsheet that only the individual and I had access to), and then read the most interesting to the class. We'd talk about each one offered, the dark history, the modern variations, the slang, euphemisms (that was a particularly interesting aspect - in most parts of NSW public school students ask to "go to the toilet" rather than the bathroom - why hide what you mean?), etc. Etymology was, then, part of public speaking, discussion, exchange of ideas/perspectives, reading, linguistics, spelling, handwriting, typing/word processing, mathematics and technology use. Any that were disengaged and wanted to run for cover had their lists reviewed as lack of success was, more often than not, the reason for avoidance.
Last edited by rayc; 01/04/23 01:23 PM.
Cheers
rayc
"What's so funny about peace, love & understanding?" - N.Lowe
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… Words mean what they mean as they were first meant. … That is not at all true — and never was. It is entirely true - and always has been. That doesn't mean that the meaning of words don't/ can't change over time. It simply means that when uttered or written by the originator, the originator knew what they meant. So if you care to listen to lyrics or read a passage from something created years ago, you will only understand if you know the meaning of the word as it was meant ... not what it may or may not mean contemporarily.
Last edited by DFT; 01/04/23 08:07 AM.
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… Words mean what they mean as they were first meant. … That is not at all true — and never was. Nope. If it were true, we'd all still be speaking Proto Indo-European. Your confusing the evolution of language with the fact that at any point in time any word had specific meanings. It could have had more than one, but if there were not a significant number of like users it would be meaningless. If there were no anchor points of meaning we would all be uttering gibberish and you would be unable to disagree with me. 
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That's not what you said.
Byron Dickens BIAB. CbB. Mixbus 32C 8 HP Envy. Intel core i7. 16GB RAM W10. Focusrite Scarlett 18i 20. Various instruments played with varying degrees of proficiency. https://soundcloud.com/athanorsoundlabs
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That's not what you said. In fact that was exactly what I said. You are misconstruing "... first said ..." to include an additional meaning of immutable. There is, however, an additional important layer of meaning discussed in this thread to encompass considerations falling generally under the rubric of 'political correctness.' Irrespective of ones views in such debate, the 'cancellation' of a word in social discourse has nothing to do with the meaning of the word per se. It is simply that some would censor the word due to disaffection for that meaning ... even if that disaffection reflects a subjective interpretation as defined by the objectors. The options appear to be 'shut your mouth' or embrace the Tower of Babel, hoping something you said today doesn't turn out tomorrow to bite you in the donkey. The creation of new complexities in social life and technical knowledge in the vastly expanding world population constantly gives occasion to either borrow an old word for a new application or come up with a new word. Regardless, old words still carry their meanings despite evolving nuance and context.
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You did type "...Words mean what they mean as they were first meant..." without any caveats or clarification.
Your words meant what you meant but they didn't mean that to others who didn't know the context you were placing them in when your typed them.
That context isn't clear in your text.
Your explanation is good & reasonable but the problem with the written word, even when "emojified", is that is means what the reader reads.
Cheers
rayc
"What's so funny about peace, love & understanding?" - N.Lowe
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You did type "...Words mean what they mean as they were first meant..." without any caveats or clarification.
Your words meant what you meant but they didn't mean that to others who didn't know the context you were placing them in when your typed them.
That context isn't clear in your text.
Your explanation is good & reasonable but the problem with the written word, even when "emojified", is that is means what the reader reads. Yes, of course it is always as the reader understands it. And thank you for your acknowledgement that my 'explanation' is good and reasonable. But what about the context or clarification of those commenting that I was baldly wrong? Did they qualify their context ... or were they simply reacting to my other statement regarding the Standford's committee relegating 'grandfather' to naughty? In any case, no post would ever be finished were we all required to provide the entire context and clarification of our thoughts expressed by words to every reader's satisfaction. You have supplied some interesting etymology, and while no expert myself, I have some difficulties with your presentation with respect to how it relates to the meaning of words, as opposed to the origin. You first mention that p.i.m.p. has changed its meaning. But in doing so you replace a noun, 'a p.i.m.p.' with with a verb, 'to p.i.m.p' or gerund, 'p.i.m.p.ing.' When the morning fish wrap reports "authorities arrested J. Edgar Hoosier, a local p.i.m.p.," we don't think he was p....mping his new line of fashion eyeglasses, do we? Similarly with g.r.a.n.d.f.t.h.e.r (not sure what the censors are watching!), you provide the etymology of the word, but then you note a particular legal usage of the word, 'Grandfathered,' which means those enjoying certain extant rights/ privileges, are not subject to new legal regulation infringing upon pre-existing practice ... similar, but not equivalent, to prohibition of 'ex post facto' laws. What you present is a particular and peculiar usage which may or may not creep into common parlance. As far as I can understand, grandfather has always meant what it first meant in the English language, regardless of whether or not it has acquired other usage. So to return to the ex post facto cherry picking of canceling some words because somewhere in the past they were used in the service of discrimination or some ill deed real or imagined, is in my opinion the mental equivalent of the Taliban destroying the Bamyan Buddha statues. Finally, please kindly provide me an example of an English word that no longer means what it originally meant. I do acknowledge that in the '60s some said, "Wow, that's really bad!," when acknowledging something they admired, but we all still know what bad means.
Last edited by DFT; 01/04/23 05:46 PM.
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Sick, random, awesome, [*****], cool, silk and so on.
"p.i.m.p." now means to upgrade, aggrandize, to renovate and not, necessarily, in the garish "threads" of the late 60s and early 70s.
The Banyan statues were destroyed in the way religions historically seek to eliminate their rivals for purposes of retaining power, preventing dissent and through a lack of respect for art...even if/when the art is a device for proselytising and propaganda.
Your unwillingness to concede & your seeming desire to apply all manner of sophistry to justify yourself marks you as someone who doesn't alter opinion.
Enjoy.
Cheers
rayc
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snip ...
The Banyan statues were destroyed in the way religions historically seek to eliminate their rivals for purposes of retaining power, preventing dissent and through a lack of respect for art...even if/when the art is a device for proselytising and propaganda.
Your unwillingness to concede & your seeming desire to apply all manner of sophistry to justify yourself marks you as someone who doesn't alter opinion.
...snip
I think you meant to say 'p.i.m.p. now also means to say ...,' as it unquestionably continues to mean what it has meant in common parlance. Ahh ... concede is it? Of course, no one ever attempted to destroy ideas or language as means of eliminating their ideological rivals for the purposes of retaining power, preventing dissent and through a lack of respect for intellectual discourse. Or use 'sophisticated' name calling in such pursuit? Yes, my opinions are well established, as yours seem to be. Your resort to accusing me of "all manner of sophistry" in critiquing what in my opinion is your confounding of etymology and meaning suggests a simple avoiding of supporting your thought. Again, please, anyone please give me one, just one example of an English word that no longer means what it originally meant. As a final note on the ludicrous Stanford Project and the 1872 'grandfather,' please note that a despicable book, 'Mein Kampf,' both in the original language and when translated is filled with pronouns, articles and all manner of vocabulary and linguistic construction. Perhaps the Stanford Project should recommend us excising all found there as well? Grandfather is not an example of a name falling out of usage. It is a concerted effort to remove a word in common and continuing usage because some hyper-sensitives have discovered an obscure usage deemed objectionable from their political viewpoint. The project's 'legacy' will be the folly and scorn it so richly deserves. I've had my say and thoroughly enjoyed it. But now I've better things to do. That is, unless someone finds that word that no longer means what it meant. Peace
Last edited by DFT; 01/05/23 09:48 AM.
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That's not what you said. In fact that was exactly what I said. You are misconstruing "... first said ..." to include an additional meaning of immutable. What you said, exactly, was "Words mean what they mean as they were first meant," [emphasis mine] quite clearly implying that the meaning thereof does not and can not change. Had you at the time further related that comment to looking at a text (in context of this discussion, a song lyric) through the lens of Historical Criticism, then you would likely have not garnered the responses you received but you did not. Only your subsequent protestations suggest this is the case. Finally, please kindly provide me an example of an English word that no longer means what it originally meant. A cursory search will reveal numerous examples.
Byron Dickens BIAB. CbB. Mixbus 32C 8 HP Envy. Intel core i7. 16GB RAM W10. Focusrite Scarlett 18i 20. Various instruments played with varying degrees of proficiency. https://soundcloud.com/athanorsoundlabs
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Thank you, Byron.
I will concede that that is exactly what I wrote and that the implication you point up is reasonable.
However, an implication is not an assertion.
You can read what I wrote with that implication that the meaning of a word never changes. In my view it is the usage, not the meaning that changes. Which, means that new usage adds additional or nuanced meaning to the original word.
You can also read what I wrote as asserting that when a speaker or writer first spoke or wrote a word it had an intended meaning that is unchangeable ... regardless of whether it was correctly perceived by the listener or reader. Even were the speaker or writer to later change their opinion of or use of a word and engage in different usage, that would not change the meaning of the prior use.
Obviously no one, myself included, enjoys being simply told 'you're wrong.' Had someone asked, 'are you saying meaning and usage of a word never change,' this probably would have gone in a different direction.
The history of usage of a word from its initial meaning is interesting and necessary to what to me is more important, what the speaker meant at the time he used it.
And, so, I'll never be singing 'My legacy's clock was too large for the shelf ...'
Last edited by DFT; 01/05/23 10:30 AM.
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