I think we're arguing writing/composing a song versus the resulting sound.
As I just recently heard, does Dwight Yoakam get songwriting credit for Prince's Purple Rain, because his, errr, effects or instrumentation were different?
John
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What do you call it when studio technician tweak the process and come up with a sound that could be said to carry the day? I think Les Paul and Mary Ford's sound was the same audio track offset a microsecond -- presto, echo. Bob Marley and Peter Tosh on the wah pedal. The Beatles tech sretting up this long hallway in the building and getting it just right. Or even just a way of playing, no effects, like Louis Armstrong or Eric Clpton. All this stuff going on. We mortals find out about it when we open our first Garage Band.
Production/engineering. It can certainly be creative but it's not composing or writing. The producer or engineer is getting paid for his/her work under a producer's contract and nothing they do or create is copyright-able by them, as a result.
I disagree that it is not composing or writing. If an engineer or producer comes up with the signature riff or signature sound or some other significant creative contribution they have most certainly contributed to the writing of the song!
Of course, I understand that the music business world decided long ago that that contribution does not count as a writing credit. But that is just arbitrary. I have always felt songwriting credits should be more fairly defined and shared among the participants. If The Beatles had not spent so much time together perfecting their craft as a group I would venture to guess they might not have achieved what they did. Likewise had they not had major influence from people like Epstein and Martin they almost certainly would have accomplished much less.
When I am king everyone who contributes gets partial credit!
So according to your theory... the guy who brings the coffee to the coffee machine and makes the coffee in the studio while the writers are there composing should be given writing credits too? How far do you want to take that theory that anyone who had any sort of influence in the process, no matter how small, should get writing credits?
It's ludicrous to claim someone who inserted an effect in a recorded track should get writing credits. Very few producers or engineers will come up with a "signature riff". That is usually the domain of the musicians. If the musician is a hired studio gun, guess what????? The guy has signed that away to the artist when he signed the work for hire contract. If however, it is a signature riff such as the sax lick on Baker Street, or the guitar lick on In-a-godda-da-vida, for example.... and the creator of said lick is a studio musician.... the artist owns it. The same rules apply. That is NOT, writing the song. As a studio musician, you know that anything you create is the property of the artist who's paying you.
The music world decided that such contributions are not considered "writing the song" because licks and fills and such are not necessary parts of the song. Even a so called signature lick isn't necessary for the song. The verse, chorus and lyrics are.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.
The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
So according to your theory... the guy who brings the coffee to the coffee machine and makes the coffee in the studio while the writers are there composing should be given writing credits too?
Look up George Martin and you prolly won't find "coffee bringer" on his bio!
Originally Posted By: Guitarhacker
If the musician is a hired studio gun, guess what????? The guy has signed that away to the artist when he signed the work for hire contract. If however, it is a signature riff such as the sax lick on Baker Street, or the guitar lick on In-a-godda-da-vida, for example.... and the creator of said lick is a studio musician.... the artist owns it. The same rules apply. That is NOT, writing the song. As a studio musician, you know that anything you create is the property of the artist who's paying you.
Obviously that is how the music business works...I acknowledged as much! But just because it is legal does not mean it is right! I think anyone who would use a significant creative contribution and not share a credit is a POS!
Originally Posted By: Guitarhacker
The music world decided that such contributions are not considered "writing the song" because licks and fills and such are not necessary parts of the song. Even a so called signature lick isn't necessary for the song. The verse, chorus and lyrics are.
Baloney! Where would Smoke on the Water be without its opening riff? Where would Day Tripper be without its opening? What about In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida? And thousands more songs! Of course those melodic hooks are every bit as important as anything written in words! And probably even more important because I know tons of songs that were hits when most people had no idea what the singer was mumbling!
So according to your theory... the guy who brings the coffee to the coffee machine and makes the coffee in the studio while the writers are there composing should be given writing credits too?
Look up George Martin and you prolly won't find "coffee bringer" on his bio!
Originally Posted By: Guitarhacker
If the musician is a hired studio gun, guess what????? The guy has signed that away to the artist when he signed the work for hire contract. If however, it is a signature riff such as the sax lick on Baker Street, or the guitar lick on In-a-godda-da-vida, for example.... and the creator of said lick is a studio musician.... the artist owns it. The same rules apply. That is NOT, writing the song. As a studio musician, you know that anything you create is the property of the artist who's paying you.
Obviously that is how the music business works...I acknowledged as much! But just because it is legal does not mean it is right! I think anyone who would use a significant creative contribution and not share a credit is a POS!
Originally Posted By: Guitarhacker
The music world decided that such contributions are not considered "writing the song" because licks and fills and such are not necessary parts of the song. Even a so called signature lick isn't necessary for the song. The verse, chorus and lyrics are.
Baloney! Where would Smoke on the Water be without its opening riff? Where would Day Tripper be without its opening? What about In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida? And thousands more songs! Of course those melodic hooks are every bit as important as anything written in words! And probably even more important because I know tons of songs that were hits when most people had no idea what the singer was mumbling!
Now you are confusing 2 things.
Riffs created by musicians in the band .......and everything else.
Oh yes, absolutely, the signature riff/lick for the songs mentioned.... are an integral part of the song no doubt. You hear the first few notes of Smoke on the water and immediately know the song. But you're missing a few things here....
All 3 examples were created by band members. These licks are not the product of an engineer with effects, nor were they the product of a hired studio player.
Next... I could do a cover of the song Smoke on the Water, that you would recognize that doesn't contain the signature riff. I could start it with chugging eighth G chords.... That riff, while we all identify the song immediately with it, isn't necessary to the functioning of the song as a song. Grab an acoustic guitar and play the song.... you don't need the signature riff..... start playing a chord and jump into the first verse. We've all heard covers of songs that sounded nothing like the original and we didn't recognize the song until the verse & lyrics started.
So no, signature licks and fills and solos are not necessarily part of the song (from a songwriting POV) especially when they are created by someone not the artist/band. The majority of signature licks are created by the band/artist and are copyrighted material. The non-artist hired guns have signed that copyright away in their contract for hire which means they can not claim ownership of that lick, only that they are playing it and created it..... but not ownership.
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 05/02/1702:23 AM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.
The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
So according to your theory... the guy who brings the coffee to the coffee machine and makes the coffee in the studio while the writers are there composing should be given writing credits too?
Look up George Martin and you prolly won't find "coffee bringer" on his bio!
Originally Posted By: Guitarhacker
If the musician is a hired studio gun, guess what????? The guy has signed that away to the artist when he signed the work for hire contract. If however, it is a signature riff such as the sax lick on Baker Street, or the guitar lick on In-a-godda-da-vida, for example.... and the creator of said lick is a studio musician.... the artist owns it. The same rules apply. That is NOT, writing the song. As a studio musician, you know that anything you create is the property of the artist who's paying you.
Obviously that is how the music business works...I acknowledged as much! But just because it is legal does not mean it is right! I think anyone who would use a significant creative contribution and not share a credit is a POS!
Originally Posted By: Guitarhacker
The music world decided that such contributions are not considered "writing the song" because licks and fills and such are not necessary parts of the song. Even a so called signature lick isn't necessary for the song. The verse, chorus and lyrics are.
Baloney! Where would Smoke on the Water be without its opening riff? Where would Day Tripper be without its opening? What about In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida? And thousands more songs! Of course those melodic hooks are every bit as important as anything written in words! And probably even more important because I know tons of songs that were hits when most people had no idea what the singer was mumbling!
Now you are confusing 2 things.
Riffs created by musicians in the band .......and everything else.
Oh yes, absolutely, the signature riff/lick for the songs mentioned.... are an integral part of the song no doubt. You hear the first few notes of Smoke on the water and immediately know the song. But you're missing a few things here....
All 3 examples were created by band members. These licks are not the product of an engineer with effects, nor were they the product of a hired studio player.
Next... I could do a cover of the song Smoke on the Water, that you would recognize that doesn't contain the signature riff. I could start it with chugging eighth G chords.... That riff, while we all identify the song immediately with it, isn't necessary to the functioning of the song as a song. Grab an acoustic guitar and play the song.... you don't need the signature riff..... start playing a chord and jump into the first verse. We've all heard covers of songs that sounded nothing like the original and we didn't recognize the song until the verse & lyrics started.
So no, signature licks and fills and solos are not necessarily part of the song (from a songwriting POV) especially when they are created by someone not the artist/band. The majority of signature licks are created by the band/artist and are copyrighted material. The non-artist hired guns have signed that copyright away in their contract for hire which means they can not claim ownership of that lick, only that they are playing it and created it..... but not ownership.
Yeah, I know how the music biz works! It is all about the money most of the time. If a writer can cut another writer out of the credits they know they can pocket more. Likewise, a big artist may get a songwriting credit even when they did not write the song. And then there is the whole history of guys like Jimmy Page stealing music and only giving credit/money when sued later on.
It is kind of a sleazy business in many ways! My point is it should NOT be like that! Everyone who makes a significant contribution to the song should get a credit! And yes, a signature riff is part of the song. If it can be copyrighted, or deemed an infringement were it to be reused, it is obviously part of the song!
JohnJohnJohn Quote: "Everyone who makes a significant contribution to the song should get a credit!"
I found this to be an interesting statement when a person may make an 'accidental' significant contribution to writing a song.
For instance, we know that PGMusic waives any and all rights of contribution of songs written with BIAB/RB and their other products. But, what of the person here on the forum who may provide you specific instructions how to achieve a particular BIAB technique, chord progression or the exact BIAB style that may be critical to your song? A person who, without their significant contribution to you, you could not have written the song as you imagined, intended and completed.
What is the significant contribution difference between a guitar player developing a riff and a forum member providing a style and technique allowing you to create a riff with BIAB?
Yeah, I know how the music biz works! It is all about the money ALL of the time. If a writer can cut another writer out of the credits they know they can pocket more. Likewise, a big artist may get a songwriting credit even when they did not write the song. And then there is the whole history of guys like Jimmy Page stealing music and only giving credit/money when sued later on.
It is kind of a sleazy business in many ways! My point is it should NOT be like that! Everyone who makes a significant contribution to the song should get a credit! And yes, a signature riff is part of the song. If it can be copyrighted, or deemed an infringement were it to be reused, it is obviously part of the song!
There.... I fixed it for you with bold above^^^^^^^^^
One of the trends has been for an artist to demand writing credits to get a song on their new project CD. Even though they aren't really a writer of the song..... so..as a writer, do you say "no, you're not getting a writer's credit and share" or do you include the artist as a co-writer to get on the CD? Money talks and everything else walks.... Of course you include the writer..... the other option is your song never gets cut and YOU don't make any money. Let's see.... keep driving that $500 beater car or pay cash for a new Lexus???? decisions, decisions.
Your point or opinion is what it is and while it's noble to think this is how the world should be, the simple fact of the matter is, it never will be the way you envision it. Yes, the music business is a rough tough place and from all appearances, it always has been and always will be. CCR, T.O.P and many other bands played grueling schedules to packed houses and made peanuts while the managers got rich. They made bad business deals when they signed. Happens all the time in every business. You just hear about it more in the music biz due to the nature of the biz.
There are many bands and artists who have listed the contributing studio musicians on the jackets giving them credit for playing in a particular song on the CD. I used to read the album covers to see who played what on which song. So according to your comment....
Quote:
Everyone who makes a significant contribution to the song should get a credit!
Let's see..... they got their name on the jacket as the player on a song.... and .... they got at least union scale and possibly more for their time in the studio..... does that qualify as getting their due credit and pay? And.... there's a pretty good chance they were hired to go on the tour to promote the new album as well. So, not only do they get paid for studio time and get their name on the record/CD, they also get the fun and glory and get paid again to play that song live on tour.
As far as sleazy..... well that's in the eyes of the beholder. Personally, I've always thought the music business was a cool business to be in. It's competitive as hell in many cases and you need to get things in writing, but aside from the fact that we play music as the product of our business, it's really no different or less "sleazy" than any other kind of business.
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 05/03/1702:26 AM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.
The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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