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#429178 - 09/08/17 01:36 PM [RealBand] Render to WAV
Registered: 07/13/17
Posts: 106
Loc: West Virginia
Warren Keller Offline
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Registered: 07/13/17
Posts: 106
Loc: West Virginia
Hi guys, would you say that it's par for the course that a rendered WAV will sound subtly different from the master SEQ in RealBand? It's frustrating, things sound precisely the way I want them mixed in RB, but the Merge Audio and DXI tracks to Stereo WAV option seems to offer no controls, and although it's a very high-quality rendering, subtle differences in instrument volumes and equalization occur. I'm assuming that's one reason we might want to master the WAV. Thanks!
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Warren A. Keller- Woodwindist, Writer, Singer

"I have my ship and all her flags are a-flyin'
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#429180 - 09/08/17 02:10 PM [RealBand] Re: Render to WAV [Re: Warren Keller]
Registered: 02/05/15
Posts: 2987
Pipeline Offline
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Try and record the stereo output of your sound device to a new track in RealBand and see if that's better.
Set the Audio Input to the stereo output.
You can use ASIO4ALL also.


Attachments
RB_Stereo_Rec.jpg

RB_Stereo_Rec_Track.jpg


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#429190 - 09/08/17 03:33 PM [RealBand] Re: Render to WAV [Re: Warren Keller]
Registered: 07/13/17
Posts: 106
Loc: West Virginia
Warren Keller Offline
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Loc: West Virginia
Thanks for your reply Pipeline. Could you give me a little more detail on what I need to do to record all tracks and effects to a single stereo track? Somthing in Options/Preferences/Audio? I'm assuming then you would render that stereo track only to WAV and compare the difference?
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Warren A. Keller- Woodwindist, Writer, Singer

"I have my ship and all her flags are a-flyin'
She is all that I have left and music is her name"

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#429196 - 09/08/17 04:30 PM [RealBand] Re: Render to WAV [Re: Warren Keller]
Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 19057
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
rharv Offline
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I think Pipeline is saying that you can assign the sound going out of RB (your live mix) to be recorded as the input signal on other tracks. Arm 2 new MONO tracks or a stereo track, set your recording input to be what you are hearing via your sound card mixer (or maybe even the Windows mixer on some systems). So what you hear is what you record.

It will take longer than rendering (it has to actually 'play' the song through and record it back at the same time).
But you should end up with a stereo recording containing what you hear during playback (vs Rendering) on the newly recorded tracks..

Personally I haven't ever noticed this issue before. RB renders what it plays pretty effectively, unless you are listening to 24 bit track recordings and rendering to a 16 bit wav or something .. though I doubt that is the issue.
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#429198 - 09/08/17 04:56 PM [RealBand] Re: Render to WAV [Re: rharv]
Registered: 02/05/15
Posts: 2987
Pipeline Offline
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Yes, what rharv said.
The easiest way without installing Voicemeeter or VB Audio Virtual Cable, is use the onboard sound, as the onboard sound should have Stereo Out/Mix just enable it by right click speaker icon > Recording Devices > and right click > Show Disabled Devices > enable Stereo Mix/Out.
Then set it in the MME Audio Drivers as the Input.


Attachments
Win_Rec_Device.jpg

RB_MME_Device.jpg


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#429254 - 09/09/17 08:55 AM [RealBand] Re: Render to WAV [Re: Warren Keller]
Registered: 07/13/17
Posts: 106
Loc: West Virginia
Warren Keller Offline
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Registered: 07/13/17
Posts: 106
Loc: West Virginia
Thank so much Pipeline, RHARV, and Jim (privately). I didn't need to go this far. I made some system changes yesterday, suggested by Focusrite with regard to optimizing audio performance. I can only assume this has made the difference, because today, not only my new WAV, but also the WAV from yesterday DO sound identical to the RB mix. Prior, there was a subtle difference in the WAV played in WMP or Audacity. It wasn't softer/louder, or lower-quality but literally different- high-quality, but not the same exact balance of instruments. I know that sounds bizarre, but I trust my ears.

Now, there has been weirdness in RB audio preferences dropping ASIO and reverting to MME, so this could be involved. I turn the Audiophile drive off when not in use, and it may be dropping this setting. As I've also experienced other fussiness (Access Violations, tracks dropping out, etc.), I wonder if it would be better to have RB on my hard drive rather than the external- thoughts? Fingers crossed till next time, and thanks again!
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Warren A. Keller- Woodwindist, Writer, Singer

"I have my ship and all her flags are a-flyin'
She is all that I have left and music is her name"

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#429258 - 09/09/17 10:38 AM [RealBand] Re: Render to WAV [Re: Warren Keller]
Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 6695
Loc: Redondo Beach, Ca.
jazzmammal Offline
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Unless you have a really old system with a small hard drive, install the programs themselves ie Biab and RB, onto your system drive. The RT/RD's are fine on your external. I tested this some months ago because I had installed everything onto my SSD system drive but was running out of space so I deleted all the RT/RD's and ran them from the external. I timed it both ways and there was zero difference in rendering times.

As you just found out, digital audio is very tricky and COMPLETELY counterintuitive. What seems like a logical move isn't. Access violations, crashes, freezes etc will ultimately trace back so some kind of config issue either within RB itself or like your case your external interface.

Here's just one example. I had JUST written in the forum that I never get crashes with RB. Then I thought I had a crash immediately after I wrote that. Great, smooth move Sherlock. Turns out I had the Gain Change window open when I put the focus on the forum to check something. When I clicked on RB in the taskbar, that window was gone and RB was frozen. I remembered to look at the taskbar again and sure enough that Gain Change window had planted itself there. For some reason if you simply put your mouse focus on something else occasionally those floating windows will become unattached from the program itself and until you close that window it looks like RB had crashed.

That actually is a perfect example of what I had said. RB doesn't crash but it will do weird stuff like that sometimes. And in case someone thinks that's unique to RB go read the Cubase, Sonar, ProTools, PreSonus and anybody else's DAW forums. They all have weird crap like that because digital audio is extremely complex and tricky to work with.

Bob
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#429264 - 09/09/17 01:47 PM [RealBand] Re: Render to WAV [Re: Warren Keller]
Registered: 07/13/17
Posts: 106
Loc: West Virginia
Warren Keller Offline
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Registered: 07/13/17
Posts: 106
Loc: West Virginia
Thank you Bob. I'm interpreting this to mean that we might avoid some extra induced weirdness if the programs are directly on the hard drive and not on the external? I also mix and render to an internal SSD drive as I don't want to write anything to the external Audiophile drive- that just doesn't seem advisable to me. Even with my high-quality system, I can imagine that problems could arise using multiple drives. Thanks again Bob.
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Warren A. Keller- Woodwindist, Writer, Singer

"I have my ship and all her flags are a-flyin'
She is all that I have left and music is her name"

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#429296 - 09/09/17 09:46 PM [RealBand] Re: Render to WAV [Re: Warren Keller]
Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 19057
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
rharv Offline
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Quote:
.. I can imagine that problems could arise using multiple drives ..


Personally I think using multiple drives is beneficial .. but I wouldn't record (write) to a USB drive. Too much bandwidth needed especially if multi-tracking. 'Reading' Realtracks and Realdrums from the external USB works fine, but writing is a different story.

RB/PT lets you select your Temp Audio Directory. This is where incoming (recorded) data gets temporarily written to. Once you save the file (not 'keep take', but actually save the file) it gets saved to the drive that holds the file, but during a working session this Temp Audio Directory can get a lot of use.
I use a separate internal hard drive for the Temp Audio Directory.

That said, I use another separate internal hard drive to read the RT/RD's.
My drive layout is shown below.
The BB_RB drive holds my current RT/RDs. (kept up to date)
The audio_SysBackup drive holds my Temp Audio Directory
BiaB, RB and PT all run from C:

The other drives are system backups and general storage
I keep the PGMusic external drives as separate backups (not connected) so they don't show in the image below.


Attachments
rharvDrives.jpg


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#429318 - 09/10/17 06:16 AM [RealBand] Re: Render to WAV [Re: Warren Keller]
Registered: 07/13/17
Posts: 106
Loc: West Virginia
Warren Keller Offline
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Registered: 07/13/17
Posts: 106
Loc: West Virginia
RHARV, do you recommend as does Bob, that I install the programs themselves on the main internal C drive? Thanks! And I do currently write to an internal SSD.
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Warren A. Keller- Woodwindist, Writer, Singer

"I have my ship and all her flags are a-flyin'
She is all that I have left and music is her name"

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#429319 - 09/10/17 06:36 AM [RealBand] Re: Render to WAV [Re: Warren Keller]
Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 19057
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
rharv Offline
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Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
Yes, as I stated above; BiaB, RB and PT all run from C:
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#429320 - 09/10/17 06:56 AM [RealBand] Re: Render to WAV [Re: Warren Keller]
Registered: 07/13/17
Posts: 106
Loc: West Virginia
Warren Keller Offline
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Registered: 07/13/17
Posts: 106
Loc: West Virginia
Duh, missed that- sorry! Thanks guys, I will install to the C drive.
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Warren A. Keller- Woodwindist, Writer, Singer

"I have my ship and all her flags are a-flyin'
She is all that I have left and music is her name"

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#429481 - 09/11/17 04:41 PM [RealBand] Re: Render to WAV [Re: Warren Keller]
Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 19057
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
rharv Offline
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Let us know how it goes.
Like I said, for me;
The applications run on C:
RTs and RDs get loaded from a separate internal drive, and temp audio directory is using yet a different internal drive.
That's why your "don't use separate drives" comment confused me. I get the best performance when I DO use separate drives .. as described .. but then again I frequently record 6-8 tracks at a time, so some users may never notice the difference.
I can only tell you what I know now, from personal experience.
YMMV

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#480063 - 06/30/18 08:13 AM [RealBand] Re: Render to WAV [Re: Warren Keller]
Registered: 07/13/17
Posts: 106
Loc: West Virginia
Warren Keller Offline
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Registered: 07/13/17
Posts: 106
Loc: West Virginia
Thanks for your responses guys but I need to revisit this issue with you. I'm considering a different DAW but would like to make sure my issues are not based on what I'm doing in RB, but rather some limitation in the render to WAV.

My final mix WAVs via 'Merge Audio and DXi Tracks to Stereo Wave file' do not sound identical to the SEQ within RB. I'm talking when critically listening on good studio reference headphones. I took Kent's good advice and matched the output levels between RB and the WMP and Audacity players. This made for less disparity between the SEQ and WAV, especially with regard to instrument volumes and EQ. What I continue to hear however is disparity in the plug in effects. The PG Echo Chorus plugin's effect settings may sound exactly as I want them to in RB, but are very different in the WAV.

I doubt it would make a difference, but I want you to know that I chain Reverb to 1, Chorus (if any) to 2, and Echo (if any) to 3 in the individual channel strips, with the Ten Band EQ placed in the FX section of individual channels.

Let's say I have a beautiful, obvious, long trailing echo following a guitar solo. It's barely audible in the WAV, maybe it seems lower, maybe the delay time seems shorter. At any rate, it's not nearly as noticeable/present as I intend.

I'd value your opinions. My mixes are, I think very good https://soundcloud.com/spontaneousgroovincombustion. But I'm getting very frustrated by my inability to PRECISELY output the sounds I've worked hard for in RealBand. Is it my workflow, RealBand's Render, or the nature of mixing multitracks to two track stereo? Thanks very much!


Edited by Warren Keller (06/30/18 12:24 PM)
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Warren A. Keller- Woodwindist, Writer, Singer

"I have my ship and all her flags are a-flyin'
She is all that I have left and music is her name"

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#480067 - 06/30/18 08:59 AM [RealBand] Re: Render to WAV [Re: Warren Keller]
Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 19057
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
rharv Offline
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First, are you using 'Merge Audio and DXi Tracks to Stereo Wave file' to accomplish this?

Second:
Quote:
I chain Reverb to 1, Chorus (if any) to 2, and Echo (if any) to 3 in the individual channel strips, with the Ten Band EQ placed in the FX section of individual channels.


Can you clarify above?
"individual channel strips"
"the FX section of individual channels"

Aren't the above two items the same things? Or did you mean 1, 2 & 3 AUX strips?

I can't say I've noticed this, but I don't use the echo/chorus from PG much. There are many other nice ones out there and the PG FX haven't been touched in many years; they work, but they are very old/dated.
Maybe test using a different plugin. Kjaerhus Audio Classic Series is a free and stable (in my experience) option for delay and chorus. Compressor is nice too. Found here -
https://www.acoustica.com/plugins/vst-directx.htm

If I were you though, I might just turn up the send for the guitar and re-render the mix to get the end result I'm after. That's what counts.


Edited by rharv (06/30/18 09:18 AM)
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#480085 - 06/30/18 12:41 PM [RealBand] Re: Render to WAV [Re: Warren Keller]
Registered: 07/13/17
Posts: 106
Loc: West Virginia
Warren Keller Offline
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Registered: 07/13/17
Posts: 106
Loc: West Virginia
Hi rharv, Thanks for your rapid response! Yes, I use 'Merge Audio and DXi Tracks to Stereo Wave file' and have changed my last post to include that as my original post does.

On your second question, yes, the verb, chorus, and echo plugins are residing in the 1, 2, & 3 AUX strips respectively. So, the send knobs in an instrument's individual channel strip are chained reverb in 1, chorus in 2, echo in 3. On the guitar, sax, and flute solos, I'm using all three.

When I referred to the FX section of individual channels, that's the blue FX button on each channel that let's you put EQ on each channel individually, rather than sending to an AUX bus.

I have a nice outside plugin called Sanford Delay that yields the same result, just not a mirror of the SEQ within RB, so I don't think it's the PG plugins themselves. I've tried what you suggested, simply pumping up the sends for the affected instruments, but I don't like the result. In fact, I don't like the overall effects combination on some of the instruments. Again, it's not faithful to the SEQ.

Super frustrated. I put so much time into getting the SEQs to sound just so. Then I can't move on because I'm not satisfied with the mix. I know that people often master their mixes. Can I assume that it's part of what I'm experiencing, that a stereo 2-track mix can't perfectly match a multi-track project, or is there some issue here on my end? I have to believe that if the SEQ sounds right, it should render a bit more accurately. Thanks to you and the forum members for your time!
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Warren A. Keller- Woodwindist, Writer, Singer

"I have my ship and all her flags are a-flyin'
She is all that I have left and music is her name"

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#480108 - 06/30/18 02:30 PM [RealBand] Re: Render to WAV [Re: Warren Keller]
Registered: 05/13/03
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silvertones Offline
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If you are creating your *.seq in other than 44.1 x16 and render to 44.1x16 *.wav it would sound different.
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#480110 - 06/30/18 02:36 PM [RealBand] Re: Render to WAV [Re: Warren Keller]
Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 19057
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
rharv Offline
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OK, you said you think you eliminated the plugins as an issue ..
Quote:
I don't think it's the PG plugins themselves.

Can we eliminate the player next?
What do you use to open the resulting mix down wav file?
Have you tried opening the mixed wav in RB to see what happens there?

/otherwise stumped for now
edit:
Silvertones has a good point above


Edited by rharv (06/30/18 02:39 PM)
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#480137 - 06/30/18 06:25 PM [RealBand] Re: Render to WAV [Re: Warren Keller]
Registered: 07/13/17
Posts: 106
Loc: West Virginia
Warren Keller Offline
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Registered: 07/13/17
Posts: 106
Loc: West Virginia
Appreciate the help guys. Silvertones, confirming my RB settings are 16-bit 44.1 w/ ASIO drivers. I thought to up to 24/48 but I see that even Audiophile WAVs are 16-bit 44.1 and RB works best here.

rharv, I listen in Windows Media Player. No EQ or addt'l settings on there, and as mentioned i.e. Kent's advice, it's now set to a volume of 70 that pretty well matches the RB output volume. Same for Audacity, the WAV sounds the same as in WMP. Matching volumes between RB and a player definitely helped.

Great thinking rharv! Opening the WAV back in RB, the overall volume is appreciably lower and the effects continue to sound appreciably different from the SEQ. I now think that it's not a question of RB's audio/summation engine being faulty, but I don't think it handles Plugins, even its own PGs as well as it could. I definitely hear disparity especially where delay is used. The character of the effect changes. I wish I could figure out how to record the mix within RB to Windows or some other utility so that I could demo to others the differences between the SEQ and the WAV.

I also tried upping the WAV output from 128 to 192 and I heard (saw in the waveform) different disparities- odd peaks on specific parts. RB seems to like 128 better.

Thanks guys.



Edited by Warren Keller (07/03/18 11:01 AM)
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Warren A. Keller- Woodwindist, Writer, Singer

"I have my ship and all her flags are a-flyin'
She is all that I have left and music is her name"

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#482241 - 07/17/18 04:50 PM [RealBand] Re: Render to WAV [Re: Warren Keller]
Registered: 07/13/17
Posts: 106
Loc: West Virginia
Warren Keller Offline
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Registered: 07/13/17
Posts: 106
Loc: West Virginia
I hate to belabor this thread, but my issue persists. Per previous posts, matching levels between playback and RealBand helped a lot. In fact I'm pleased with most everything in the rendered WAV now It really boils down to delay effects. I'm convinced, that whether it's third party or the PG Chorus/Echo plug-in, the delay effect is not rendered accurately by RB's audio engine. I need to greatly exaggerate the delay time and repeat to get it to be perceptible in the WAV. It's still not a perfect match, but this is what I need to do to get the delay to feel close to what I'm going for. It doesn't happen with a tight chorusdelay, but it does happen with a long echo type delay. Thoughts appreciated, but I can't help but think it's something in the summation engine. Thanks!
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Warren A. Keller- Woodwindist, Writer, Singer

"I have my ship and all her flags are a-flyin'
She is all that I have left and music is her name"

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