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#443299 - 12/07/17 08:50 AM [Off-Topic] Why PG Music Caters to Windows Users
Registered: 05/15/15
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Islansoul Offline
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Registered: 05/15/15
Posts: 792
Loc: St. Petersburg , FL
Dear PG Music,

Please explain to me why you solely target BIAB for Windows users? Why do us Mac users get the basic features of BIAB, Why do you only make Real Band, Power Tracks, and the iOS app only for Windows users? I love BIAB, but your marketing lacks common sense. If you are going to get both OS users to buy your product, you should make sure that all the version has all the same features and software, at the same time. Again, I love BIAB, but I just wish you could be fair to both parties.
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#443306 - 12/07/17 09:08 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Why PG Music Caters to Windows Users [Re: Islansoul]
Registered: 12/27/13
Posts: 1318
Loc: St. Louis, MO. USA
sslechta Offline
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No offense sir but you have to look at overall market share. There are just a lot more PC users than MAC:

Older info but probably not too much different....

According to the latest numbers from NetMarketShare, the Mac now accounts for 9.57 percent of all PCs currently in use. Windows is of course still number one, with 88.77 percent of all usage. (Linux is in third, with 1.65 percent.)May 3, 2016 - https://www.thurrott.com/hardware/66933/mac-nears-10-percent-usage-share
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#443308 - 12/07/17 09:12 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Why PG Music Caters to Windows Users [Re: sslechta]
Registered: 05/15/15
Posts: 792
Loc: St. Petersburg , FL
Islansoul Offline
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Registered: 05/15/15
Posts: 792
Loc: St. Petersburg , FL
Originally Posted By: sslechta
No offense sir but you have to look at overall market share. There are just a lot more PC users than MAC:

Older info but probably not too much different....

According to the latest numbers from NetMarketShare, the Mac now accounts for 9.57 percent of all PCs currently in use. Windows is of course still number one, with 88.77 percent of all usage. (Linux is in third, with 1.65 percent.)May 3, 2016 - https://www.thurrott.com/hardware/66933/mac-nears-10-percent-usage-share


So, what? Most of the audio industry uses Macs, and most plugins, DAWs, and virtual instruments cater to both OSs with the same features.


Edited by Islansoul (12/07/17 09:12 AM)
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#443325 - 12/07/17 09:41 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Why PG Music Caters to Windows Users [Re: Islansoul]
Registered: 06/04/00
Posts: 2131
Loc: New Mexico
Larry Kehl Offline
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And I say so what to that, IT COSTS TIME AND MONEY to write and test code for multiple OS's are you willing to fork over more money FOR BIAB for Mac's. I don't want Mac work by PG to affect or have impact on development of stuff for the PC version or have that Mac work indirectly add to cost of the PC product because folks have to be paid, overhead has to be paid, ....

There are Apple programs that exclusively Apple OS: should we I complain to Apple about Logic Pro?

Besides I don't want to indirectly underwrite Apple any more than I absolutely have to. As a matter of fact I'd like to see the whole company (Apple) fold up their tent and go away.

Peace

Larry




Edited by Larry Kehl (12/07/17 09:42 AM)
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#443331 - 12/07/17 09:56 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Why PG Music Caters to Windows Users [Re: Larry Kehl]
Registered: 05/15/15
Posts: 792
Loc: St. Petersburg , FL
Islansoul Offline
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Registered: 05/15/15
Posts: 792
Loc: St. Petersburg , FL
Originally Posted By: Larry Kehl
And I say so what to that, IT COSTS TIME AND MONEY to write and test code for multiple OS's are you willing to fork over more money FOR BIAB for Mac's. I don't want Mac work by PG to affect or have impact on development of stuff for the PC version or have that Mac work indirectly add to cost of the PC product because folks have to be paid, overhead has to be paid, ....

There are Apple programs that exclusively Apple OS: should we I complain to Apple about Logic Pro?

Besides I don't want to indirectly underwrite Apple any more than I absolutely have to. As a matter of fact I'd like to see the whole company (Apple) fold up their tent and go away.

Peace



Larry




I understand your point about the whole Apple marketing scheme ever since Steve Jobs died and I don't think it will have an impact on the cost of the PC version, and you have every right to complain about Logic Pro being only for Mac users. If you look at what you get with the Mac version, you would conclude that you would be better off getting a laptop PC and buying BIAB for Windows. What I am asking for is for PG Music to respect both parties.


Edited by Islansoul (12/07/17 09:56 AM)
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#443475 - 12/07/17 09:53 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Why PG Music Caters to Windows Users [Re: Islansoul]
Registered: 09/27/10
Posts: 2417
Loc: Sacramento, California
dcuny Offline
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Well, BiaB has its roots as a DOS application that became a Windows application.

So the codebase is pretty firmly planted on the PC.

When choosing to create a Mac application, I suspect that PG Music has a choice: port the existing Windows application to a cross-platform library so that Mac version could share a common codebase, or build the Mac port from scratch.

As far as I know, there weren't very many cross-platform libraries that supplied native look and feel and had excellent audio support.

Moving to a cross-platform library would mean potentially replacing solid, working code with bug-ridden new code that at the end of a long effort might not even work well.

I'm guessing that they decided to build the Mac version from scratch.

But when you build a complex computer program, you don't really build everything "from scratch." Instead, you end up relying on third party tools to supply some of the features.

For example, BiaB uses a third party library to handle audio stretching, which is far superior to what they had before.

Unfortunately, not every library available on the PC platform is available on the Mac. So right there, you're not going to have parity for the two programs. You're not going to remove features from the PC just because you don't have it for the Mac, right?

Then comes the question of which version is going to be the reference platform. You generally don't want to have different features in the applications, so you're going to code them on one platform first.

For reasons already mentioned, it makes sense for the PC to be the reference platform.

Now, not every feature that gets coded makes it out the door. Sometimes changes made to the code break other features in unexpected ways. So it makes sense that features wouldn't be ported to the Mac until they were actually demonstrated to work on the PC. Otherwise, it's twice as expensive when you make a mistake and have to abandon something.

Finally, I'm sure that it's expensive to maintain two separate applications. Someone who's intimately familiar with the Windows API is generally not also a Mac specialist. So it's likely that the Mac coding team is smaller than the PC coding team.

I suspect that there are just a lot of things that make it hard to get the Mac version up to the level of the PC.

None of this is any consolation to a Mac user.
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#443479 - 12/07/17 10:14 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Why PG Music Caters to Windows Users [Re: Islansoul]
Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 8472
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
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One can make a similar comparison with car models, washing machines, television sets and more. Some manufacturers will have more or different features than other manufacturers.

In addition to the useful dialog from others above, I understand and respect your frustration, but you actually can have all of the features of the PC version if you want. Just buy the PC version.
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#443509 - 12/08/17 03:44 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Why PG Music Caters to Windows Users [Re: Islansoul]
Registered: 07/05/16
Posts: 221
Loc: Byron Bay, NSW, Australia
Matcham Offline
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Loc: Byron Bay, NSW, Australia
I'm in two minds on the issue. On the one hand, I reckon PG Music is missing an opportunity in not targeting Macs. Macs are ubiquitous in the audio industry. If you want the trickle down effect from celebrity endorsements etc then you should come to the party. As it stands the PC orientation brands BIAB as a hobbyists program.

On the other hand, as a Mac user I'm not sure I'm missing out on much. I don't think Realband is for me when I have Logic Pro at my disposal. BIAB does everything I want it to ie access to cool Realtracks. Maybe it's because I'm a Mac user but I see BIAB as part of the music production process, not an all-in-one solution.
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#443517 - 12/08/17 05:05 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Why PG Music Caters to Windows Users [Re: Matcham]
Registered: 10/31/08
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Noel96 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Matcham
Maybe it's because I'm a Mac user but I see BIAB as part of the music production process, not an all-in-one solution.

I'm a Windows user and that's exactly how I think, too.
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#443521 - 12/08/17 05:50 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Why PG Music Caters to Windows Users [Re: Islansoul]
Registered: 12/05/11
Posts: 6316
Loc: GA USA
Janice & Bud Offline
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Originally Posted By: Matcham
....On the other hand, as a Mac user I'm not sure I'm missing out on much. I don't think Realband is for me when I have Logic Pro at my disposal. BIAB does everything I want it to ie access to cool Realtracks. Maybe it's because I'm a Mac user but I see BIAB as part of the music production process, not an all-in-one solution.


Exactly.

I love BiaB

I love my Mac, iPad and iPhone

I love the amazing power of Logic Pro X and its $199 price with free and frequent updates.

I love Izotope and their world of Mac compatible products.

I love Apple’s cloistered “we’ll take care of you world” including absolutely seamless IOS and MacOS updates.

I often communicate with BiaB Windows users and for my production purposes I don’t feel that I’m lacking. Your results may vary and I apppreciate and understand that.

Cheers, Bud


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#443528 - 12/08/17 06:31 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Why PG Music Caters to Windows Users [Re: Noel96]
Registered: 12/27/03
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MarioD Offline
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Originally Posted By: Noel96
Originally Posted By: Matcham
Maybe it's because I'm a Mac user but I see BIAB as part of the music production process, not an all-in-one solution.

I'm a Windows user and that's exactly how I think, too.


That makes at least three of us who think this way.
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#443532 - 12/08/17 06:50 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Why PG Music Caters to Windows Users [Re: Islansoul]
Registered: 07/06/00
Posts: 4476
Loc: Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.
Notes Norton Offline
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First of all, although I sell aftermarket styles for BiaB, I have no professional experience with PG Music except for a friendly one, and no 'inside information' so everything here is guesswork.

1) It takes thousands and thousands of hours to write software.

2) If you look at my style/fake business for BiaB and if you look at the average number of people reading the forums, there are 20 BiaB users on PC to 1 on Mac.

3) Therefore for the programmer spending thousands and thousands of hours writing code, for ever one dollar writing Mac code brings in, the PC brings in 20 dollars.

Fortunately style and song data are cross platform, so at Norton Music, I release Mac and PC versions at the same time and they are equal.

But put yourself in PG's shoes.

Say you are on your job and you had a choice at work to work on Project A and Project B. Both projects are time consuming and would take about the same amount of time to complete. Project A pays you a bonus over your regular pay of $1 per hour and Project B pays a bonus of $20 per hour. Which would you take?

The problem with Apple is that they make their products non-compatible with the rest of the computer world. Even in the early days by using screws that needed a patented tool to open the cases so a non-Apple computer tech couldn't even fix them because they controlled to tools.

They use proprietary jacks (like the lightning) that they keep the patent on, and as soon as the patent becomes PD, they will introduce another patented connection.

Why?

Steve Jobs' philosophy. Keep the Apple people from straying to another platform by making the switch either difficult or costly.

Now I can't say whether that is a good business plan or not, because I'm not in their shoes, but it does make things difficult for the cross-platform software author.

Getting paid 20 times more for the same amount of work on the PC is very tempting.

But of course, that leaves an opportunity for another to write exclusively for Mac and take the lower profits because the competition in the Windows arena is also very fierce.

And Apple isn't the only one that does this. I had a minivan that I need because I'm a gigging musician. After about 90,000 miles the transmission oil needed changing. My mechanic explained to me that it needs Mopar oil which costs $85.00 per quart. He said they change the specifications a tiny bit, that doesn't really matter, but if I put anything else into it, it will void the 100,000 mile warranty. The car gave me good service so I paid $85.00 per quart. It was OK, the van lasted about 200,000 miles before I wore it out.

Because of these fairly common business practices, Apple people sometimes have to wait or settle for less in the software arena, but on the other had, they also get exclusives.

And I do freelance recording as 'sax for hire' and every studio I've been in for the past 20 years has had both Mac and PC computers in it. Probably for the same troubles you are going through.

Insights and incites by Notes


Edited by Notes Norton (12/08/17 07:01 AM)
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#443534 - 12/08/17 06:54 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Why PG Music Caters to Windows Users [Re: MarioD]
Registered: 10/21/07
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MikeK Offline
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Originally Posted By: MarioD
Originally Posted By: Noel96
Originally Posted By: Matcham
Maybe it's because I'm a Mac user but I see BIAB as part of the music production process, not an all-in-one solution.

I'm a Windows user and that's exactly how I think, too.


That makes at least three of us who think this way.


Make that four. smile
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#443537 - 12/08/17 07:23 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Why PG Music Caters to Windows Users [Re: Islansoul]
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Matt Finley Offline
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You can run the PC version of BIAB on your Mac with a utility. Peter Gannon does.
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#443542 - 12/08/17 07:44 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Why PG Music Caters to Windows Users [Re: Islansoul]
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90 dB Offline
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#443564 - 12/08/17 09:25 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Why PG Music Caters to Windows Users [Re: MarioD]
Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 144
Loc: Montreal, Canada
bobbyt9999 Offline
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Originally Posted By: MarioD
Originally Posted By: Noel96
Originally Posted By: Matcham
Maybe it's because I'm a Mac user but I see BIAB as part of the music production process, not an all-in-one solution.

I'm a Windows user and that's exactly how I think, too.


That makes at least three of us who think this way.


That makes 4 of us.

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#443570 - 12/08/17 09:47 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Why PG Music Caters to Windows Users [Re: Islansoul]
Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 17726
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
Matt Finley Offline
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Yes, there is the BIAB app, but that’s not what I meant. Run boot camp or parallels on the Mac, load Windows, then run BIAB for PC.
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#443581 - 12/08/17 10:45 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Why PG Music Caters to Windows Users [Re: sslechta]
Registered: 09/22/03
Posts: 985
Loc: somewhere in outer space
w Offline
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Registered: 09/22/03
Posts: 985
Loc: somewhere in outer space
Originally Posted By: sslechta
No offense sir but you have to look at overall market share. There are just a lot more PC users than MAC:

Older info but probably not too much different....

According to the latest numbers from NetMarketShare, the Mac now accounts for 9.57 percent of all PCs currently in use. Windows is of course still number one, with 88.77 percent of all usage. (Linux is in third, with 1.65 percent.)May 3, 2016 - https://www.thurrott.com/hardware/66933/mac-nears-10-percent-usage-share


However: that is only true for business use computers.

When it comes to the creative use of computers the top video/audio recording studios use Mac.
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#443586 - 12/08/17 11:02 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Why PG Music Caters to Windows Users [Re: Matt Finley]
Registered: 12/05/11
Posts: 6316
Loc: GA USA
Janice & Bud Offline
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Originally Posted By: Matt Finley
Yes, there is the BIAB app, but that’s not what I meant. Run boot camp or parallels on the Mac, load Windows, then run BIAB for PC.


Hey Matt, wouldn't this make you vulnerable to the vast world of PC virus if you had to access the net via the partition? I know a lot of Mac users including myself who would not relish the notion of having to load Windows antivirus software or deal with the host of Windows update issues. FWIW.

Bud
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#443588 - 12/08/17 11:04 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Why PG Music Caters to Windows Users [Re: Matt Finley]
Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 8031
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
Don Gaynor Offline
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Posts: 8031
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Steve Jobs' marketing strategy was to get Apple Computers into schools if even at a dead loss. He realized the "future value" of building a huge and loyal customer base. We are seeing a generation of adults who were weaned on Apple and aren't about to change.

The result has been that Apple has held a monopoly on their hardware/software development making outside developers cautious to invest the required R&D time/money to develop anything for Apple Computers. Apple retains too much unfettered control.

I'm seeing a lot of Apple versions being shipped that I attribute to the "Jobs' Marketing Strategy".

When I shopped my first ever computer, I looked for the OS that had the most software available. At that time, Windows PCs had 10 times more software that I was interested in and the pricing was lower due, in part, to the "free market" cloning of IBM computers.

In this regard, Jobs shot himself in the foot. While IBM clones were being made in abundance worldwide, Apples were limited to a very limited production in Apple facilities where Jobs maintained tight ( probably to a paranoid degree ) control.

Donny

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