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#447596 - 12/28/17 06:23 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: How many tracks does your song usually have? [Re: Janice & Bud]
Registered: 11/30/07
Posts: 1977
Loc: Ontario, Canada
BlueAttitude Offline
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Registered: 11/30/07
Posts: 1977
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Janice & Bud


With RD’s I often double the snare (learned from floyd) so I have a max of two drum tracks - the kit and the snare.



Bud, how can you double the snare if you are using realdrums? Or, are you building a separate snare track using loops??
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#447633 - 12/28/17 09:05 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: How many tracks does your song usually have? [Re: fantasyvn]
Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 11099
Loc: Pensacola, Florida
jford Offline
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Quote:
Bud, how can you double the snare if you are using realdrums? Or, are you building a separate snare track using loops??


I had that same thought when I read it, since RealDrums are stereo recordings of the entire drum set.
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#447659 - 12/28/17 10:28 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: How many tracks does your song usually have? [Re: fantasyvn]
Registered: 12/05/11
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Janice & Bud Offline
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David S asked about this and this is what I sent him.

Several years ago floyd told me that he often doubled the snare by using a second track and positioning a snare hit snippet under each BiaB snare hit on the wave form. I later discovered that for each RD there is an audio file hidden in the depths of BiaB folders that includes several minutes of the drum track and at the end has the actual individual hits, e.g., snare, kick, tom, ride, high hat, etc.

So my method is to cut the snare hit out of the respective “hidden” RD drum audio file and use it for the double. Since the RD is, well, a real human, lining them up was tedious at first as the RD snare would not always be right on the beat but for a, say, three minute song it only takes about 15 minutes or so. Then you can process the snare track anyway you wish and it's the same snare that's in the original full kit. I used Ozone’s imager module to “spread” the sound a bit and them pan it dead center. Some times I'll pull out other hits from the RD audio file to build my own drum intro, etc.

Oh, my DAW (Logic Pro X) has a snare replacement function designed for it's drummers but it works pretty well on a RD; however, I think doubling them as mentioned above with the same sound works best. I love the snare sound that Mellecamp has had for decades and that's the sound I aim for. Farm rock smile

Bud
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#447673 - 12/28/17 12:05 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: How many tracks does your song usually have? [Re: fantasyvn]
Registered: 11/30/07
Posts: 1977
Loc: Ontario, Canada
BlueAttitude Offline
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Very cool, thanks Bud! I'm going to try that technique on my next song smile
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#447685 - 12/28/17 01:01 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: How many tracks does your song usually have? [Re: fantasyvn]
Registered: 08/10/12
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Loc: Florida
floyd jane Offline
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Do the same thing with the Kick on a separate track.

Then you can control both - Kick and Snare...
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#447693 - 12/28/17 01:36 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: How many tracks does your song usually have? [Re: Janice & Bud]
Registered: 12/27/13
Posts: 1342
Loc: St. Louis, MO. USA
sslechta Offline
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Originally Posted By: Janice & Bud
I later discovered that for each RD there is an audio file hidden in the depths of BiaB folders that includes several minutes of the drum track and at the end has the actual individual hits, e.g., snare, kick, tom, ride, high hat, etc.

Hey Bud, I dug up an old post from the "Post your own Tips and Tricks" forum where I went into detail a little more on that in case anyone is interested:

Changing drum style within existing song
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#447712 - 12/28/17 02:46 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: How many tracks does your song usually have? [Re: sslechta]
Registered: 12/05/11
Posts: 6596
Loc: GA USA
Janice & Bud Offline
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Originally Posted By: sslechta
Originally Posted By: Janice & Bud
I later discovered that for each RD there is an audio file hidden in the depths of BiaB folders that includes several minutes of the drum track and at the end has the actual individual hits, e.g., snare, kick, tom, ride, high hat, etc.

Hey Bud, I dug up an old post from the "Post your own Tips and Tricks" forum where I went into detail a little more on that in case anyone is interested:

Changing drum style within existing song


Thanks! I knew I couldn't have been the first to find that smile

Bud
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#447722 - 12/28/17 04:03 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: How many tracks does your song usually have? [Re: BlueAttitude]
Registered: 08/29/14
Posts: 4647
Loc: North Carolina
David Snyder Offline
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OR,

for lazier people like me, you can double or triple the entire drum track then add a 10 band EQ to extract them snares and pull 'em out..

Technology can do it a lot of thangs...Tater Totts taught me this one...

You get double or triple your money with Band in a Box. It's almost as good as a Double Whopper with a super size side of fries at Thanksgiving.






Attachments
Snare.jpg


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#447769 - 12/28/17 11:44 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: How many tracks does your song usually have? [Re: fantasyvn]
Registered: 08/12/16
Posts: 8
erickabadude Offline
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Registered: 08/12/16
Posts: 8
Originally Posted By: fantasyvn
Could you pls help me with this question. If you generate a song in BIAB, usually it only has a few tracks (bass, drum, guitar, piano, synth). If you add your own vocal singing the melody, and some harmony vocals, it seems you still only have about 10 tracks.

But when I saw some mixing tutorials on the web, especially for the professional songs, apparently a song may have 60, 70 tracks.


A typical EDM track has 60 to 100 tracks. The magic answer is 'layering'. A lot of layering goes into tracks that are done properly. On synths, atmosphere, kicks and other elements as well like claps, hi hats, etc. 60 kind of seems low actually but again, depends on what kind of music you are making. For EDM is super low. Maybe even for trap music too.

Also go on Google and type 'Hyperbits Revolution'. Click on the first link and half way through the page is a video tutorial. It's an hour long tutorial and you'll learn TONS! Even if you're not and EDM producer, it should give you a good idea on how to make real professional tracks. Dude easily has over 80 tracks.

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#447837 - 12/29/17 09:01 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: How many tracks does your song usually have? [Re: erickabadude]
Registered: 08/29/14
Posts: 4647
Loc: North Carolina
David Snyder Offline
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Good points.

One observation--actually several. EDM is kind of its own thing. It is also constantly evolving.

You CAN make an EDM composition with 200 tracks but you can also use any one of the EDM or techno styles from BIAB and add in your own string parts and piano parts and such and make an EDM song with 10 tracks or less.

Put side by side, it's user's choice. The listener will decide.

(I found the guy's comment about the basic Compressor unit looking like something from NASA was funny. It was like "Man you haven't seen complicated. That's a cereal bowl full of fruit loops and warm milk, dude.")

Anyway, in music you can do anything you want. If you want to paste together a great song with 5000 samples, you can do it. But you can also do great song in EDM with 12 tracks or a great jazz song with 3 tracks. Or one.

Also, people who play instruments and who have been studying piano or guitar since they were two years old will never agree with loopers on how many tracks you need to make a professional song.

But, since you can do whatever you want in music, I say do it. If you write the greatest song in the world with two tracks and both of them done on the first take I say bravo. If you spend 4 days pasting together 100 synths to do as many variations of the same piano riff, well bravo to that too.

Come to think of it, though, I think I get the most goosebumps listening to Hilary Hahn do one track.

But, well, she has a lot going on, that Hilary Hahn.

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#447872 - 12/29/17 12:42 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: How many tracks does your song usually have? [Re: fantasyvn]
Registered: 08/29/14
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David Snyder Offline
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One Track. One Take.

Hilary Hahn

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3aloHY7I_g

No effects.

That's what I'm talking about.

Go Hilary.

Or wait.

Maybe 4 tracks.

Jeff Beck

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKjHBd7nOiM

F.M.M. will know what I'm saying.

smile

Tal Wilkenfeld was 15 at the time I think....
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#447996 - 12/30/17 01:51 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: How many tracks does your song usually have? [Re: David Snyder]
Registered: 11/30/07
Posts: 1977
Loc: Ontario, Canada
BlueAttitude Offline
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Registered: 11/30/07
Posts: 1977
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: David Snyder
.

Tal Wilkenfeld was 15 at the time I think....


I think she was actually in her early 20's at the time of that Ronnie Scotts gig. And the ultimate track for me from that particular concert that showcases her talent is this one:

https://youtu.be/r3ZPWFKrocc

Doesn't get much better than that! I've probably watched that DVD 50 times, never gets old smile


Edited by BlueAttitude (12/30/17 02:05 AM)
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#448048 - 12/30/17 09:51 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: How many tracks does your song usually have? [Re: BlueAttitude]
Registered: 12/27/13
Posts: 1342
Loc: St. Louis, MO. USA
sslechta Offline
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Registered: 12/27/13
Posts: 1342
Loc: St. Louis, MO. USA
Originally Posted By: BlueAttitude
I think she was actually in her early 20's at the time of that Ronnie Scotts gig. And the ultimate track for me from that particular concert that showcases her talent is this one:

https://youtu.be/r3ZPWFKrocc


Unfortunately that cannot be viewed in the U.S. from that link.
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#448052 - 12/30/17 10:10 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: How many tracks does your song usually have? [Re: sslechta]
Registered: 11/30/07
Posts: 1977
Loc: Ontario, Canada
BlueAttitude Offline
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Registered: 11/30/07
Posts: 1977
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: sslechta
Originally Posted By: BlueAttitude
I think she was actually in her early 20's at the time of that Ronnie Scotts gig. And the ultimate track for me from that particular concert that showcases her talent is this one:

https://youtu.be/r3ZPWFKrocc


Unfortunately that cannot be viewed in the U.S. from that link.


Man, that's too bad! Maybe this one will work for you: https://youtu.be/0Hg2zZ_7p0U

Well worth watching, she is amazing!

If not, do a search for "jeff beck cause we've ended as lovers ronnie scotts"



Edited by BlueAttitude (12/30/17 10:11 AM)
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#448063 - 12/30/17 11:07 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: How many tracks does your song usually have? [Re: fantasyvn]
Registered: 12/27/13
Posts: 1342
Loc: St. Louis, MO. USA
sslechta Offline
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Registered: 12/27/13
Posts: 1342
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No luck in the U.S. again: "This video contains content from Eagle Rock. It is not available in your country."

This one does it: https://youtu.be/NCRvSe_YiGs
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#448251 - 12/31/17 11:53 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: How many tracks does your song usually have? [Re: fantasyvn]
Registered: 12/29/16
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WendyM Offline
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Registered: 12/29/16
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I keep readindg here about how double tracks fattens up the sound.how does that work?If I copy and paste my vocal to a second one surely it just makes itlouder.Then I'd have to knock a few db off both and I'm back where I started.
Open to offers!lol
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#448256 - 12/31/17 12:19 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: How many tracks does your song usually have? [Re: WendyM]
Registered: 11/30/07
Posts: 1977
Loc: Ontario, Canada
BlueAttitude Offline
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Registered: 11/30/07
Posts: 1977
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: WendyM
I keep readindg here about how double tracks fattens up the sound.how does that work?If I copy and paste my vocal to a second one surely it just makes itlouder.Then I'd have to knock a few db off both and I'm back where I started.
Open to offers!lol
Wendy


Hi Wendy,

If you just copy and paste your vocal onto a new track then yes; when you combine them you will just end up with a vocal twice as loud.

To get a fatter or bigger sound the best way is to actually sing the same part twice. The reason it then sounds fatter is because it is just about impossible for you to sing them identical both times, they will be off slightly in pitch and in timing.

There are tools that simulate this doubling effect, but best way is to just sing it twice IMHO.



Edited by BlueAttitude (12/31/17 12:23 PM)
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#448271 - 12/31/17 01:40 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: How many tracks does your song usually have? [Re: BlueAttitude]
Registered: 12/27/03
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MarioD Offline
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Hi Wendy,

Dave's advice is very good. If you can't or don't want to sing it twice there are a few tricks you can try:

1-Copy your vocal twice. Pan you first track dead center. Pan the second track far left and detune it down a couple of cents. Then pan the third track far right and detune it up a couple of cents. You would do this in a DAW. If your DAW doesn't have detune the use your pitch bend.

2- using either two vocal tracks panned left and right or the above three tracks put a different subtle effect on the far left and right tracks. Maybe a little delay, or reverb or chorus.

3- on a single track put a very subtle chorus effect on it. This can thicken vocals.

4-there are doubling effects out there that combine panning and effects. Waves has one https://www.waves.com/plugins/doubler and it is very good.

5-Copy you vocal twice. Pan you first track dead center. Pan the second track far left and move it forward a tick or two. Then pan the third track far right and move it back a tick or two. You would do this in a DAW. Combine this with #1 and/or #2 if you wish.

Good luck and I hope this helps.
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#448280 - 12/31/17 03:29 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: How many tracks does your song usually have? [Re: fantasyvn]
Registered: 12/27/13
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sslechta Offline
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Very similar to Mario's step 5: I getter a fatter sound by duping the main vocal twice, especially on the chorus. Pan those two new copies one hard left and one hard right. Shift the left track 10ms earlier and right track 10 ms later than the original vocal in the center. Thickens up nicely.
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#448297 - 12/31/17 05:51 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: How many tracks does your song usually have? [Re: fantasyvn]
Registered: 08/29/14
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David Snyder Offline
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I think this last series of posts gets at what I was trying to offer earlier.

I ALWAYS copy the main vocal to at least two other tracks. The main stays center and the other two go left and right--slightly, I mean ever so slightly--panned.

The left and right vocals get some treatment, different for each track, maybe something from Nectar on one, and one of my own "homemade" effects chain strips on another with some tape saturation, or plate reverb, and additional EQing.

The MAIN vocal track on my stuff is sometimes completely dry and set just a little higher than the others--this gives my voice a more natural sound, but the other tracks add sweetness.

For my genre, I want to hear the grit and emotion in my voice, even the imperfections, because I am doing rock, or folk rock, or pop rock.

There are many ways to approach this but that is my recipe.

Also, your vocals will never sound twice as loud with a doubled (duped) track. The only way to make it louder is to increase the volume or gain.

Finally, signing along with yourself for another take is a whole different ball game and effect--it creates exactly what it sounds like--you singing along with yourself.

If this is not the effect you want (which is immediately evident) you need to copy and paste the track.

Hope that helps.

Happy New Year everyone.
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