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#454399 - 01/29/18 08:51 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: Guitarhacker]
Registered: 09/28/07
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Loc: Kennesaw (Atlanta) GA
Ryszard Offline
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Quote:
”Kinda like putting a home recording enthusiast into a multi-million dollar state of the art studio and turning him loose to record. The result will sound like he did it in his bedroom. By the same token, take a pro recording engineer and give him a laptop in a bedroom and he'll turn out something that will blow your mind.”


I had the enormous privilege of having a Grammy-nominated recording engineer do just that with my Sunn board and TEAC A2340-SX four-track RTR tape deck. As an experienced live sound engineer, I could do a lot; but he did more, and did it faster and better than I could. It was illuminating, to say the least!

R.
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#454416 - 01/29/18 09:36 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: eddie1261]
Registered: 07/12/00
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I had no idea John played trumpet. Very cool. He heard me play my jazz compositions (written in BIAB) with a symphony orchestra.

Eddie, what’s a Dm7 add 0 ?
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#454424 - 01/29/18 11:11 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: Matt Finley]
Registered: 04/08/11
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Loc: Akron, Oh
eddie1261 Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Matt Finley
Eddie, what’s a Dm7 add 0 ?


LOL!!! A typo that I will fix!

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#454425 - 01/29/18 11:14 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: eddie1261]
Registered: 12/27/13
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sslechta Online   content
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That's a silent note.
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#454432 - 01/29/18 11:45 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: sslechta]
Registered: 04/08/11
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Loc: Akron, Oh
eddie1261 Online   content
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Originally Posted By: sslechta
That's a silent note.


Or a chord embellishment that adds nothing to the song...

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#454439 - 01/29/18 12:09 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: eddie1261]
Registered: 08/04/10
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Loc: Midwest
HearToLearn Offline
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Everyone knows you can't add zero to a chord. You can only subtract it.
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#454451 - 01/29/18 12:51 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: eddie1261]
Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 11139
Loc: Pensacola, Florida
jford Offline
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Quote:
I had no idea John played trumpet.


Yep, I played first chair in our small Fort Knox High School Band in 11th and 12th grade, as well as my sophomore and senior year in college at North Georgia College (a well-respected military college). I didn't my junior year, because I was band master, so I directed/conducted the band instead (although I was not a music major).

I remember one time at all-district band, I played last chair in the "A" band (missed first chair in the "B" band by one smile - Hah!) Anyway, we were playing a jazzy kind of piece and it just wasn't sounding right. So the director started with first chair and had each person in turn play the solo, and each time, he'd say, "No, no, no! That's not how it should sound." And he got closer and closer to me (I think we had 9 trumpeters), and I'm going, "Oh, crap! If they can't do it, who am I?" Anyway, I played the part, and the director said, "YES! That's exactly how it's supposed to sound". I tell you, I got a lot of glares from up the line, but I got to play the solo at the concert.

Over the years, I've played a few times at church and accompanying a local community chorale on occasion. I just can't find the time to practice, so I've lost my embouchure and range, but I can still pick it up and finger the notes, although my tone leaves a lot to be desired. The "want to play" is there, but too many competing priorities.
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#454473 - 01/29/18 02:28 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: eddie1261]
Registered: 04/08/11
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Loc: Akron, Oh
eddie1261 Online   content
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I think part of why I am having a hard time wrapping my head around this is that I have never used BIAB. Never once. Only RB. Since the day I got the program I have used Real Band. That file incompatibility between the 2 programs was not fathomable to me. I had someone send me a BIAB chart once a few years back along with the MP3 of his song. I opened RB, imported it MGU (That's it, right? MGU from BIAB?), and RB completely regenerated that song so it sounded very little like the original MP3. The chord progression was the same but the chord voicings and the overall flavor was different. SO when Joanne said "Open melodist" I had no idea what she was talking about because I have never asked this software to create on its own.


Edited by eddie1261 (01/29/18 03:35 PM)

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#454480 - 01/29/18 03:05 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: eddie1261]
Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 927
Loc: Mobile, Alabama
KeithS Offline
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Loc: Mobile, Alabama
Originally Posted By: eddie1261
How hard is it to work with a group when "Go to the 4th there" means nothing?


How much harder is it to say, “Play an ‘F’ there” than to say “Go to the 4th”? If I’m the guy in the room with the largest music vocabulary, hopefully I know more than one way to quickly communicate an idea to a musician with less formal training. If a person has no musical,talent at all, then there is no reason for me to waste my time making a song work; but If I’m collaborating with a talented amateur, I’ll find some way to communicate on their level to make it work. I don’t want to sound like Barney Fife.

Barney Fife: “I’m surprised at you, Andy. They want people who have had musical training. Why, suppose they ask Rafe to do something he don't know? Rafe, if they asked you to sing a cappella, could you do it?”
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#454489 - 01/29/18 03:46 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: KeithS]
Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 4525
Loc: Akron, Oh
eddie1261 Online   content
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Originally Posted By: KeithS
“I’m surprised at you, Andy. They want people who have had musical training. Why, suppose they ask Rafe to do something he don't know? Rafe, if they asked you to sing a cappella, could you do it?”


Well, Barney, what if they asked YOU to sing a capella?

To answer your question, are professionals in any field not expected to know basic basics? I never met anybody in IT that called their mouse "the clicky thing". Had I told that guy "Play an F there", what would have happened on the next song when we were in E and I needed the 4th? Should I need to spoon feed things to professionals? The 4th is always the 4th note in a scale. The physical chord, obviously, changes depending on the key.

Note that this same guy told us twice every week for 12 weeks "I am going to go start taking theory lessons." On week 12 I told him "Jesus Christ. Either start taking theory lessons or stop telling us you are going to start taking theory lessons. Had you started when you said you were going to you'd have 11 weeks of theory lessons under your belt."

Had he come in and said "I don't know a lot of theory" I would have known how to speak to him when he needed some direction. And would have been happy to help him learn had he asked. But he chose to bluff and made the same mistakes every rehearsal. Mistakes should happen only once. Not just in music. In life.

(Says the guy who was married 3 times...)

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#454509 - 01/29/18 05:09 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: eddie1261]
Registered: 06/04/00
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Loc: New Mexico
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or a song that adds nothing to the embellishment? <G>
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#454545 - 01/29/18 07:13 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: eddie1261]
Registered: 08/20/11
Posts: 4610
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC USA
Jim Fogle Online   happy
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Eddie,

Your post and your poll but ... The way the a, b, c responses are worded make me believe the responses are intermingling music knowledge with music skill.

Many can agree that the Nashville session players of the fifties, sixties and seventies were highly skilled musicians. But, many lacked formal music knowledge so Nashville Notation was developed so they could communicate and formulate ideas. ABC Notation that PG Music started supporting with 2018 BiaB for Windows was created for similar reasons.

I believe a person can use their ears and tools such as the Chord Builder that PG Music provides to create a song. Imagine a person noodling on a piano keyboard or whistling to develop a melody. They can then use the chord builder and the metronome to blindly find the tempo, chords, feel and time signature that follows their melody. Time consuming? Sure. Painful? Of course but doable.

My responses: Formal music training? A How good a musician? Permanent beginner. Continually relearning as I need it.
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#454556 - 01/29/18 08:40 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: eddie1261]
Registered: 05/12/12
Posts: 2432
Loc: South Africa
JoanneCooper Offline
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Hi Eddie. I used both BIAB and RealBand. I always start getting the structure style and tempo right in Biab and then save it as an mgu then move over to RealBand to record vocals, add effects and generate additional instruments. It always takes a while to open the mgu file in RealBand the first time but after you save it as a seq file it is quick.

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#454608 - 01/30/18 05:13 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: eddie1261]
Registered: 07/06/00
Posts: 4585
Loc: Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.
Notes Norton Offline
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I prefer to work with people who know music theory and can read -- but also who can play by ear.

Different skills, but IMO all are important.

Extremely important to me is someone who has fun playing. I've met some monsters who are so serious about the music that they aren't having fun. I guess that's a valid approach for some, but not for me.

And to me Nashville Notation is a variation of the system we learned in school; using Roman numerals, capitals for major and lower case for minor. So a 2m7 or a 2-7 would be ii7 and a 57 would be a V7. That leaves Arabic numbers for extensions instead of the triad. That's easier for me, probably because I grew up with it.

And I've played in 'club-date' bands where the leader held up fingers for key signatures. Two fingers up meant two sharps, one down meant one flat, a fist no sharps or flats, and your knowledge of the song tells you whether it is major or minor.

And a Dm7 add 0 might mean - no embellishments, no substitutions, just play the chord wink

When in school I was first sax in the all-state band, and section leader on tenor (that seat goes to the first alto by default) every year that I was in school. I've been treated as a peer by some of the most famous musicians in the world back when we were the opening act for major stars, and I was in a the house band of a jazz jam where people like Ira Sullivan, Red Rodney, Duffy Jackson and other big jazzers sat in. Some of these people were real monsters. As confident as I am in my own abilities, when some of them came to town, I felt like I was faking it. "Monster" is a relative term.

I think no matter how good you are, there are always players out there better than you, and players worse than you as well. So I'm happy with my level of proficiency, and at the same time, even in my senior years, I am working on my skills to get better.

To me music isn't a destination but a voyage.

Notes
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#454618 - 01/30/18 05:51 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: Notes Norton]
Registered: 04/08/11
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eddie1261 Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Notes Norton
And a Dm7 add 0 might mean - no embellishments, no substitutions, just play the chord wink


Yeah, in this case it meant "Old man typing without his glasses hit the 0 instead of the 9 and didn't see it until Matt pointed it out".

The same old man who gets laser surgery on the other eye today....

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#454621 - 01/30/18 06:09 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: eddie1261]
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Notes Norton Offline
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Originally Posted By: eddie1261
Originally Posted By: Notes Norton
And a Dm7 add 0 might mean - no embellishments, no substitutions, just play the chord wink


Yeah, in this case it meant "Old man typing without his glasses hit the 0 instead of the 9 and didn't see it until Matt pointed it out".

The same old man who gets laser surgery on the other eye today....


I understand. I have typos built into my fingers. They came as standard equipment. I even have Type O Blood.

And being farsighted makes this computer screen hide so many of those typos.

Notes
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#454640 - 01/30/18 07:48 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: eddie1261]
Registered: 09/09/17
Posts: 433
Loc: Virginia
Belladonna Offline
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I look at BIAB as a tool and a very nice tool I must say. Again back to being a painter as all arts are related. There was a time when the Dutch Masters and Rembrandt and Leonardo were painting portraits of the rich and famous. And then the camera was invented and all of a sudden many people were taking pictures and painters sort of fell out of fashion. So now almost everyone could have a portrait hanging on the wall. But did the photographers have the skills of the artists, hardly. In photography today yes more skills are required to be a professional. But still a highly skilled painter requires a lot more. The creativity and technique is what sets apart the professionals from the novice in my opinion.

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#454676 - 01/30/18 11:03 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: eddie1261]
Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 18387
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
Matt Finley Online   content
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I had the laser cataract surgery. That’s why I could see it. But why not just write Dm9?
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#454681 - 01/30/18 11:21 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: Matt Finley]
Registered: 04/08/11
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eddie1261 Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Matt Finley
I had the laser cataract surgery. That’s why I could see it. But why not just write Dm9?


Because I tend to be wordy, verbose, repetitive and redundant. Always and forever....

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#455396 - 02/03/18 06:10 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: eddie1261]
Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 19169
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
rharv Offline
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I had a real eye opening experience Thursday night in this regard.
A little back history; I am recording 4 guys that played together 8 years ago for a bit.
They got back together to write another CD. Drummer, Bass player, guitarist, and keyboards/sax/vocals.

For 10 weeks there was a fair amount of time spent trying to teach the guitarist his part. Granted they were writing new songs, but after repeatedly playing the same song it would get old sometimes.

He was sick on Thursday, so just the other 3 were there.
They wrote 4 songs and recorded almost keeper tracks as demo to remember the songs. That is compared to 1 song a night previously.

The difference? These 3 know theory, they know how to listen, and they know their instruments well enough to play what they hear .. but they can also say "Yeah, for that section let's do 1-2-1-4-2-5 and hold the 5 for 3 bars", and they know what to do.

And they listen.
Magical things happen when players listen in a live setting and understand theory and song structures.

For instance during one section of a brand new song writing attempt (jam) the keyboard player started a 'call/answer' pattern. After he did it twice, the drummer had caught on and on the third call played a pretty complex pattern on his bass drum that accented the 'call'. This in turn caused the bass player to catch on, so the fourth (final) time they all accented the call, which made that whole section build up. This was very cool to hear from guys playing something they were writing (making up) at the same time. They understand theory and listen and it makes a huge difference.

When the guitar player is there he muddies things up enough to distract the other guys and they don't get the chance to listen to each other. Plus the time spent explaining what they were doing to him when he couldn't understand theory. That's like talking to someone who doesn't understand the native language.

So Thursday I had to point out the elephant in the room.
It's funny, they were all thinking it, but afraid to say it because it might cause strife between the band. Every one of them thanked me for saying it.
Sometimes being the recording engineer comes with certain freedoms. <grin>
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