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#455417 - 02/03/18 08:34 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: eddie1261]
Registered: 07/12/00
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Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
Matt Finley Online   content
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Yes, in the studio I listen carefully to any opinion the engineer offers. He or she normally doesn't say much if the producer if good, so when they do say something, it's the product of a lot of experience talking. Good for you, Bob.

And yes, I would quickly go crazy working with anyone who wasn't sharp on theory.
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#455422 - 02/03/18 08:51 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: eddie1261]
Registered: 05/30/00
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Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
rharv Offline
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Charlie! I spent 5 minutes replying to you only to see a message that the post I was replying to got deleted!

Arrgh. smile

Matt, the more time I spend with them the more I get the group dynamics and intent of their project, so each week I get more comfortable suggesting things. The fact that they are objective and consider my input also encourages this. Some bands don't want to hear it, so I just sit there and push buttons and sliders .. and I'm OK with that too. <grin>
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#455431 - 02/03/18 09:14 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: eddie1261]
Registered: 07/12/00
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Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
Matt Finley Online   content
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Any client who doesn't listen to the engineer is a fool. But how you get them to listen to you shows you have solid people skills, Bob!
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#455451 - 02/03/18 10:46 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: rharv]
Registered: 04/07/13
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Loc: South Carolina
Charlie Fogle Offline
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Originally Posted By: rharv
Charlie! I spent 5 minutes replying to you only to see a message that the post I was replying to got deleted!

Arrgh. smile


I quickly realized my comments were off point and inappropriate to make. Please excuse my bad judgement.
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#455464 - 02/03/18 12:48 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: rharv]
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eddie1261 Online   content
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Originally Posted By: rharv
So Thursday I had to point out the elephant in the room.


Funny you mention that. Musicians all over Cleveland don't like me much because I have never seen an elephant in the room that I did not quickly point out....

Sometimes even a 400 pound gorilla. (If it's the bass player.)


Edited by eddie1261 (02/03/18 12:49 PM)
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#455484 - 02/03/18 02:40 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: rharv]
Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 8482
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
VideoTrack Offline
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Excellent article, Bob. Thanks for articulating it so well and providing the detail that was needed to show the whole picture.

Many musicians could learn valuable lessons by adopting those practices.
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#455531 - 02/04/18 01:53 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: VideoTrack]
Registered: 12/20/16
Posts: 330
Loc: Gold Coast, Queensland, Austra...
Teunis Offline
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Loc: Gold Coast, Queensland, Austra...
I find this puzzling I ask myself would a person with absolutely no musical understanding be interested in creating music. If so would they not at least attempt to get some basic understanding.

I once played guitar for an old time dance band back in the early 70's. The band leader insisted we could read and her best reader was her trumpet player. She would tell us what tunes we were playing and hand out the sheets. However, she would hand out the sheet say in the key of C the proceed to play in Bb. The next night play the same sheet and play in F or maybe A. I asked the trumpet player how he coped. His reply was " Don't tell her I can't really read. I just work out where she is and follow the dots up and down, I know how long the notes are, but I don't know what's what". My opinion was this guy knew music and did in fact sort of read and transpose on the fly better than most.

Over the years I have spent a lot of time helping people by backing folk in country music clubs. At these country music clubs members come along to sing a song. If you were lucky enough to get a chord sheet of any meaning you often had to listen to what the artist was doing and work things out on the fly. In these cases experience outweighs the ability to read. To be able to play solos based on what the artist was singing and or help them out when they faltered was a priority.

These days I can't read a note but I do understand what should go where. At 69 I can still play guitar blindfolded or behind my head. I just can't play it as well as I did 40 years ago but I still enjoy it and it is great to go around nursing homes (and other places) having people singing along with me and enjoying a good time.

My thoughts

Tony
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#455544 - 02/04/18 04:32 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: Teunis]
Registered: 06/05/12
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Loc: Melbourne, Australia
VideoTrack Offline
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Originally Posted By: Teunis
...These days I can't read a note but I do understand what should go where. At 69 I can still play guitar blindfolded or behind my head. I just can't play it as well as I did 40 years ago but I still enjoy it and it is great to go around nursing homes (and other places) having people singing along with me and enjoying a good time.

To be honest, I can't think of any single thing that could possibly be wrong with that. Not a single thing. Keep at it.
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#455591 - 02/04/18 09:43 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: eddie1261]
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eddie1261 Online   content
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Reading, while it is a helpful tool, is not always necessary. You'd just not really get calls for session work where it is a sight reading gig, and there is not a lot of that around much anymore. It is quite easy to get by playing copy dates because you can learn "songs" without learning "music" (they ARE 2 different things). But the statement can never be made that a player who read sis somehow "better" than a player who does not.

The thing about someone with a background comes into play where you go to a rehearsal and the guy leading the song will say "This is in C." You can then immediately envision C-F-G with a Dm, and Am, possibly an Em tossed in somewhere for flavor. THOSE guys are easier to lead around the maze of a brand new song than the ones who have to hear a song 150 times before they know the chord changes. The readers and more heavily steeped in theory players are likely listening to the song for the first time and writing a chord chart, where a guy who doesn't have the chord recognition tool in his bag wouldn't know what to write, only to remember that "at this place change to this chord".

One great example I can give you was a spot in a song in C where there is a breakout section that went Dm, Bdim, F. Gsus, G.... to say that to someone who doesn't know what notes make up that Bdim, you may as well be speaking French to a Cuban. But to tell that guy "B, D F, G# or Ab (however he chooses to think of that note - I would say Ab)" then he can play it. And he has probably played it before without knowing he was playing a Bdim.

It's a personal choice that I don't like to learn by ear, which comes from not liking to play other people's songs like they played them. But back to what I said earlier, and closer to topic, that doesn't mean I think I am better than someone else because they never learned theory. I just have that "tool" in my bag.
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#455875 - 02/05/18 05:25 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: eddie1261]
Registered: 01/29/18
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Loc: Michigan
ZUrlocker Offline
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Loc: Michigan
I have zero formal musical training but I have managed to become reasonably proficient (D level) at 3 chord rock and blues on guitar and bass. I know one scale (pentatonic, ok so maybe that's 2 scales Pentatonic minor and Pentatonic major!). But I have learned enough that I can play and write songs. If you want to make music, especially with others, it is useful to understand the basics of musical language, like chords, keys, what I-IV-V means, etc. But the concepts are not that hard.
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#455893 - 02/05/18 06:32 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: ZUrlocker]
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eddie1261 Online   content
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And you probably play more scales than the pentatonic without knowing you are playing them.
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I will continue to post in the songwriters forum but will pretty much be keeping my opinions to myself as far as the off topic forum goes.

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#455894 - 02/05/18 06:38 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: eddie1261]
Registered: 01/29/18
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Loc: Michigan
ZUrlocker Offline
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Only by accident!
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#455904 - 02/05/18 10:04 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: eddie1261]
Registered: 11/19/17
Posts: 34
Loc: uk
duncanwhyte Offline
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Posts: 34
Loc: uk
I expect any musical training techniques could be put into biab as an option. So the numbering system could easily work alongside chords, and be voiced as well, whilst you are learning the song. Such auto familiarisation would lead to acquiring a worthwhile skill.
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#455944 - 02/06/18 05:22 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: eddie1261]
Registered: 07/12/00
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Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
Matt Finley Online   content
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In case you didn’t know, BIAB can display chords using Roman numerals, or Nashville notation. You can have the numbers.
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#456107 - 02/06/18 09:10 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: eddie1261]
Registered: 10/08/15
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Loc: Philippines
Trygve Larsen Offline
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Loc: Philippines
Funny and interesting tread. I have not played any instrument for a very long time. But when I was younger, I used to play Trumpet, guitar, bass, and simple piano. After starting with BiaB i have not played anything, except making/arranging songs in BiaB. I really love BiaB. When I was young and listen to music, I always dreamed about making something similar. And now I can. By using BiaB... I actually stil have a trumpet, a keyboard and a USB Wind instrument. It is just that I am to lazy to start playing again I guess. Or, it is just to much more easy for me to work on stuff in BiaB.
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#456555 - 02/08/18 11:22 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: eddie1261]
Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 837
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jcspro40 Offline
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I am a Solid D with decades of live playing under me belt....and I can not see anyone without at LEAST a grasp of chord progressions / styles using BiaB to good effect....IMHO....
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#456614 - 02/09/18 08:40 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: eddie1261]
Registered: 05/15/15
Posts: 792
Loc: St. Petersburg , FL
Islansoul Offline
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Registered: 05/15/15
Posts: 792
Loc: St. Petersburg , FL
Originally Posted By: eddie1261
This software provides a great opportunity for people to write songs even if they don't play, so I wonder 2 things. Which group do you fit in?

A. I have had zero music education in my life.
B. I do not play an instrument. All my songs are 100% software created.
C. I play an instrument but not all that well.
D. I play at a fairly proficient level.
E. I am a monster player.

And the second question is for only people who are in group A.

If you have had zero music training, how do you know what to enter into the chord sheet page to create your songs?

When I said zero music training, I meant zero. Like if you don't know that there are 12 keys, how do you know what to put in on bar 1?

This question grew from someone asking me about the software. She said "Oh that's cheating. If that's all that takes ANYBODY can write songs."

So I invited her over. Sat her at the computer. Started Real band. Got her to the chord entry page, and said "Go. Write a song if it's that easy."

She: "What do I do here?"
Me; "Enter your chord progression."
She: "What's a chord?"
Me: "What do you mean what's a chord? You said anybody could do this. Even with no music skills."

And that ended the discussion. (And I likely will never see her again. LOL!)

It is hard for people who play or have played, and/or had training either in school or on stage, to understand that we speak in terms that contain implied knowledge. To tell someone "A major chord is 1-3-5." evokes the question "What's a 1? What's a 3? What's a 5?" WE know that it means the steps of a scale, which would then evoke the question "What's a scale?"

So, again, I am just curious. The people I know here who have been around a while, I know your level of experience and education, but some of the newer names or just people with whom I have never interacted, I am curious to know your music education and experience level, if you read, etc....


I was just about to post a question similar to this. In the steel pan world, most of the players are taught using the rote system. For anyone here who does not know what that means, the rote system is a system where the player is tough strictly by observation, aural communication, and hand guidance (the band leader will come up to the player and move the hands to show which note to play). These people have no musical training, music theory, sight reading skills, or composition skills. This is not just the players but the band leaders and arrangers. Yes, most of the arrangers or band leaders do not have any musical knowledge and somehow they are able to create some very complicated pieces whether an original or just a steel band arrangement. I would say that the players and band leaders/ arrangers are A when it comes to musical education, but E when it comes to playing, but there are steel bands and player, mainly in the states who can read sheet music and understand music theory. As for me, I would say that I'm a C-D with the steel pan, but I don't know much complex theory and I did go to school for music under music production.

I am going to post some videos of famous Panorama tunes for you all to showcase what A level musical knowledge but E playing looks like. Panorama is the biggest carnival musical event in Trinada and Tobago where the steel pan was founded. Each band made up of hundreds of people in the large band category, play a new piece arranged for that band each year for a chance to win $10,000.


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#456641 - 02/09/18 01:07 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: Islansoul]
Registered: 05/24/05
Posts: 2558
Loc: Sterling, Va
raymb1 Offline
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There are too many examples to count of musicians who play by rote. There are still certain things one has to have some musical knowledge to do. Like Eddie said, how can you enter a chord if you don't know what a chord is? What is a quarter note, what is a quarter note rest, etc...........? You can't play with a band that uses charts to play without knowing how to read. Count Basie's band didn't have music on their stands but they had all the charts memorized. So many instances where one has to have some musical knowledge.
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PG Music News
With Band-in-a-Box®, Making Music Has Never Been Easier!


We came across this recent post, Music Making Software: Record, Edit, Create and Share Your Own Songs, which includes Band-in-a-Box® in their list of software you'll need to record and edit your own songs!

One of our favourite products, and one that doesn’t seem to come up much in discussions about music making software, is Band-In-A-Box from PG Music. This is probably the longest established and certainly one of the most popular music making software packages of all time. Already packed with features, the latest version has added functions that in our opinion make this an essential buy for musicians in any genre, for keyboard players, guitarists, singers, in fact any musician looking for an outstanding tool to make the most of their creative ideas.
-www.musicrepo.com

The Download Manager - Band-in-a-Box® for Windows

The "Download Manager" within Band-in-a-Box® for Windows is a great tool to confirm or help with the installation of your Band-in-a-Box® for Windows program!

What does the Download Manager do?
Automatically installs Band-in-a-Box® content (RealTracks, RealDrums, etc.) in the background, so you don't have to sit there the whole time! It can also confirm that you've completely installed your purchase.

How do you use it?
Within the program, go to Help | Utilities | Run Download/Install Manager now. Using your activation code, the program will analyze the installation folders, and list anything that still needs to be downloaded and installed.

Learn more about the Download Manager with this tutorial, or check out the topic within the Online Manual.

Band-in-a-Box® for Windows Online Manual - Chord List & Shortcuts

Visit the Chord List of our Online Manual, and you'll see all the chords that can be used within the program! The list includes a few Tricky Chords and Shortcut Chords that you may find useful too!

Tricky Chords:
C5b This is "C flat 5." It is spelled this way to avoid confusion.
C2, C5, C4, C69, C7alt, Cm7#5
You can type C-7 for Cm7 (i.e. use the minus sign) or C7-9 for C7b9.

Shortcut Chords
If you enter a lot of songs, you will appreciate these shortcut keys.
J = Maj7
H = m7b5 (H stands for Half diminished)
D = dim
S = 7sus

There's even information on how to add your own chord shortcuts - check it out!

Video Request Answered - Creating Intros, Bridges, and Endings in Band-in-a-Box®

Check out the newest support video created by Kent that explains how to create intros, bridges, and endings in Band-in-a-Box®! Click here to view...

The Band-in-a-Box® SongPicker Feature

If you have a folder of songs that you'd always like easy access to within Band-in-a-Box, make sure you familiarize yourself with The SongPicker feature, which access the folder that you choose and lock it to!

Access the SongPicker by clicking on the [Song] button next to the title of the song within the main screen of Band-in-a-Box. The first time the SongPicker is opened, you can choose the folder to use to create the list by selecting [Change] and navigating to your preferred directory. Once chosen, select [OK - Make Song List], and Band-in-a-Box does the rest... the next time you click on [Song], you'll be taken directly to your preferred folder!

Learn even more about this feature within Chapter 5 of our Online Manual, here.

Just Launched - The FAQ and Knowledge Base Forum!

If you have a question (or questions!) about Band-in-a-Box®, PowerTracks, RealBand®, or any other PG Music Inc. product - whether it be technical support or pre-sales, there's now an easy one-stop spot to find the answer - our FAQ and Knowledge Base Forum!

Don't want to read through the 600+ posts? Use the Search FAQ option, and you can choose your key search terms to locate the topic and answer you're looking for!

Common pre-sales questions about our products, ordering, and delivery:
Pre-Sales

Technical support & troubleshooting by product:
Band-in-a-Box® for Windows
Band-in-a-Box® for Mac
RealBand® for Windows
PowerTracks Pro® Audio for Windows
Other Products

There's even a Request New FAQs forum, if you didn't see your question answered anywhere!

Over 190 Saxophone RealTracks for Band-in-a-Box®!

Today's the day we say "Happy Birthday" to Adolphe Sax, the creator of the Saxophone!
(Adolphe was born November 6, 1814 - 32 years later he patended his saxophone creation!)

We have more than 190 Saxophone RealTracks available for Band-in-a-Box with the following RealTracks Sets - review the complete list here.

Check our our Saxophonist programs for Windows:
The Jazz Saxophonist
The Rock Saxophonist

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