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In one of my other topics that I made about a week ago, someone had mentioned that they typically had lyrics first before they had the sound.
Now I am curious what everyone else's methods are. Do you use sheet music and write out what you want to do first? Do you jam by yourself or with others and write down chords as you play them, then apply lyrics (if at all) to them later? Or do you start with lyrics first and work on the sound to match later? Or perhaps something else?
I'd love to know!
Cheers,
Ember
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Hi Ember,
Sometimes I write lyrics for a first verse and/or chorus and sometimes a complete first draft of lyrics before massaging the words to fit a chord progression and melody. This is where my writing those 150 words of sense-bound prose that I mentioned in your other thread is very useful.
Sometimes I set a drum beat going in BIAB and write lyrics against the rhythm.
Occasionally I'll find a style that I like in BIAB, add chords and write lyrics to fit the chord progression while it plays over and over.
I rarely write a melody, or melody and chords, and try to fit lyrics to that melody.
When I've created a first draft of a complete song, music and lyrics, I then work on how I can strengthen what I've got. During this phase of the process, some of my creations change substantially, some only change slightly.
Regards,
Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2024
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Hi, Ember !:))
Usually I put the tune together
first and then the lyrics and
being a composer/songwriter
you´ll always have the option
of altering either the melody
or the lyrics if needed !
I must admit that i seldom
alter the tune after having finished
it, then I turn to the lyrics
and in those exceptional places
if I bang my head in the wall
I have the freedom of altering either
the tune or the lyrics !
Cheers
Dani
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I write almost everything I have written, while I'm driving. That is usually when my mind is the calmest.
My wife has an old check register that she says she can never get rid of. A lot of time, when a song was complete in my head, I would dictate the lyrics to her and she would write them down while I drove. I write in my head, and I write lyrics and melody at the same time. The melody is what allows me to sing the song over and over in my head, until I feel it is what I want. By the time I pick up my guitar, I will have sung it to myself thirty or forty times. I really don't know why this method works for me, but thankfully, it does. I have never worked with a cowriter for that reason. How do you tell someone else what you hear in your head.
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For us most of the time the music comes first. I come up with an idea on guitar and will send it over to my friend in Germany who writes the lyrics. She develops the melody first by vamping along to the track I sent her, and once she has a melody she starts developing the lyrics. She has a book full of lyric ideas she draws from, she writes everything down, or it might be something the just pops into her head while watching the news, etc.
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The rule is that there is no rule.
I think I'm correct in suggesting that Elton John write the melody after Bernie Taupin wrote the lyrics
however
The Bee Gees wrote the lyrics after writing the melody.
Horses-for-courses, I guess.
BIAB & RB2024 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
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I (Bud) write the lyrics with some semblance of meter  often running lines by Janice to ask if they “work” and are as she says “singable.” I then give them to her with suggestions of genre/groove and only occasionally with specific chord suggestions. Many lines, hooks, etc, come when mountain biking or hiking. She then sits with her guitar and does her magic. She will tweak the lyric to fit her phrasing ideas, etc. The only exception is a 12 or 8 bar blues for which I’ll create the chord structure (which is typically formulaic for that genre) and then she will just riff my lyric (a bit like an instrumental solo). Bud
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Mostly I am messing around with a progression on the guitar or in BB and something clicks.... then I throw a line of lyric on it.... things get progressively worse as I add more lyrics, and sometimes I end up with a song.
Other times, I have a lyricist I work with on occasion and I'll get a fairly complete song lyric from them. I slice and dice it up and throw in some melody and occasionally that, after being bounced back and forth a few times, ends up as a song.
So I guess it all depends.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Songwriting
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OP
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Hi Ember,
Sometimes I write lyrics for a first verse and/or chorus and sometimes a complete first draft of lyrics before massaging the words to fit a chord progression and melody. This is where my writing those 150 words of sense-bound prose that I mentioned in your other thread is very useful. It all makes perfect sense now! I already thought that was a pretty unique and neat way of writing, but after reading the rest of your post here all the puzzle pieces are really connecting. Thanks for sharing!
Cheers,
Ember
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Songwriting
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PG Music Staff
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OP
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I must admit that i seldom
alter the tune after having finished
it, then I turn to the lyrics
and in those exceptional places
if I bang my head in the wall
I have the freedom of altering either
the tune or the lyrics !
You say you rarely alter a tune after having finished it. Can you provide some examples of times with your songwriting where after completion you felt the need to go back and tweak it?
Cheers,
Ember
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Songwriting
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Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 2,945
PG Music Staff
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OP
PG Music Staff
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 2,945 |
I write almost everything I have written, while I'm driving. That is usually when my mind is the calmest.
My wife has an old check register that she says she can never get rid of. A lot of time, when a song was complete in my head, I would dictate the lyrics to her and she would write them down while I drove. I write in my head, and I write lyrics and melody at the same time. The melody is what allows me to sing the song over and over in my head, until I feel it is what I want. By the time I pick up my guitar, I will have sung it to myself thirty or forty times. I really don't know why this method works for me, but thankfully, it does. I have never worked with a cowriter for that reason. How do you tell someone else what you hear in your head. That's really useful. It's kind of like repeating it to yourself over and over so that you can't forget it. I was always curious how when inspiration struck how people got their ideas down on paper and recorded. Repeating it all in your head to prevent forgetting important pieces of your song seems like a handy way of handling not always being able to write it down right away. Thanks for sharing!
Cheers,
Ember
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Songwriting
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Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 2,945
PG Music Staff
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OP
PG Music Staff
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 2,945 |
For us most of the time the music comes first. I come up with an idea on guitar and will send it over to my friend in Germany who writes the lyrics. She develops the melody first by vamping along to the track I sent her, and once she has a melody she starts developing the lyrics. She has a book full of lyric ideas she draws from, she writes everything down, or it might be something the just pops into her head while watching the news, etc.
That sounds so cool! I have to wonder what a book full of lyric ideas looks like. I'm imagining a scrape book for some reason. 
Cheers,
Ember
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Songwriting
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OP
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The rule is that there is no rule.
The first rule of Fight Club is there are no rules, am I right? All pop culture references aside, at the end of the day I suppose so long as the song gets written the method ultimately doesn't matter, so long as the music gets out there for people to enjoy!
Cheers,
Ember
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Songwriting
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PG Music Staff
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I (Bud) write the lyrics with some semblance of meter often running lines by Janice to ask if they “work” and are as she says “singable.” I then give them to her with suggestions of genre/groove and only occasionally with specific chord suggestions. Many lines, hooks, etc, come when mountain biking or hiking. She then sits with her guitar and does her magic. She will tweak the lyric to fit her phrasing ideas, etc. The only exception is a 12 or 8 bar blues for which I’ll create the chord structure (which is typically formulaic for that genre) and then she will just riff my lyric (a bit like an instrumental solo). Bud I am curious to know what "singable" means to Janice. Though that may be why you put it in quotations.  It sounds like you guys have a true partnership when it comes to writing songs. That's a rare quality. Often times, from my personal experience, writing tends to be fairly personal -- especially when it's more emotion based and less technical -- so writing projects as a collaboration can lead to some tensions. Sounds like that's not an issue here! You guys seem to really compliment each other, and it sounds like you guys really know what works for you both Thanks for sharing.
Cheers,
Ember
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Songwriting
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OP
PG Music Staff
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Mostly I am messing around with a progression on the guitar or in BB and something clicks.... then I throw a line of lyric on it.... things get progressively worse as I add more lyrics, and sometimes I end up with a song.
Other times, I have a lyricist I work with on occasion and I'll get a fairly complete song lyric from them. I slice and dice it up and throw in some melody and occasionally that, after being bounced back and forth a few times, ends up as a song.
So I guess it all depends. Throwing in a bunch of ingredients in until you get the desired outcome. Love it. I really dig that you also work with a lyricist too. Well, that was very interesting to read! Thanks for sharing everyone. It's super cool to see where all the similarities lie, and how people write based on their own personal styles.
Cheers,
Ember
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Songwriting
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Posts: 547
Journeyman
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I've written many different ways but what works best for me is doing lyrics first with a basic melody in my head. Sometimes I will also use my acoustic guitar to get a basic chord structure going at the same time. I usually start with a chorus or hook idea. Once I have it pretty well in place I will start on the verses and then add a bridge if needed. If I haven't already I will then use my acoustic guitar to figure out what chords fit the tune and plug those into BIAB. By this time I usually have a rough idea of what style the song is going to be so I go into the style picker and narrow it down by genre or sub genre and tempo. After I find a style demo I think will fit the song I let it generate and see if it works. I may try many different styles to see what works best or I may just change out different real tracks to create a unique style of my own. Lately I've been writing a lot of music to prompts or to spec for licensing opportunities. I find the process I listed above very good for this kind of writing. It tends to be more streamlined and organized (at least for me) and allows me to pump out a tune rather quickly. I wrote and recorded my latest tune "Take Me Away" using this method in about 4 hours.
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I (Bud) write the lyrics with some semblance of meter often running lines by Janice to ask if they “work” and are as she says “singable.” I then give them to her with suggestions of genre/groove and only occasionally with specific chord suggestions. Many lines, hooks, etc, come when mountain biking or hiking. She then sits with her guitar and does her magic. She will tweak the lyric to fit her phrasing ideas, etc. The only exception is a 12 or 8 bar blues for which I’ll create the chord structure (which is typically formulaic for that genre) and then she will just riff my lyric (a bit like an instrumental solo). Bud I am curious to know what "singable" means to Janice. Though that may be why you put it in quotations. It sounds like you guys have a true partnership when it comes to writing songs. That's a rare quality. Often times, from my personal experience, writing tends to be fairly personal -- especially when it's more emotion based and less technical -- so writing projects as a collaboration can lead to some tensions. Sounds like that's not an issue here! You guys seem to really compliment each other, and it sounds like you guys really know what works for you both Thanks for sharing. Thanks Ember, we've been retired for for a while, married for 36 years and spend virtually all our time together everyday...so it's essential that we compliment one another! We used to race mountain bikes but now days we mostly "just ride" a lot and that combined with our love of nature is a great stimulant for us -- for me to think of lyrics and Janice always has melodies, etc., in her head...no matter what's happening but particularly when hiking and biking. I just asked her and she says that "singable" means that she can feel it - that the lyric seems natural to her. From my perspective it means that she can envision a melody for the lyric that will allow her to best employ her "bent note" style of phrasing. She likes to slide her phrasing around a lot. Many but not everybody, like this. One reviewer once critically referred to it as too much "vocal dancing." She tends to use this approach on all genres but more so on blues. The best and perhaps most extreme version of it is our song Soul Stealer. So singable means a lyric for which a melody comes quickly that allows her to feel that she can put her notion of soul into it. If it passes that test the genre becomes somewhat incidental. Pardon the ramble...not a great answer to your question... Cheers Bud
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For songs that have lyrics, lyrics are first almost always. For instrumentals, I have less structure.
The only songwriting training I have ever had was Pat Pattison’s class from Berklee. That class is 90% about writing lyrics and song form. Maybe even more than that. I credit Noel96 from here for turning me on to that class. The other resource that I continually mine which is more song form and chord/melody structure is Matt Blick’s Tickets To Write website which catalogs all of the tricks and tactics the Beatles used in very digestible ways. I’m not ashamed to admit that I have gone to that well many times for inspiration.
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I've written many different ways but what works best for me is doing lyrics first with a basic melody in my head. Sometimes I will also use my acoustic guitar to get a basic chord structure going at the same time. I usually start with a chorus or hook idea. Once I have it pretty well in place I will start on the verses and then add a bridge if needed. If I haven't already I will then use my acoustic guitar to figure out what chords fit the tune and plug those into BIAB. By this time I usually have a rough idea of what style the song is going to be so I go into the style picker and narrow it down by genre or sub genre and tempo. After I find a style demo I think will fit the song I let it generate and see if it works. I may try many different styles to see what works best or I may just change out different real tracks to create a unique style of my own. Lately I've been writing a lot of music to prompts or to spec for licensing opportunities. I find the process I listed above very good for this kind of writing. It tends to be more streamlined and organized (at least for me) and allows me to pump out a tune rather quickly. I wrote and recorded my latest tune "Take Me Away" using this method in about 4 hours. That's all super informative. I am sure that others can find that information very useful. Starting with a hook is a great idea. It's almost like a writing prompt, and then just building from that!
Cheers,
Ember
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