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#455631 - 02/04/18 01:34 PM [Songwriting] Dissonances
Registered: 02/04/18
Posts: 11
Loc: Berlin
MusicHeart Offline
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Registered: 02/04/18
Posts: 11
Loc: Berlin
My Band-in-a-Box generates dissonant notes (outside of the scale or chord). Anybody knows a cure?
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BIAB PlusPAK 2018, Windows 7 64-Bit, i7, 16GB, 2*500GB SSD +

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#455682 - 02/04/18 09:10 PM [Songwriting] Re: Dissonances [Re: MusicHeart]
Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 18085
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
Matt Finley Offline
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We would need to know more. Dissonance is in the ear of the beholder, and very much genre-dependent. Can you tell us what BIAB style you are using, and/or which RealTrack name and numbers?

If, for example, you always hear a #9 played in a classical or folk track on a major chord, then that could be a bug that should be reported. In a jazz track, probably not.

But there are a few settings, and a trick or two. Tell us more.
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BIAB 2019 Win Audiophile; [& 2018 Mac UltraPak]. Software: Cakewalk, Adobe Audition, Ozone, Encore; Win 10 64 Pro. Hardware: custom i7, 16 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Focusrite 18i20(2), TCE Finalizer, Behringer X-Touch, Adam sub & monitors.

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#455701 - 02/05/18 02:44 AM [Songwriting] Re: Dissonances [Re: Matt Finley]
Registered: 02/04/18
Posts: 11
Loc: Berlin
MusicHeart Offline
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Registered: 02/04/18
Posts: 11
Loc: Berlin
Thanks for your reply. I'm a new user with Band-in-a-Box PlusPAK 2018, Windows 7 64-Bit.

Here's how it started: I loaded "SalsaAfroCuban68Folk_114_Demo", typed or changed some chords and played around a bit. Unfortunately I heard lots of dissonant chords, with notes out of the scale. For example: I typed G7 and the MIDI piano played G7#5 instead, the marimba (MIDI as well) played false notes (e over a G-chord) etc. and had to correct them manually in the note editor. Generating a new melody produced more "mistakes" and generating a real track soloist even more. I tried using only simple triads and got significantly less wrong notes but even in the key of C and a straight forward rhythm (with no syncopation) I could still hear some flats or sharps that shouldn't have been generated.

That's what I tried already, starting with MIDI only:

For the MIDI Bass-Track:
Preferences/Harmony/Harmony Settings: "Change Harmony with New Chords" checked
Song Settings: "Force Song to Simpler Arrangements" checked
Song Settings/Overrides: "Force to Simple Arrangement" (for new songs) checked
(in case related) Play: "User Playalong feature" unchecked and "Wizard uses "Smart" notes" unchecked
Bass/Track Settings: "Force track to simple arrangement: Bass" checked
Bass/Track Settings/Set Natural Arrangement: Disabled for Bass track
Stylemaker/Edit current Style in Stylemaker/Bass: changed the Relative Weight of patterns with passing and chromatic notes to: 1.

No success. The bass still generates "chromatic approach" notes or similar (for example on an Em7-chord it "walks" through a #g instead of a natural g 'cause the next chord is A7). Re-generate and play doesn't really help.

On other tracks I have even more problems (more notes). For example I change from F#m7 to Gdim7 and the organ keeps holding the F#m7 which sound horrible over the Gdim7.

Would be very thankful for an answer.
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#455709 - 02/05/18 03:35 AM [Songwriting] Re: Dissonances [Re: MusicHeart]
Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 14127
Loc: Australia
Noel96 Offline
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In case it helps, here's the style that MusicHeart is using.

****** Song Summary *************
Title: SalsaAfroCuban68Folk_114_Demo

File:-AFRFK68.MGU

Key=Bm , Tempo 114, Length (m:s)=3:53
No intro. 36 bar chorus, from bar 1 to bar 36. Repeat x3 choruses
Melody has 694 notes, Melody harmony is < no harmony >(0)
No Soloist track.
Song is saved with Volume, Pan, Reverb, Chorus, Bank0,

Style is -AFRFK68.STY (Afro Folk 6/8 - Afro Cuban 6/8)

Style MIDI Instruments are : Finger Electric Bass (34), Acoustic Piano (1), Marimba (13),
RealDrums in Song: SalsaAfroCuban68Folk: a: SalsaAfroCuban68Folkb: SalsaAfroCuban68Folk
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#455741 - 02/05/18 08:04 AM [Songwriting] Re: Dissonances [Re: MusicHeart]
Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 18085
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
Matt Finley Offline
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Registered: 07/12/00
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Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
MusicHeart, one of the first things to do (that everybody forgets) is to enter the key of the song. BIAB makes intelligent decisions based on that. If it's 'wrong' it can lead the program to do odd choices. Try that, and regenerate.
_________________________
BIAB 2019 Win Audiophile; [& 2018 Mac UltraPak]. Software: Cakewalk, Adobe Audition, Ozone, Encore; Win 10 64 Pro. Hardware: custom i7, 16 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Focusrite 18i20(2), TCE Finalizer, Behringer X-Touch, Adam sub & monitors.

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#455929 - 02/06/18 03:48 AM [Songwriting] Re: Dissonances [Re: Matt Finley]
Registered: 02/04/18
Posts: 11
Loc: Berlin
MusicHeart Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/04/18
Posts: 11
Loc: Berlin
Thanks for your reply. Key of the song? Is that simple? I mean I tried a lots of styles and all of them generated more or less dissonances but I can't remember if I changed the key of the song. In any case I wouldn't like to let BIAB make "intelligent decisions", I woud like to hear what I have in my head. Using entertainer-keyboards for 20 years I can't remember ever heard a wrong note, unless you program an own style which uses passing notes too. Well, I'll try it with "entering the key and regenerate" and hopefully it helps.

By the way: You're a really great Music maker!


Edited by MusicHeart (02/06/18 04:00 AM)
_________________________
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You can find my Music at:

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#455943 - 02/06/18 05:17 AM [Songwriting] Re: Dissonances [Re: MusicHeart]
Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 18085
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
Matt Finley Offline
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Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
Thanks. There are also checkboxes for the song, and for globally, to choose Simple chords. That may also give you what you want, now that you’ve described your goal. Also, you will want to turn off Natural Arrangement for the song, or globally. This last assumes you have BIAB 2017 or later.
_________________________
BIAB 2019 Win Audiophile; [& 2018 Mac UltraPak]. Software: Cakewalk, Adobe Audition, Ozone, Encore; Win 10 64 Pro. Hardware: custom i7, 16 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Focusrite 18i20(2), TCE Finalizer, Behringer X-Touch, Adam sub & monitors.

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#455955 - 02/06/18 06:03 AM [Songwriting] Re: Dissonances [Re: Matt Finley]
Registered: 02/04/18
Posts: 11
Loc: Berlin
MusicHeart Offline
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Registered: 02/04/18
Posts: 11
Loc: Berlin
Thank you. In my second post I've listed my OS and BIAB version (2018) and what I've already tried to fix in various preferences and checkboxes. Most of the time I hear the "unwanted guests" (notes) right away and I fix them manually on the note editor. But for some of them I may have to use my headphones and listen very carefully or I have to check out the score in order to fix them. As soon as I'm back home I'll check your tips. All in all I'm very happy with BIAB and of course I'm thankful to have helpful People like you in the Forum!
_________________________
BIAB PlusPAK 2018, Windows 7 64-Bit, i7, 16GB, 2*500GB SSD +

You can find my Music at:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdjjpr_-B8llKxlwUDCf-Lw


and on your favourite Musicstore

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#456012 - 02/06/18 11:40 AM [Songwriting] Re: Dissonances [Re: MusicHeart]
Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 18085
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
Matt Finley Offline
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Posts: 18085
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Right, I don’t always go back to reread threads when they start getting longer.

Another example I’ve found (and Dr. Gannon doesn’t agree with my advice) is on dominant seventh chords. I will sometimes hear a flat 9 or sharp 9 when I want a natural 9. So in those cases I generally write the 9 chord to start with, so there is no chance for ambiguity.

Stuff like that.
_________________________
BIAB 2019 Win Audiophile; [& 2018 Mac UltraPak]. Software: Cakewalk, Adobe Audition, Ozone, Encore; Win 10 64 Pro. Hardware: custom i7, 16 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Focusrite 18i20(2), TCE Finalizer, Behringer X-Touch, Adam sub & monitors.

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#456017 - 02/06/18 11:58 AM [Songwriting] Re: Dissonances [Re: MusicHeart]
Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 6014
Guitarhacker Offline
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Posts: 6014
Indeed, the first thing I thought of was the key.

It defaults to C so if for example you are typing in chords from the key of Ab, you could certainly have some issues since BB is looking to the scale of C major to choose it's melody lines and chords to a great extent.

I made that mistake on a number of songs when I first started working with BB until I figured it out. So if you're working in Ab, just set the key signature to Ab and you'll be good PLUS.... if for some reason you find you have to change the key to ...lets say Db... all you do is change the key signature and it recalculates the entire song accurately in the new key.
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#456136 - 02/07/18 02:00 AM [Songwriting] Re: Dissonances [Re: Matt Finley]
Registered: 02/04/18
Posts: 11
Loc: Berlin
MusicHeart Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/04/18
Posts: 11
Loc: Berlin
Well, thank you, your tip helped a lot, but the problem didn't dissapeared completely. I set the key of the song and whenever I see strange notes I go to the affected bars and set the key for each of them. It gets better, sometimes perfect, but it's not 100% reliable. The good thing is that even RealTracks get better.

What do you mean "you write the 9 chord to start with". Where do you write it?
And who is Dr. Gannon?
_________________________
BIAB PlusPAK 2018, Windows 7 64-Bit, i7, 16GB, 2*500GB SSD +

You can find my Music at:

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and on your favourite Musicstore

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#456140 - 02/07/18 02:14 AM [Songwriting] Re: Dissonances [Re: Guitarhacker]
Registered: 02/04/18
Posts: 11
Loc: Berlin
MusicHeart Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/04/18
Posts: 11
Loc: Berlin
Thanks for your reply. I do change the key signature whenever ist necessary and it works perfect when the song has only triads or maybe a seventh cord. Things get complicated with jazz chords and especially when the transition from one key to another lasts one or two bars with complex chords. I keep searching. It would be nice if can tell me your settings.


Edited by MusicHeart (02/07/18 02:28 AM)
_________________________
BIAB PlusPAK 2018, Windows 7 64-Bit, i7, 16GB, 2*500GB SSD +

You can find my Music at:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdjjpr_-B8llKxlwUDCf-Lw


and on your favourite Musicstore

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#456142 - 02/07/18 02:38 AM [Songwriting] Re: Dissonances [Re: Guitarhacker]
Registered: 02/04/18
Posts: 11
Loc: Berlin
MusicHeart Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/04/18
Posts: 11
Loc: Berlin
[quote=Guitarhacker]

I've heard your Music. Nice. The background instruments sound great. I would maybe give a bit more highs to the strumming guitars (+1 or 2 dB at 10kHz) and maybe a bit of "air" (12-14kHz) to the cymbals or drums. But this is a matter of taste. On the male voice I would give some more bass (around 125Hz), reduce the mids (about 3kHz), route it through a smooth de-esser and gently tune it through autotune or similar. The female voice needs a bit 250Hz, smooth de-essing and less 3khz again. This would be my taste.
_________________________
BIAB PlusPAK 2018, Windows 7 64-Bit, i7, 16GB, 2*500GB SSD +

You can find my Music at:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdjjpr_-B8llKxlwUDCf-Lw


and on your favourite Musicstore

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#456176 - 02/07/18 06:01 AM [Songwriting] Re: Dissonances [Re: MusicHeart]
Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 6014
Guitarhacker Offline
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Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 6014
Originally Posted By: MusicHeart
Thanks for your reply. I do change the key signature whenever ist necessary and it works perfect when the song has only triads or maybe a seventh cord. Things get complicated with jazz chords and especially when the transition from one key to another lasts one or two bars with complex chords. I keep searching. It would be nice if can tell me your settings.


Ahh yes... indeed. The key signature is important but if you still have issues and want to try something else, somewhere in the menus is a function called reduce complexity of the chords or something like that. I know it's there because I've seen it but don't often have need for it so I can't tell you right off where to find it. However, it takes the 9th chords and other chords that are jazz chords and reduces them to a more basic chord. Instead of a C9th you will get a simple C chord. Those 7th #5ths and 9ths can throw the chords kind of out of whack with the melody being composed.

Just another option to investigate to solve the issue.


edit: oh... and another option.... costly but it works. Melodyne Editor. The full version not the "Essential" version. Since it's polyphonic, it can grab the notes in the chord. Simply move or delete the "wrong" ones. I have used this several times on some chords that had "wrong notes" in them in BB/RB. It worked extremely well on removing the notes without leaving artifacts. Not so well at moving the notes however. I think the version I have is an earlier, perhaps the first poly version so they didn't have it all worked out like they do now. The version I have works amazingly well on mono melodies like a single instrument like sax or a human voice or bass. I have used it to fix many, many parts in a song that needed to be edited. Also superb for fixing timing issues in audio tracks.


Edited by Guitarhacker (02/07/18 06:08 AM)
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#456184 - 02/07/18 06:45 AM [Songwriting] Re: Dissonances [Re: Guitarhacker]
Registered: 02/04/18
Posts: 11
Loc: Berlin
MusicHeart Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/04/18
Posts: 11
Loc: Berlin
Thanks for the tips. I can fix the wrong notes in my DAW too, but it takes time. I hope people in PG-Music work to fix these issues. Keep on makin' good Music!
_________________________
BIAB PlusPAK 2018, Windows 7 64-Bit, i7, 16GB, 2*500GB SSD +

You can find my Music at:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdjjpr_-B8llKxlwUDCf-Lw


and on your favourite Musicstore

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#456262 - 02/07/18 11:17 AM [Songwriting] Re: Dissonances [Re: MusicHeart]
Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 18085
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
Matt Finley Offline
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Dr. Gannon is Peter Gannon, the PG in PG Music. Company founder, excellent musician, and he drops into the forums regularly.

What I meant is, I write a ninth chord instead of a dominant seventh. Ex. D9 instead of D7. If I write D7, I might hear D7b9 or D7#9 or D7add9. But by writing D9, I hear D with a natural 9. However, I run a slight risk of hearing a major seventh...
_________________________
BIAB 2019 Win Audiophile; [& 2018 Mac UltraPak]. Software: Cakewalk, Adobe Audition, Ozone, Encore; Win 10 64 Pro. Hardware: custom i7, 16 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Focusrite 18i20(2), TCE Finalizer, Behringer X-Touch, Adam sub & monitors.

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#467460 - 04/16/18 04:23 AM [Songwriting] Re: Dissonances [Re: MusicHeart]
Registered: 02/04/18
Posts: 11
Loc: Berlin
MusicHeart Offline
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Registered: 02/04/18
Posts: 11
Loc: Berlin
Thanks, that's a great tip! I understand BIAB more day by day and do my choices accordingly.
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You can find my Music at:

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Moderator:  Andrew - PG Music, PeterGannon 
PG Music News
Notation Enhancements in Band-in-a-Box® 2019 for Windows!

There are Notation Enhancements in the NEW Band-in-a-Box® 2019 for Windows! These include:
•A new button in the Print Options dialog which lets you quickly print a "chords only" fake sheet. You can also access this from the right-click menu on the chord sheet.
•A new track type (Drums) is now available for The Melody and Soloist tracks.
•Clicking close to a stave line will put a note on the stave line instead of between stave lines. (Previously, you had to click extremely close to a stave line to insert a note on The line.)
•Double-clicking on the Standard mode Notation window (or on the time line in Editable or Staff Roll mode) plays the song from the current time location. Previously, it played the song from the beginning of the current bar.
•Holding down the [Ctrl] key and pressing the zoom in/out buttons results in finest possible incremental adjustment in size.
•In The Notation Windows Options dialog, The clefs split point asterisk indicates that C5* is middle C.
•Pressing The space bar plays the song from the current time location, not the current bar.
•The clefs split point can be set by the spin controls.
•The right-click menu in the Editable or Staff Roll mode Notation window has an option to change the current beat resolution. Previously, the only way to do this was to right-click on the time line.
•There's a keystroke entry notation mode - the 'N' mode, which lets you enter a melody entirely using keystrokes. The keystrokes are N to enter a note, up/down cursor to change its pitch, and left/right cursor to move the time line.
•You can now edit any track in the Event List Editor. When The dialog opens, it will show you the MIDI data in the current Notation track.
•You can quickly enter forced accidentals from the right-click menu.

We talk about these new features within our Band-in-a-Box® 2019 for Windows®! New Features, RealTracks, and other content! video:
25:45 - New Features: Easy Entering of Notation with the 'N' Key
36:48 - Change Beat Resolution From the Right-Click Menu
37:15 - Easier Entry of Notes on Lines
37:42 - Asterisk to Indicate Middle C on & Spin Controls
37:53 - Force Accidental from the Right-Click Menu
38:01 - Edit Any Track in the Event List
38:09 - Keystroke Note Entry Mode 'N' for Faster Note Entry
38:28 - Print Chords Only Fake Sheet
38:32 - More Control of Notation Size

Rather read about it?
-Band-in-a-Box® 2019 for Windows® Upgrade Manual
-New Feature Summary - Notation Enhancements

The New Band-in-a-Box® 2019 for Windows SongPicker!

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-You can search songs that have similar chord progressions and/or melody fragments.
-Hotkey! ss+enter opens the SongPicker, ss2+enter opens the Recently Played Songs, etc.

Learn more about the updates with our New Features Video - we've made it easy to find the section you'll need:
2:55 - New Feature: Redesigned SongPicker
21:58 - New Features: SongPicker Enhancements
41:10 - Now Over 10,600 Titles in SongPicker

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RealBand 2019 Online and PDF Manuals Available!

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Band-in-a-Box® 2019 Online and PDF Manuals Available!

Visit our Online Manuals support page for access to the latest Band-in-a-Box® 2019 for Windows program manuals!

Band-in-a-Box® 2019 for Windows User's Guide: Online Manual | PDF Download
Band-in-a-Box® 2019 for Windows Upgrade Manual: Online Manual | PDF Download

Don't forget.... We're having a SALE on Band-in-a-Box® 2019 Upgrade purchases until December 31, 2018 - save over 40% when you purchase your Band-in-a-Box® 2019 for Windows Upgrade! Check out our Band-in-a-Box® packages page for all the purchase options available

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What does this mean? Faster hard drive transfer rates will enhance the program operations (faster time to generate tracks, reduced audio artifacts) and offer faster transfer speeds (typically up to 3x faster)!

It's a great time to order your UltraPAK or UltraPAK+ Upgrade... they're ON SALE until December 31st!

Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2019 for Windows® New Features!

Our "Band-in-a-Box® 2019 for Windows®! New Features, RealTracks, and other content!" video is now ready! Get to know all about the newest features in Band-in-a-Box® 2019: Click here to watch...

We have listed a table of contents for this video, you'll see it within the YouTube video description, or by visiting this forum post.

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Have you opened up your RealBand 2019 yet? You may notice that we've given it a fresh new look! In fact, there are now 3 different looks to RealBand.

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