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Just bought an audio dac, on reading up on this it states best results using Flac or wav so I was just wondering if I will get any benefit using it through the pc to enhance the sound of Real tracks etc.
And well it lead me to the question about the format we play and hear in biab ?.
P.S. Hope this is posted in the right place.
win 10 64 bit 16gb,i7 chip, ssd 500gb, m-audio air, ,Roland BK-7M, 1000,shure sm7b,sonar,acid,mixcraft, variety of plugins.Sample tank 3,Kontakt. TC Helicon Voicelive 3 2 . https://beatmaster1.bandcamp.com/releases
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FLAC uses compression but is supposed to be lossless. WAV files are uncompressed.
Your signature says you use a PC. Your BIAB therefore is either the audiophile version that uses WAV files of CD quality, or you have one of the ‘regular’ versions that uses WMA files. For a description of the difference, read my sticky post in the Tips and Tricks Forum.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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Matt
Thanks very much, that answers it all for me.
I am right on saying, when I render for my daw it is then wav ?.
Last edited by beatmaster; 08/21/18 07:24 PM.
win 10 64 bit 16gb,i7 chip, ssd 500gb, m-audio air, ,Roland BK-7M, 1000,shure sm7b,sonar,acid,mixcraft, variety of plugins.Sample tank 3,Kontakt. TC Helicon Voicelive 3 2 . https://beatmaster1.bandcamp.com/releases
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Beatmaster,
Yes, when rendered, BIAB tracks are rendered as wav. The wav is created by converting wma files. This conversion does not enhance the audio quality, it simply changes its format.
Regards,
Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2024
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That's great Noel thanks, wav is supposed to be when an audio dac shines.
Hopefully.
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DACs do a fine job with FLAC and WAV but the shine will depend on the content of the file. You can convert a 192MP3 to wav & it will still sounds like a 192 MP3.
A little research related..
"WMA stands for Windows Media Audio. It was first released in 1999 and has gone through several evolutions since then, all while keeping the same WMA name and extension. As you might expect, it’s a proprietary format created by Microsoft.
Not unlike AAC and OGG, WMA was meant to address some of the flaws in the MP3 compression method — and as such, WMA’s approach to compression is pretty similar to AAC and OGG. In other words, in terms of objective quality, WMA is better than MP3 .It also doesn’t offer any real benefits over AAC or OGG..."
BUT>>>>
"WMA stands for Windows Media Audio. We covered it above in the lossy compression section, but we mention it here because there’s a lossless alternative called WMA Lossless that uses the same extension. Confusing, I know.
Compared to FLAC and ALAC, WMA Lossless is the worst in terms of compression efficiency but only slightly. It’s a proprietary format so it’s no good for fans of open source software, but it is supported natively on both Windows and Mac systems.
The biggest issue with WMA Lossless is the limited hardware support. If you want lossless audio across multiple devices, you should stick with FLAC unless all of your devices are of the Windows variety."
I don't know if BIAB uses WMA Lossless. I've spent some time searching but there's no reference to WMA Lossless except as a rendering option.
Cheers
rayc
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Hi rayc
Thanks for posting, I have had a wee bit of time to get used to the dac and experiment, it is absolutely unbelievable on cd discs played through my arcam cd player.
The flac, mp3, and cd discs ripped to the pc and played through the pc to the audio dac, have a lot more presence and body to the music that I always remember getting from a good stack hi fi.
I am enjoying it, best thing I have bought in a long time to enhance my music, even going through the songs posted on the user showcase, doing an a to b comparison with a flick of a switch on the amp you hear a Big difference.
Last edited by beatmaster; 08/25/18 02:37 AM.
win 10 64 bit 16gb,i7 chip, ssd 500gb, m-audio air, ,Roland BK-7M, 1000,shure sm7b,sonar,acid,mixcraft, variety of plugins.Sample tank 3,Kontakt. TC Helicon Voicelive 3 2 . https://beatmaster1.bandcamp.com/releases
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Can we drop back a moment and make sure we are saying the same thing? What did you buy when you say audio dac? Digital to analog converter? Anything that plays digital files converts them to analog that you can hear.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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Matt No problem yes your pc has a dac, cd player has a dac, etc. But these are high class superior dacs. Here is what I bought hope this helps https://www.richersounds.com/camb-dacmagic-plus-b.html
win 10 64 bit 16gb,i7 chip, ssd 500gb, m-audio air, ,Roland BK-7M, 1000,shure sm7b,sonar,acid,mixcraft, variety of plugins.Sample tank 3,Kontakt. TC Helicon Voicelive 3 2 . https://beatmaster1.bandcamp.com/releases
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Thanks. I looked at that and read reviews. Aside from it doing enhanced stereo separation, I’m at a loss to understand technically how upsampling improves sound. I guess I’ll have to hear it.
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you should do that, I have listened to my fav cd discs for years.
And all been on good stack hi fi systems, I now hear instruments that I never heard on my so called top of the range systems I bought then.
win 10 64 bit 16gb,i7 chip, ssd 500gb, m-audio air, ,Roland BK-7M, 1000,shure sm7b,sonar,acid,mixcraft, variety of plugins.Sample tank 3,Kontakt. TC Helicon Voicelive 3 2 . https://beatmaster1.bandcamp.com/releases
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I'm a bit at a loss here. I run all my PC's sound through my MOTU 828MK3 audio interface. If I understand all of this correctly, the 828 would then handle all of the DAC...is this correct? Would the Cambridge unit be that much better?
Jeff
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Yes you are correct Jeff. The MOTU handles all of the DAC functions and is probably just as good as the Cambridge ones. However for anyone used to listening to audio from compressed format audio sources through a PC's built in soundcard I would think that it would be a revelation. 
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Yes you are correct Jeff. The MOTU handles all of the DAC functions and is probably just as good as the Cambridge ones. Good as Cambridge ..You are wrong. However for anyone used to listening to audio from compressed format audio sources through a PC's built in soundcard I would think that it would be a revelation. I have already stated that I own, and always have owned a good high end hi fi, so used to a high quality sound. More info here https://www.whathifi.com/advice/dacs-everything-you-need-to-know
Last edited by beatmaster; 08/26/18 01:32 AM.
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To kind of back up Beatmaster, I went to Axpona last year and learned a lot about DACs. Prism also makes some fine DACs if you have the money ($2500+). Expensive, but hearing a collection of familiar songs go from a notebook through that DAC and into nothing more than self powered 2 way monitors convinced me there was some kind of magic to it. http://www.prismsound.com/hifi/products_subs/dac1/dac1_home.php http://www.prismsound.com/hifi/reviews.php We have 3 DACs at work and they all sound better than any sound card I've heard to date.
Last edited by rharv; 08/26/18 02:28 AM.
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The first part of my reply was directed to Jeff's question. And I did say probably but it would be very difficult to prove either way IMHO. The second part was a general reply to others reading this thread and wondering what DACs were all about. It was not directed to you. 
Last edited by ryclark; 08/27/18 01:30 AM.
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ryclark
No problem I just did not want anyone reading the post thinking an audio dac would not improve pc sound, They are all equipped with usb connection now.
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A decent DAC will blow away most sound cards any day.
I'm not a believer in "Upsampling" - to work as describes it'd have to use an enhancer or exciter to replace the missing information to make it sound better.
I suppose it could be a matter of the DAC adding some of the things we like to hear from tube amps etc - still a bit of smoke n mirrors.
I have a Cambridge Audio Topaz amp and it's excellent quality: build and sound.
Cheers
rayc
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rayc
A decent DAC will blow away most sound cards any day.
I'm not a believer in "Upsampling" - to work as describes it'd have to use an enhancer or exciter to replace the missing information to make it sound better.
Yes I believe it does have an enhancer, the different dac chip Sabre, Wolfson etc. enhance the sound with each having there own individual sound .
I have the arcam alpha 7 amp , it also is of a good quality sound and I was happy with the sound.
Then I got to wonder about the a dac and how it would be linked to the arcam, And I was amazed at the sound when I got one, night and day.
win 10 64 bit 16gb,i7 chip, ssd 500gb, m-audio air, ,Roland BK-7M, 1000,shure sm7b,sonar,acid,mixcraft, variety of plugins.Sample tank 3,Kontakt. TC Helicon Voicelive 3 2 . https://beatmaster1.bandcamp.com/releases
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A decent DAC will blow away most sound cards any day.
I'm not a believer in "Upsampling" - to work as describes it'd have to use an enhancer or exciter to replace the missing information to make it sound better.
Yes I believe it does have an enhancer, the different dac chip Sabre, Wolfson etc. enhance the sound with each having there own individual sound .
This is getting more interesting. We are in agreement that upsampling makes no difference in the sound. First, stereo separation was mentioned. Yes, this would change the sound but can also be done in software (Ozone, for example). Now this last post mentions "enhancing the sound". So I have to wonder, what are these DAC units doing, especially when they sound different from each other, and is that a good thing? I don't think so. This reminds me of the old SoundBlaster cards. They had their own sound enhancement - I forget the exact term they used - and it was critical to turn that off if you wanted to make a good mix. For just listening, sure, enhance away and buy what sounds good to you. But I still don't understand why anyone would use this to mix or create music. What am I missing?
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Matt
More for mixing, mastering but I use this for sound quality on my cd player, mp3 and wav from pc, listening to all music in general.
Matt
So I have to wonder, what are these DAC units doing, especially when they sound different from each other, and is that a good thing? I don't think so.
The dac units are not a new concept you have a dac chip in all cd players etc, or there would be no sound coming from the cd separate player to amp.
The individual dac units have more capability to give a better quality sound than most of the stock dac chips added to cd players etc.
Just like amps , speakers and cd decks , tape decks, sound bars, ipods etc, they all have a unique sound it would be a stagnant world for music if they all sounded the same.
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Because all systems don’t sound the same (which is fine), one must mix and master on a system as flat or realistic as possible, with no ‘enhancement’. Then you or others can listen on anything you want and it should sound ok.
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Matt,
Being a 'math guy' I hope this makes sense to you.
It pushes my boundaries (grin)
DACs often have internal clocks/methods that can handle any jitters in time code better.
This is just one aspect where 'enhancement' isn't needed, just accuracy.
Some DAC units may discard info, some may adjust the info, some may do nothing in this regard, but there is always an AD/DA conversion taking place when using digital audio.
Where/when that happens and using which equipment to do so always makes a difference.
That's the only way I could explain the difference using science (or math) with my meager understanding.
Some sound cards use their own clocks to handle this jitter, some use the system clock, but many DACs excel at the actual reading of the audio data to real time conversion either way, so the audio signal that gets sent to the monitors (or computer) is not as jittery (is that even a word?).
I'm not really qualified to explain 'how' it happens, but I know I can hear it. The above info simply explains how *I* have come to think of it.
So even on a perfectly flat system it can still sound better, yet still be true.
No citation comes to mind offhand, so take with a grain of salt.
Last edited by rharv; 09/07/18 02:33 PM.
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Thanks, Bob. Yes, I’m familiar with jitter, can hear it, and do experience problems from it when I take my computer’s scratch tracks into a studio. But some sound cards have or support word clocks and are rock-solid on spec with no jitter. I agree, if a stand-alone DAC can overcome this, that’s great.
The OP is making claims about better sound. I hope that’s true and I would love to hear why. I doubt many people could hear the difference in jitter between a DAC and a typical sound card, and even if they can, it’s not in the category of stereo widening or some sort of tonal enhancement (or whatever the enhancement actually is).
Sorry, not yet convinced this is a good thing for mixing and mastering except for less jitter if in fact that’s the case.
Again, it reminds me of an old SoundBlaster running that horrid EAX, or the dubious claims made about BBE hardware. I do hope I’m wrong.
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I read all this and it is interesting but I ask for the average person what is the advantage. In my case with the level of tinnitus blasting away and most folk I play to having issues with hearing aids I question the need for 100% clarity or accuracy. Years ago I read an article that suggested most people’s hearing distorts or reduces what we are capable of hearing.
I question the need for a $2000+ device to really bring sound back as close as we can to the original. If recording into the box are you not constrained by the analog to digital converter or does the dac work both ways (in and out).
Just some thoughts
Tony
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Because all systems don’t sound the same (which is fine), one must mix and master on a system as flat or realistic as possible, with no ‘enhancement’. Then you or others can listen on anything you want and it should sound ok. Spot on. When Quincy Jones produced Thriller, the studio had the best sound system the world could offer. Quincy said "now play it back on a pair of small speakers". When asked why, he stated that it had to sound good on them also. This was what most people would be listening with.
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When Quincy Jones produced Thriller, the studio had the best sound system the world could offer. Quincy said "now play it back on a pair of small speakers". When asked why, he stated that it had to sound good on them also. This was what most people would be listening with. True, but the lower frequencies you can only check on a better class speaker set ... I really liked my Soundblaster Audigy ZS2 with all the extras it had via the connected break out box. Headphones, SPDIF. Alas it had the old PCI slot connection, and of which my new ASUS board has none. It has 64bit windows drivers, only you cannot use the internal software and hardware chips for Soundblaster FX processing anymore, which i never did anyway, but the very good internal GM sounds and eventual soundfont import possibilities makes it a worthwhile system setup too for a stand alone dekstop PC. Far better than all the current mainboard Realtek HD audio chips everybody switches off in BIAS if they're serious about audio quality from a PC. -- My Soundblaster ZS2 set is still for sale BTW, as i was forced to change horses. A difference you'll notice if the whole system is driven by a decent master wordclock like my RME UFX provides. I noticed that after a change to a Yamaha 01v96i USB audio interface using it's own wordclock. The yamaha desk wordclock sync slaved to an RME sounded quite better. Good testers for digital sound quality are decent piano recordings or cymbals. -F
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So there is no good hi fi and no bad hi fi sounds, we are pretty much approaching an era when there will be no hi fi period.
I remember my first hi fi with a cd player I went to a record shop after receiving it that morning and I had 6 cd discs to choose from.
I cannot remember the artist or titles, but I choose Graceland Paul Simon.
I remember going home and being astounded by the sound after years of records and tapes.
Arrived the Philips dac TDA1541A chip, it was in a lot of cd player after a while, my point is I now am hearing music again like I did then, how, why, where and when, I could not tell you in too much detail as even my wife who does not really listen to music much noticed/heard the difference.
Amazed that forum members on here have a doubt, about this as I always assumed that music would be as one lecturer said to me .. in the blood..?.
Video track you mentioned about the Quincy Jones produced Thriller,
Yes he listened on small speakers for the results, but he still used and had the top of the range sound system available .. Mmmm womder why that was !!.
Last edited by beatmaster; 09/07/18 10:09 PM.
win 10 64 bit 16gb,i7 chip, ssd 500gb, m-audio air, ,Roland BK-7M, 1000,shure sm7b,sonar,acid,mixcraft, variety of plugins.Sample tank 3,Kontakt. TC Helicon Voicelive 3 2 . https://beatmaster1.bandcamp.com/releases
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: May 2017
Posts: 1,682
Expert
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OP
Expert
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 1,682 |
Just to add I was working on a new song and adding vocals as I was monitoring on my Headphones.
I heard the real tracks with more body and feel, as though the guitar was next to me and not a distance away.
That made me sing more openly and get a feel for the recording that I have never had when recording , like a live feel, a gig etc.
All I am saying it works for me and I am just giving feed back.
win 10 64 bit 16gb,i7 chip, ssd 500gb, m-audio air, ,Roland BK-7M, 1000,shure sm7b,sonar,acid,mixcraft, variety of plugins.Sample tank 3,Kontakt. TC Helicon Voicelive 3 2 . https://beatmaster1.bandcamp.com/releases
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,861
Veteran
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Veteran
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,861 |
Now there’s a good reason: the sound quality inspires you so you sing better. Absolutely.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
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Update Your PowerTracks Pro Audio 2024 Today!
The Newest RealBand 2024 Update is Here!
The newest RealBand 2024 Build 5 update is now available!
Download and install this to your RealBand 2024 for updated print options, streamlined loading and saving of .SGU & MGU (BB) files, and to add a number of program adjustments that address user-reported bugs and concerns.
This free update is available to all RealBand 2024 users. To learn more about this update and download it, head to www.pgmusic.com/support.realband.htm#20245
The Band-in-a-Box® Flash Drive Backup Option
Today (April 5) is National Flash Drive Day!
Did you know... not only can you download your Band-in-a-Box® Pro, MegaPAK, or PlusPAK purchase - you can also choose to add a flash drive backup copy with the installation files for only $15? It even comes with a Band-in-a-Box® keychain!
For the larger Band-in-a-Box® packages (UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition), the hard drive backup copy is available for only $25. This will include a preinstalled and ready to use program, along with your installation files.
Backup copies are offered during the checkout process on our website.
Already purchased your e-delivery version, and now you wish you had a backup copy? It's not too late! If your purchase was for the current version of Band-in-a-Box®, you can still reach out to our team directly to place your backup copy order!
Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.
Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!
Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!
If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
Convenient Ways to Listen to Band-in-a-Box® Songs Created by Program Users!
The User Showcase Forum is an excellent place to share your Band-in-a-Box® songs and listen to songs other program users are creating!
There are other places you can listen to these songs too! Visit our User Showcase page to sort by genre, artist (forum name), song title, and date - each listing will direct you to the forum post for that song.
If you'd rather listen to these songs in one place, head to our Band-in-a-Box® Radio, where you'll have the option to select the genre playlist for your listening pleasure. This page has SoundCloud built in, so it won't redirect you. We've also added the link to the Artists SoundCloud page here, and a link to their forum post.
We hope you find some inspiration from this amazing collection of User Showcase Songs!
Congratulations to the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
We've just announced the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
There are 45 winners, each receiving a Band-in-a-Box 2024 UltraPAK! Read the official announcement to see if you've won.
Our User Showcase Forum receives more than 50 posts per day, with people sharing their Band-in-a-Box songs and providing feedback for other songs posted.
Thank you to everyone who has contributed!
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Forums66
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