Hi Fellows. I have a question about Intros. This probably had been discussed a thousand times, but I would appreciate a condensed, simple to understand answer.
I got a hang of main features of BIAB that I need, but "intros" (and endings) are a bit of a challenge for me.
This is how I understand it designed to work when building "intros": 1) Dedicate "X" number of bars for Intro. 2) Input Chords. 3) Use "Bar settings" to Solo/ Mute /Volume /Patch particular inst. or Real track 4)Use Drum variation Blue/ Green. 5)* Use Count in drums.... 6)Use a dedicated realtrack(s) for intro that is muted throughout the song
Have been experimenting with things mentioned above, but feels to me that my intros are a bit "liquid". My question is, how do you built a pronounced intro if for example all the real tracks used in composition are... I do not know how to say it right "versy"...? Like a cutout from the middle of song.
Please let me know or point me to the right direction. Thank you for your time!
You're off to a good start. I'm not sure I would have explained things the way you did but I certainly understood what you mean.
If you're going to rely strictly on the Band-in-a-Box program for instrumentation you're way works but you can improve the process.
Muting and unmuting tracks works but limits the number of RealTracks you can use. This is where using your keyboard's F5 button opens up a bunch of possibilities for you. Move your cursor to any bar then press F5. Look toward the top of the F5 window (in the red box). Notice there are button to clear RealDrums and RealTracks as well as buttons to select RealDrums and RealTracks. There is also a button to change style selections. Think of the possibilities.
Last edited by Jim Fogle; 09/01/1812:19 PM. Reason: Removed unused screenshot.
Jim, Thank you for the tip! This is helpful! How do you go back to original style later in the composition?
Please let me know. Thank you!
P.S. Coming back to our previous conversation. Great features, awkward implementation. I wish these features would be on the mixer, maybe expanded "changes" tracks. So you can visually see what is going on.
You press F5 at the return bar and select the original style. There is a small gotcha that I'll mention in a minute.
Lets say you want to make a song using two styles that are similar such as _DIXMCLS (dixieland with a clarinet solo) and _DIXMGTS (dixieland with an acoustic guitar solo). The clarinet will be the highlight instrument for most of the song but the acoustic guitar will be the solo instrument for eight bars. Select _DIXMCLS as the original song style. When you want the acoustic guitar to start (lets say bar 9), press F5 to open the bar settings window and press either the .STY button to open the StylePicker window or Open to open a Windows Explorer window and select the _DIXMGTS style. At bar 17 press F5 and reverse the process by selecting the original style, _DIXMGTS.
One of the wonders of Band-in-a-Box is it will automatically perform cross fades and make the necessary adjustments for the transitions to sound natural! The program does much of the background work you would have to do if you were cutting and pasting in any other program.
Now the gotcha. There maybe a time when you want a song to use both 3/4 and 4/4 styles. When that happens you MUST use the 4/4 style first. When a song starts in 3/4 time many users add an extra bar to the beginning of the song, start with a 4/4 style on bar one and mute all instruments. Than use F5 at bar two to switch to a 3/4 style and select "back to normal" volume change.
Jim, interesting stuff. Thank you for your time and for boiling everything down to one bowl of steamy stew
Still, a question please.
Lets say I change the style and realtracks somewhere in the middle of composition, is it possible to change everything back to original style and "changed at bar" realtracks to original state (before the "change at the bar" stuff) simple way or I have to load everything back manually?
If I follow correctly, my understanding is that you need to apply further changes of styles to revert back to the original. I don't believe that there is a single restore option.
So if you start with style ABC and then switch to style DEF (and maybe further along to GHI) and then want to go back to ABC, then you need to use F5 at the required bar and select style to ABC.
BIAB & RB2024 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
VideoTrack, Thank you for explanation. Ok, if there is no simple way to go back to original, ABC style...what about copying the Original ABC bar and pasting to location where I want to "go back" to ABC? Would that change Style/realtracks from whatever previously chosen to ABC? Including all "bar changes" of original ABC?
P.S. I am traveling now and can not test it.
P.S.S. This is probably not the right place, but I think it would make a lot of sence to have a simple, visual track arranger that can be recalled from main screen, to see, navigate and change things visually on time line, an elegant way to get rough sketch out and then work on details.
Hmm... Not sure what I am doing wrong can not get it to work right. Can somebody tell me if what I am trying to do is possible at all. Example:
First 4 Bars - Style ABC Bars 5-8 Change of Style DEF
Then I select first 4 bars (ABC) do "Copy From...To" All 5 things on the right are checked (copy chords, Copy Bar Settings, etc.) Then I copy bars(inserting) to bar 9. Clicking "Generate and Play. Bars 9-12 play DEF, not ABC...
A bit confused here.
If I copy not "just" chords, but complete line, why is it playing DEF style instead of ABC?
I think the reason is because of how the software groups or views information.
When I think about styles I don't think of what's happening in a bar I think of a "song" style. Styles don't "belong" to a bar or line; styles is part of the song structure. I view the ability to change the style within a song (using the F5 bar setting) as a little bit of a "cheat".
I think the style doesn't follow the copy because style data is outside the copy data box. My guess is no one ever thought there would be a need to copy style data.
Adding style data to the list of stuff that should be copied would make a nice wishlist request.
Rusty, Copying "from-to" doesn't copy the Style. There is no item that mentions the Style in the copy dialog.
Just copy the bars, then (1)select (click) on Bar 9 and press the F5 key then (2)press the .STY button and (3)re-select the style that the song starts in.
BIAB & RB2024 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
VideoTrack, thank you for going out of your way and explaining things in great detail! Jim, thank for support and suggestion to make a request for style copy with bars.
I am surprised that "copy style" with bars was not requested before... However it is still be like a band aid.I think a simple visual navigator / sequencer would serve better, so you can actually see what is playing where and be able to change things simple way straight from it.
P.S.S. This is probably not the right place, but I think it would make a lot of sence to have a simple, visual track arranger that can be recalled from main screen, to see, navigate and change things visually on time line, an elegant way to get rough sketch out and then work on details.
What you're describing is a DAW and you are correct, it would be a simple, visual track arranger that makes short work of what you want to accomplish.
If you had not other choice but to use BIAB to accomplish this task, it can be done in BIAB by converting tracks to audio, and then using the Audio Editor to make any changes including copy/paste selected bars to new locations within your project. Convert these audio tracks to Performance tracks and moving the Performance Tracks to various tracks in the BIAB mixer.
This is possible because the BIAB mixer functions is a similar manner as the small, portable field recorders such as the Tascam DR40 or Dr05. The Zoom H4, H1 but even more similar to the small digital recording studios such as the Zoom R8 and The Tascam DP series such as the 004,006,008,03 units. The BIAB mixer falls short of features in comparison to these external recorders but that is to be expected since the BIAB mixer is a part of a system and not an all inclusive start to finish unit as the external recorders are. An advantage to using the BIAB mixer over the external recorders is all of the various BIAB systems that the mixer is just one part of, are available to the BIAB mixer.
It can be done in BIAB but is more convenient, easier and faster to do the task in a DAW.
Charlie, maybe in some way what I am describing does resemble DAW. I always export individual WAV files from BIAB to record vocals etc on a standard DAW. But as far as composition in BIAB goes, I was unpleasantly surprised that program does not offer timeline navigation or similar to be able to see whole layout and change everything visually in one place. As couple of people suggested I should ask for it in "wishlist"
One thing not mentioned and this may also be subject to the year version and PC/Mac differences between BiAB products but open RealTracks picker and select the button in the upper right corner <Medley> if you have it.
This amazing option will allow you to add up to an additional 10 instruments to any track. You can set when the instruments change out and you have the option to even have multiple instruments play simultaneously.
This feature works independently of Styles.
This feature provides 8 track BIAB to have up to 70 instruments in a project.
Also, if you convert tracks to audio, you do get timeline and navigation similar to what you see in a DAW when you are working on a single track.
an easy way to go back to the original is to first SAVE the original before you make edits to it. Give it a unique name.... Then, simply save your edits with equally unique names.
To get unique intros and endings..... create your own and use a combination of BB/RB and original live instrumentation ...assuming you play an instrument or can use MIDI.
I do all my mixing and final recording in Sonar so edits are relatively easy to do.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.
The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
I decided to resurrect this thread. Can somebody recommend a video tutorial(s) that specifically focuses on techniques and tips&tricks on building intros / breaks /endings in depth in BIAB? I want to learn about different approaches and workflows that people use for particularly building those parts.
I can only dedicated an hour or so a day for BIAB, so need something straight to the point.
P.S. Hopefully something more recent, within last couple of years to make use of new features.
The custom endings video is helpful. Will watch the others you recommended.
When you say: "For intro's I just generally create my own" I assume you mean play out various instruments with keyboard or construct it with realtracks/midi?
I wish there would be a video with several examples on how to create intros. For me they are the hardest to grasp
I can create basic intro(s) but really would like to learn how to make more complex stuff.
When you say: "For intro's I just generally create my own" I assume you mean play out various instruments with keyboard or construct it with realtracks/midi?
Yes, I create a set of chords that fit with the song, and play along with those, usually ad libing a melody to suit.
You can also use the Melodist or Soloist to create such fills. There is an (older) video of these two functions on the Archives section of the Videos page on the web site that might be useful.
BIAB & RB2024 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
Essentially, you can add measures to the project and/or shut off the automatic intros and endings function..... and build your own.
This is easy to do in Band in a Box. I use this to get the structure of the song the way I want it from the first note to the last.
If I plan on playing a part myself..... I will have a drum track there to keep me sync'd to the timing. In my DAW, I can always mute that timing track later. I use volume automation in Sonar to open up the areas I need to drop in a solo or a fill, for example.
Do all your preplanning for the song..... structure, style, tempo, key, verse, chorus, bridges, intro's and of course, endings, in BB where it's easiest to make the changes.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.
The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
Videotrack caught my line of thought. A piece of soloist, together with some holds/stops, change of instruments, solo/mutes or even style should be sufficient to make a nice intro. "Intros" are challenging regardless of program etc. (at least for me) It is first "impression" of the composition. Soloist tracks definitely add more flavor.
The video on custom ending was helpful. I wish there was similar video on intros, done for actual song, not just a simplified example, to see the workflow and various tips/tricks in single place.
P.S. In hardware arrangers there are usually at least 3 intros available mixed/based on the rest of the song. I know that BIAB does not offer that, but it would be nice if: You create 1 intro and program would randomize stuff based on data/sound of your intro to give you somewhat different sounding choices to experiment with and tweak later.
"In hardware arrangers there are usually at least 3 intros available mixed/based on the rest of the song. I know that BIAB does not offer that, but it would be nice if: You create 1 intro and program would randomize stuff based on data/sound of your intro to give you somewhat different sounding choices to experiment with and tweak later."
Actually BIAB does offer this feature and it provides a lot of flexible and complex choices equal to what most HW Arrangers do. You can create and audition as many Intros as you desire. There is no limit of 3-4 variations. Then, if you are satisfied with any of the fully customizable auto intros, you can manually create one as others have detailed the steps here in the post.
BIAB intros are Style Based but the entire data base of Styles and all the instruments, whether RealTracks, Midi, Supermidi, Loops, Samples and Audio are available for use and completely customizable. The Intro can by one particular Style and the Song a completely different Style and even a User Created Style. All of the Intro instruments can be different than the Song Style instruments if you want them to be.
BIAB generated Intro's can be selected prior to entering the Chords into the Chord Chart, during entering Chords or after the song structure has been completed. Even months after you've completed a song, open an SGU file and instantly you can generate an Intro.
Try Edit\Song Form\Intro Bars
A Window opens with lots of options and variations. Simply audition the options, apply variations and select your favorite. Manually mute/unmute instruments, create fade in's, Fade out's, rests, holds and shots, change Styles to the options and variations of the Auto generated Intro chords and you have nearly unlimited options to create your own custom intro.
Charlie, thank you for reply. Jim already explained most of this. It is going back to our "adding tracks" discussion.
You do not have much instrumental choices in first chosen style. I am talking mostly about drums here and also some accent stuff, licks etc. So they do not get overused throughout the song.
Yes, you can tweak them, but in most cases it is awkward. The only true power feature that resolves this is: "change style at the bar" But I found out the hard way that unpredictable things start to happen when you choose one style specifically for the intro (not your main style) and then switch to your main style.
I hope I am making sense. More tracks would resolve this easily and also choices of drums from other styles at "Count in" menu.
If you're familiar with arranger keyboards I totally understand where you're coming from. I have a Korg Pa1xPro the first generation of their Pro series. I would love to have the new Pa4X but it's expensive.
That's the reason I got into Biab in the first place to get similar functionality as an arranger in software that was affordable. Of course the big difference is Biab is not real time and you are not controlling it as the song is playing, everything has to be set up ahead of time then generated.
To your questions I still think Real Band is better suited to what you're trying to do than Biab is but Biab can work too. I just like using a DAW for this because as you mentioned a DAW is linear, you can see everything as tracks.
Just one example, you talked about wanting to revert back to whatever you had set up earlier in a song. RB does that easily and you don't have to render everything to audio to do it either. RB has the Bar's Window where you simply highlight with your mouse entire chunks of your song and move them anywhere you want including both midi and audio.
If you used Style A at Bar 4 for 4 bars then used Style B for 8 bars then Style C for 4 bars and want to go back to Style A you simply highlight the Style A 4 bars section and paste them anywhere you want. Your song could have 12 styles in it and you can cut/paste any of them anywhere. You're not limited to styles either, you can mix and match any one instrument from any style both midi and RT's. Or you found something on the internet that would make a great intro so you can download and import that if you wanted. If it needs some audio editing or triming to make it fit, no problem RB is a very good audio editor.
I'm not going to explain RB in detail here, you can learn about that program by reading and posting questions on the Real Band forum. I've always said that newbies to these programs should spend an equal amount of time on both because only then will you learn what each one can do for you. They're related programs with similar functionality yet completely different.
"You do not have much instrumental choices in first chosen style. I am talking mostly about drums here and also some accent stuff, licks etc. So they do not get overused throughout the song."
Regardless of the instrument, whether it is Audio, Samples, Loops, Midi, Supermidi or RealTracks or in any combination of these different sound sources, the instrument limitation you're placing on BIAB Intros stem from your lack of knowledge of BIAB programming capabilities and not its functionality. It seems you are (no pun intended here although it's a good one) thinking "in the box" of the way BIAB is marketed rather than how it can be made to work.
BIAB does not have to be programmed to choose a Style of selected instruments, enter chords and generate a sound track. The 8 Mixer Channels can all be used for programming a single track of one instrument at a time. Finish an instrument and move to the next. In your example above, that would be drums. A single render of a BIAB project 4 bar intro could be 32 instances of midi drums. Four bars of your 96 bar song could be a single render of a guitar part comprised of 16 different guitar RealTracks arranged into a single 4 bar stereo render of a riff. Created once and used 50 times in your song. All of this done in addition to the Main Song structure and arrangement. BIAB, simply stated, does not have the limitations you credit to it.
Here's two examples using BIAB with its current 8 Channel Mixer:
An example of a 4 bar intro programmed with only midi: Each Bar of every Channel can accept a patch change. 4 bars X 8 Channels = 32 patch changes which equates into 32 different instruments in your 4 bar Intro.
An example of a 4 bar intro programmed with only RealTracks: RealTracks accept an instrument change every two bars. So, a track of 4 bars in an intro can have two separate RealTrack instruments. 2 instruments per track X 8 channels is 16 different instruments in a four bar intro. In any combination. Each instrument can be different. It can be a combination of a few instruments alternating throughout the song. Very complex arrangements can be quickly done in BIAB in nearly unlimited combinations of length and with the instruments they're comprised of. A subtle benefit here is they can all play simultaneously if you want.
The BIAB Intro can be programmed separately from the remainder of your song's Main Style or Styles. If you have a 4 bar intro that will ever require more than 32 instrument changes, feel free to let us know and i'm sure you'll get the assistance for your project.
It's not an awkward process at all and is very straightforward.
Charlie, I understand what you are trying to explain... I do not think you understood what I was aiming at.
Ok, I got my Chorus/Verse/ending figured out. And... I want to work on intro now. So I insert 2-3-4... as many bars as I need at the beginning, but lets say I do not like the drums that are present in A or B for my Intro... I want to use parts of style C and parts of style D for the intro.
Tinkering with style changes at first intro bars, after I assembled most of the backing track, did not work for me on several occasions. Commonly 3 things that happened: a) unpredictable results b) song would just not play (nothing happened on press of play button) c)All chords would turn red. would start playing and then stop.
Basically, funky things start to happen when I start to completely overhaul intro of already established composition using style change from the start of the song.
The easiest way I found was to completely redo intro is to assemble a new project in BIAB just for intro, output it to separate WAV files and do a little collage in DAW of choice
You can either manually program an intro, verse, chorus,bridge or outro manually and individually as I detailed above or if you prefer, you can program your own custom MultiStyle with up to 24 different part markers and alter Styles in that manner.
From the BIAB manual:
Band-in-a-Box MultiStyles are styles that can have up to 24 Substyles; original Band-in-a-Box styles had two Substyles, "a" and "b." Band-in-a-Box MultiStyles typically have four Substyles, but may have up to twenty-four, selected by using part markers "a" through "x."
You can easily make your own MultiStyles, either from scratch, or combining parts from existing styles to make a MultiStyle. For example, if you have 10 favorite Country styles, you can quickly make a single MultiStyle that has 20 Substyles available within the same song.
I ran across the same problem you are describing a year or so ago, it seemed the song file somehow got corrupted and wouldn't play. At that point I couldn't find any way to recover, other than delete the file and start from scratch.
Can you duplicate the problem on a predictable basis, is there a specific sequence of events that cause it to happen every time? I wasn't able to when it happened to me.
If so you can, contact support about it and report a bug. Or even send them the sgu file, they could maybe figure it out from that.
Last edited by BlueAttitude; 09/29/1807:48 AM. Reason: Better English :P
Charlie, I think I know what Mike is talking about. It involves adding a new intro to a song that has already had lots of stuff done to it. That has to be done up front before you've created the rest of the song. If you try to do that after it turns into a mess. Maybe that has changed in the last year or so, don't know.
It's not something I do because if I'm going much beyond the basics in Biab I'll use Real Band instead. Many people have posted the same thing, use Biab as a fast and easy style generator to get an idea of what you want then move it to RB. Especially something like using multiple styles in the same song, using tracks from different styles along with intro's, repeats, coda's, tag endings all that fun stuff.
Biab makes my eyes ache when it gets that complicated, RB is so much easier and can do the same thing without all the drama. Well, you still have to learn RB too but after that it's much easier. At least for me.
I probably misunderstood him. Adding intros that causes problems has not been an issue I've run into but both you,Dave and Mike have so I've just been lucky. Glad Mike got his issue with the intro on his project worked out.
I agree with Bob. Don't try to use BiaB as a DAW. Quickly go from BiaB to a DAW regardless of what ever the DAWs name is. It could be RB, Studio One, Sonar, Reaper etc. YMMV
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up. Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
Mario, yes, as soon as the track is more or less sketched in BIAB, I render it as individual files and to Cakewalk it goes
It is all comes down to this: "Note, that style changes at Bar 1 result in overall style for song changing."
Maybe initial topic got slightly carried away. To summarize latest replies, it is probably a wish list item to be able to "import" drum parts/breaks for intros from other styles other then initial style to alter intro after song is laid out.
So my workaround is to output additional drum tracks and chop them in DAW and just try different variations for Intros.
It is not difficult, but I do not like to jump from BIAB to DAW. Since they share same audio resources it takes time to go back and forth... Saving/Opening projects, closing/opening software, rendering, importing audio, trying again... going back.
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