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Can somebody who is well familiar with BIAB answer a few questions in short form, if possible. I do not want to pollute the forum with random questions, so I figured this would be a good place to ask most of them.

1)I assume it is not possible to create more tracks in mixer, or is it? Was the option of adding track discussed before?

2)Is it possible to minimize mixer completely in full "expanded" mode of BIAB. (middle button), so it goes away? (I am aware of the full screen mode, where you can hide the mixer for good)

3) Is it possible to divide bars into 4 beats/parts (4/4 songs) for example.... or it is only done through "chord option" menu? If it is not possible, was it discussed before?

4)On the "count in" it is not possible to use fills from other drum tracks, other than the ones in mixer, correct? Or it possible to use fill ins for the "COUNT INs" from other "real drums" other then the ones on the main style? If yes, what would be simplest way to do so?

Thank you in advance,
Mike.

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Sorry, one more:

5) Is there a good reason why chords can not be entered straight from midi controller, is there a way to bypass "CTRl+Enter" when entering them from controller?

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Good questions

1: BiaB has always had the limitation of the number of Tracks available. (RealBand gives you 48 tracks)

2: You can change the transparency of the mixer and tuck it into a corner with the 'A' button. Otherwise you just have to hide it manually.

3: You can have a maximum of 4 chords per bar but the bar doesn't get divided. It actually contains two cells. The left hand cell can hold chords on beats one and/or two. Enter the first two chords in the LH cell, separating them with a comma. Repeat for the RH cell e.g.
Eb,Bb7 Ab,Fm7

4: There are options for count-in but they are global. Whatever you select plays for every song. Not ideal and there is a wishlist items of many years asking for it to be changed. You may wish to add your endorsement. However, I have no idea how PGM decides if the users' practical requests are worthy of delivery.

Options > Preferences > Count-In to set you preference.

Hope this helps

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VideoTrack, thank you for the input!


Sad, that so many things have not improved during long life of PG.

Real band is a "no go" for me. I think it is just a fruit of poor programming. Real band + BIAB should be one program, not two smile

P.S. I watched your "concept" user interface video a few times... I like some of the ideas. Especially the mixer part. I think the best approach would be to have it snap / dockable as a small flat & thin button to various parts of toolbar or even on the bottom and minimized and expanded the way you imagined.

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Re: Mixer, there used to be a mini-mixer which had a reduced set of features but had the benefit of taking up significantly less screen space while playing. It's not available in the latest couple of releases. No idea why.

Thanks for the feedback on the Concept Video. Many people had been requesting that the UI needed significant updating. I like to this that this assisted the company to take some steps.

IMHO, compared to other modern interfaces, there is still a lot that could be improved.


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Quote:
1)I assume it is not possible to create more tracks in mixer, or is it? Was the option of adding track discussed before?
While you can't have additional tracks you can change instrument patches or RealTrack choices as many times as you need using the F5 Bar Settings screen. One unsung advantage of using the F5 Bar Settings screen to change the instruments assigned to a track is the program takes care of all the background work (crossfades, etc.) needed to make a smooth instrument change. Using multiple instrument selections on one track is similar to how many people use a hardware based digital recorder that has a fixed number of tracks. For instance if you have a track that is designated for a vocal, when there is no singing you may want to add a guitar, piano or tambourine. I believe the program limit for instrument changes is ten instruments per track.


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Q: 1) I assume it is not possible to create more tracks in mixer?

A: 1) BiaB has always had the limitation of the number of Tracks available.

A: 1) BIAB only has 8 tracks but those tracks can be used over and over to create
new digital tracks by taking advantage of BIAB features that allow up to ten
instruments per track and also by using the Audio Track and Performance Track
export channel mixes as WAV files and importing this mix into the Audio Track,
convert the imported audio file to a Performance Track and move this Performance
Track to another Track. This is called Bouncing and the mixing is done digitally so there is no
degradation of the audio. Every export is a first generation export. Then continue to add additional instruments and
Bounce Mixes until your song is complete.


DEMO of the process being done on a Tascam 4 track recorder:

Recording Live with a four track with a Tascam DP004......


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Excellent and very impressive and well worth taking notice of.

I might have missed the target of the original question. I didn't interpret that the O/P was looking for a way to bounce and mix-down multiple tracks instead of introducing more than 8 tracks. I answered on the basis is not currently possible to create more than 8 tracks in BiaB.

Other workarounds are available to record, mix-down and repeat. But in BiaB there are currently 8 only tracks.

(Incidentally, my own feeling is that more would be better)

However, credit must be given that resolving such limitations can be attained by other means. Maybe not ideal, but doable.


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I'll address questions #1 & #4 together.

Quote:
1)I assume it is not possible to create more tracks in mixer, or is it? Was the option of adding track discussed before?


4)On the "count in" it is not possible to use fills from other drum tracks, other than the ones in mixer, correct? Or it possible to use fill ins for the "COUNT INs" from other "real drums" other then the ones on the main style? If yes, what would be simplest way to do so?



BB is limited to a few tracks. However, if you save the project and reopen it in Real Band, you now have the original tracks created in BB and the ability to generate a whole bunch of real tracks to fill out the band. The cool thing is in BB, it always selects from tracks that fit the style. For example.... Hard Rock LA style will give you guitars, bass, and drums. But suppose you want fiddle and steel guitar? In BB, you can replace something with something else, but in Real Band (RB) you can simply add those to the project, and they play exceptionally well. I do this all the time.

Next.... if you regen the project, on occasion, it will pick up some lead in notes. However, you can always use your imagination and add some measures to let certain instruments play "before the song starts" to give you lead in on one or more instruments. Note of caution: If you regen and it does give you some lead in notes that you really like..... BE SURE TO FREEZE that track. Because the next time you regen the project, it will regen the lead in and it will be gone and you'll probably never get it back again. Freezing is the only way to save it..... well, you can also export it..... and probably a few other ways..... but you get my meaning.

I go a step further, and move the tracks into Sonar where I can use all sorts of editing techniques to get lead ins, fills, and solos where I want them. I find it easier to work in this manner. Some others do too, and of course other folks don't. Use your imagination and think out of the box when you want to do something that doesn't appear to be a built in feature. If you can imagine it, there's a way to do it.

Last edited by Guitarhacker; 09/16/18 05:49 AM.

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Originally Posted By: VideoTrack
Excellent and very impressive and well worth taking notice of.

I might have missed the target of the original question. I didn't interpret that the O/P was looking for a way to bounce and mix-down multiple tracks instead of introducing more than 8 tracks. I answered on the basis is not currently possible to create more than 8 tracks in BiaB.

Other workarounds are available to record, mix-down and repeat. But in BiaB there are currently 8 only tracks.

(Incidentally, my own feeling is that more would be better)

However, credit must be given that resolving such limitations can be attained by other means. Maybe not ideal, but doable.


I think you accurately answered the OP's question. But if you think of the 8 mixer tracks as Channels, there are 8 physical Channels but each Channel can be used multiple times both by bouncing two or more Channels to an exported mono or stereo WAV file and by recording multiple instruments onto a single channel. Think of a TV channel having multiple different programs throughout a broadcast day and having commercials inserted into various places throughout the programming while also having multiple channels available on your TV set. Each Channel having it's own unique programming.

By the OP using the word create rather than add, it can't be determined from the question alone what he was asking. If he meant create to be the same as add, you are correct but using create with it's traditional meaning, using bounce techniques, you can create dozens of tracks using the 8 physical channels of the BiAB Mixer. The computer hard drive becomes BIAB Mixer Virtual Tracks.

Here is a video deconstructing "Sgt Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band" recorded on a four track recorder in 1967 by the Beatles. There are a lot of different instruments and vocals arranged and recorded throughout the song.

Deconstructing Sgt Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band


Last edited by Charlie Fogle; 09/16/18 07:37 AM.

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Guys, thank you for input!

Charlie, I am familiar with bouncing, but I prefer doing everything like that in Cakewalk, just like Guitarhacker mentioned. I do not even bother with doing mixing in BIAB. As soon as I get composition to the point where I want it to be, I export it as individual WAV files and feed them to amazing Cakewalk smile

Jim, you are right for the most part, but sometimes I do not want to sacrifice one for the other (change at the bar) I might want a couple of other things happen at the same time musically. Maybe I am greedy, but read below.

I just feel BIAB is shy of 1-2 more tracks, for those accent instruments / filaments. It would be nice if they had possibility to add 2 more tracks smile

And also an integrated way to use drum "fill ins" from other(not selected) tracks as lead ins, or other places in song.

So that is probably where my winning of two extra tracks is coming from. To use a separate track for drum "fill ins" and the other
for accent items.

wishes, wishes...

Mike.

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Originally Posted By: Rustyspoon#


Sad, that so many things have not improved during long life of PG.

Real band is a "no go" for me. I think it is just a fruit of poor programming. Real band + BIAB should be one program, not two smile




Rusty,

I totally don't understand this. I am saying this in a friendly way because you identify as a "newbie", but I really think you may want to give BIAB and Real Band a little more time and spend more time studying what they do as separate tools, and how to use them, before you say things like "It's so sad..." Study is the operative term. It takes a while to get the hang of it all because there is so much there. But that's what I like about it. Music itself requires study.

Band-In-a-Box and Real Band improve every year. Those PG folks are working hard and they ALREADY deliver the best producer's tool on the planet. The difference between the sound quality of a "Real Track" and most sampled stuff generated by other programs is like the difference between a 1957 Les Paul and a garbage can.

BIAB and Real Band are two different things and focus on two different objectives. Band-in-a-Box is an electronic lead sheet that lets you enter in a song form and then pick a basic style with Real Musicians. For that alone, I am surprised it has not won the Nobel prize.

Real Band is an associated tool that allow you to open those basic tracks and then gives you 40 slots where you can pick from at least 2,5000 other parts, fragments, sections, or entire tracks of every imaginable studio instrument plus additional drums (minus the bagpipe but that may be coming) by pressing one blue button.

And these aren't samples--they are performances. Where else on God's Green Earth will you go to find that?????

A choice of drums by real drummers performing at your fingertips? A real horn section? Real backing vox? What else does that?

One click export and you are ready to import to your DAW.

I also find Real Band to be the BEST and most reliable place to record all audio, and it is so much easier to edit audio there than in Cakewalk, which I know like the back of my hand. Real Band is great for track generating and recording, Cakewalk is great for mixing: that's the way I look at it and work (but to each his own.)

I simply cannot understand when people say Real Band is a "no go."

No go what?

Sure it has some glitches from time to time but the work arounds take 3 seconds. Better than waiting two weeks for the drummer to show up.

I am a die-hard Real Band fan and I think it is a goldmine.

I have never once looked at PG Products and gone "It is so sad."

I go:

"Thank you God, Praise Jesus and Hallelujah."

But maybe that is just me.


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David: "you identify as a "newbie""
Yes, to PG, but not newbie to recording with computer and trying out many different software titles for the past 20 years smile
RealBand... well... in the nice way... Maybe a spectacular program for 2003-2005, but not for for 2018 (almost 2019). That expressing it in the nice way. You are only using both programs because one does not have things that the other has. Not because you would not use it if it was a single, well written software.

Of course I tried it, and if I really (REALLY) do not need it, I will not touch it for the life of it. BIAB and Realband are not two different things. They have more similarities than differences. PG wants users to believe they are, but they are not. I am all in for two programs to get merged into something stable and user friendly (about that time), instead of hypnotising me into believing that jumping like a monkey from one program to another is a good thing when you are working with same clay.

"And these aren't samples--they are performances. Where else on God's Green Earth will you go to find that?????"

I never questioned that. Performances are spectacular indeed. But both programs are wayyy outdated. Not in terms of functionality, function wise they are very detailed, but user experience. From a scale 1-10 I put it close to 5. I am VERY hopeful that that will change.

P.S. I would not even go the route of comparing Cakewalk to Realband smile

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I agree with everything you have said except merging BiaB and RB. I do not want BiaB to look or be like RB. Take some of the features from RB like regenerating just a measure or two fine but I do not want BiaB to be a RB like DAW. Keep BiaB just as a backing track generator.

I totally agree that RB is no where near the same caliper as Sonar, which I used to use, and my current DAW Studio One Pro 4 even though RB can do some things that other DAWs can not do. This is not to say that RB is total crap as some here can produce excellent results with it and its cousin Master Tracks Pro. I just can't get used to RB, but that is my problem, I don't like how it functions.

Improve both BiaB and RB but do not merge them. YMMV.


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Guys,

All I am saying is that I LIKE Real Band for generating EXTRA tracks beyond the basic 8 and it is an awesome tool for doing that.

No, I would never compare Sonar to Real Band, of course not-- and I am an expert user of both.

Real Band generates tracks and Sonar does not. Yeah, they're different all right.

Also, I record guitar all day and all night and I prefer to record into Real Band because TO ME it is easier to edit audio in Real Band. Much simpler. In Real Band it is fairly easy to edit audio down to the nanosecond, whereas Sonar is a pain in the a....for really tight edits. To me anyway.

BUT, I mix in Sonar all day long too. They are different tools for different uses.

I guess I am still so mesmerized with what Real Band CAN DO that I don't have much energy left over to worry about what it CAN'T do. I have a stack of songs on deck a mile high that I will finish using those Real Band tracks.

I just assume the geniuses who created this software that so many of us get so much mileage out of every single day are working that into their Agile workflow.

In my opinion they have done a pretty good job so far.

YMMMV....

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Mario,
Normally I would agree with you, I am sort of in your shoes about getting used to things that do not feel right about. Not on this one.

Since you are using Cakewalk, I will give you a Cakewalk example of what I mean. Probably most of people who use it, taking advantage of 15%-20% on average of what this program is capable of (including me). I do not like amass of buttons, it makes me dizzy.
I tried/bought 3 versions of Cakewalk during past years. Last one was "Home Studio". I figured, it does everything I need. It was far cleaner than Sonar X and that is where I stayed.
Then Meng gave away Platinum... Free is a good price, especially for the program that I like very much. It has tons of extra items that Home Studio did not have. Is it bad? I do not feel that way as one day I might want to try something that I have not tried before.
Just as with previous version, I customized exactly how I want it to be on the screen. Getting rid of all the modules, buttons and other things that I most likely will never use. Now, every time I open the program it has just the stuff I need. It smiles at me and I am smiling back.
So, my thoughts about "merging" are based on that... That you can have the 2 in one option, but customize to see, what you want to see. But if you do need to do something with composition other than one program can do, it would make sense to everything in one place.

For the "diehards" and opposition, this will most likely never happen and benefit of "merging" is just my humble opinion. Please do not stone me.

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Reading the responses lead me to believe the problems perceived with BIAB have more to do with personal preferences than functionality. Some things are easier tasks to complete in other software, so that becomes the workflow.

I think the 8 channel mixer limitation has to do with BIAB's foundation in MIDI. Many have wished and requested 16 channels to match the MIDI standard. That being said, that's pure speculation on my part but it makes sense to me, everyone would probably support any number of additional channels in the BIAB mixer.

While two additional channels would be nice, All the things Mike has listed as beneficial uses for two extra channels still way understates many other uses the extra channels would bring to the program. But the real issue I see is that all of the things Mike lists (and more) can already be done in BIAB with the existing number of channels we have. Maybe not to the level of one's personal preference, which will vary greatly between user to user, but the functionality is there. Some prefer not to use the functionality. (actually, many prefer not to) I'm not sure PGMusic will want to invent the wheel again or that they should even consider it when the wheel they've already invented is fully functional but not customizable to personal preferences.

A point Mike didn't make but that became obvious to me as I read through the posts; adding an additional channel that is not set up in the traditional manner of the other tracks but rather as a channel to facilitate implementing underused functions that exist. It is also obvious that if it can be done for one channel, it can be done for each channel and likely multiple times.

I'm going to do a little research and experimenting and may soon be posting something into the Wishlist Forum.

Last edited by Charlie Fogle; 09/17/18 01:22 PM.

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Originally Posted By: Rustyspoon#

For the "diehards" and opposition, this will most likely never happen and benefit of "merging" is just my humble opinion. Please do not stone me.

Please note that being a diehard and being a heavily experienced, knowledgeable user is not the same thing. Not mutually exclusive, but not the same thing.


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As a long time RB user I agree with some of your comments. What RB does for me is it allows me to create instant comp tracks of whatever instrument I want. For example, the original song style uses a particular strumming guitar and it sounds good. In RB I can scroll down to an empty track and generate a completely different guitar track just for giggles. Then go to the next track and do it again. Now I have three separate and discreet background rhythm guitars to mess with. And I may generate a couple of solo guitars too just to add a few licks here and there. The fact that complete tracks are generated does not mean you have to use them all. Maybe I'll wind up using 4 bars of a 64 bar RT generated solo track. Let the song play and use the mute buttons to audition each track. Sometimes I won't generate the whole track, just 16 bars and highlight the next 16 bars and generate a different guitar RT there. Lots of ways to do this. Also, don't forget midi. You have full access to the thousands of midi styles too and you just set up your synth on that track and start generating some midi guitar parts too.

I can generate 10 different tracks in about the same amount of time it just took me to write this. Now, expand what I just wrote to drums, percussion, keyboards, whatever.

THAT'S what Real Band can do for you and it's awesome. Once you've decided on which tracks you want to keep you're still free to export them to whatever DAW you want. So far, even though I have Sonar, Studio One and others, I don't really need them. Or, since I'm not a full time pro at this I really don't know what I'm missing. Ok, but I manage to get RB to do what I need. I recently retired so I am going to get into those other DAW's in detail and I'm sure I'll find stuff I like better than how RB does it but make no mistake, RB WILL DO everything those other DAW will do. How do I know this? From what others have posted who know those other programs. Each DAW is different, one does something one way and others do it a different way but bottom line, they all can get the job done because a digital recording is nothing but bits on a hard drive and there are a gazillion ways to manage those bits.

You sound like you're computer savvy, you've seen this in lots of other non musical programs. Office 365, vs Open Office, all the different email programs, All the different A/V programs, some like one others like another and they all work.

Bob


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Bob,

I don't know which version of Sonar you have but get the free Cakewalk by Bandlab if you do not already have it and look at the "Pro Channel" options on each track.

You may possibly change your mind on some of what you just said.

If you have not seen the Pro Channel and you use it for the first time I predict you will say:

"Dang I love this Pro Channel."

Tube Saturation and Tape Emulation on the same strip, just for starters.

Trust me on this one.

smile

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Charlie, actually customization is probably the easiest update PG can make. Function wise it is packed. The beauty of customization is that each user can adjust the program to their liking. Customization is like: You do not place the bed in the kitchen, just because you can sleep on it...But perhaps some would like that...to be close to refrigerator at night smile
(Extra tracks would be nice though, and a few other relatively minor things)

As far as my opinion on Realband "merging".(I knew I am going to be eaten for breakfast) I think this was misunderstood. Here is a simplified version of what I was talking about. Take a look at the picture below. You open "one" program, with option which program you want to start by default. So lets say you work in BIAB and you need to edit some stuff in Realband, you click on magical button on the top and your BIAB project is transferred to Realband freezing the project in BIAB without closing it, until you click "BIAB" button in Realband. So basically you have ONE project that is editable by ONE program that has both BIAB & Realband at the same time. I know there are many things that are involved, by I do not believe this is such a horrible idea.


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Originally Posted By: Matt Finley
Originally Posted By: Rustyspoon#

For the "diehards" and opposition, this will most likely never happen and benefit of "merging" is just my humble opinion. Please do not stone me.

Please note that being a diehard and being a heavily experienced, knowledgeable user is not the same thing. Not mutually exclusive, but not the same thing.


But Matt, when these converge, it's a beautiful thing man.

smile

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Hi Guitarhacker. English is not my native language and I don't understand what you mean when you write "Next.... if you regen the project, on occasion, it will pick up some lead in notes."

Sorry to ask, but I cannot find the word "regen" in any of my dictionaries, so the sentence is a bit difficult to understand. Is it just BiaB slang that I have to learn?

Kind regards,
Will

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Will, regen is shorten for regenerate.

David, in Cakewalk (recently by Bandlab) I use Neutron, which is a tool of choice.

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Thank you. I learn something new every day. :-)

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Mike, I'm not really into the RealBand vs Biab debate but I do get your analogy of putting the bed in the kitchen and it is a great example of my earlier point that the issue is really more about personal preference than functionality. It's easy to see the bed never changes its functionality being moved into the kitchen and adds nothing to the functions of a kitchen, it's a personal preference to not have to walk from the bedroom to the kitchen at night. It's a workflow thing. But there's always compromises isn't there. Moving the bed to the kitchen may double the time and distance getting to the bathroom. My perception of switching back and forth between BIAB and RB for 'quick' edits is no more logical than writing sentences in Notepad and transferring each sentence as I write it over to Word to punctuate it and then return to Notepad for the next sentence. That interrupts my train of thought and would cause me to lose focus with my project.

An example many give they use RealBand to open a BIAB project and begin to open and audition various RealTracks for their song. This is very easy to do quickly in BIAB. Especially if I'm experimenting or structuring a song and want to audition different instruments and I've not progressed so far into a project I know the layout and instrumentation finalized. The functionality of BIAB to allow up to 10 instrument variations per channel is much faster and convenient way to audition instruments and not have to lose time and focus to swap between programs until you are ready to actually build your song.

Functionally, changing your workflow in BIAB can drastically change how you construct a project and expose you to features that easily allow you to structure your song, build your instrumentation, choose styles all in such a way to make it so you can eliminate RealBand, Sonar or any other external software you may now use.


BIAB Ultra Pak+ 2024:RB 2024, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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Rusty,

I hear ya man. Bandlab 2018 with Pro Channel, EQ and Waves J-37 (third party).

Purty Ain't it.


GET 'ER DONE

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I really need to try Waves J-37. I've been using their Kramer Master Tape for years, J-37 appears to be even better.

Saturation really is the secret sauce! It's funny how much work I put into trying to make tracks on my modern high-end PC sound like they were tracked on comparitively primitive gear from decades ago laugh

Cheers
Kent
PG Music

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Kent,

I think the J-37 might still be on sale. I love it and use it on almost everything. On reviews, users generally seem to prefer it to the Kramer and say it has more of a real tape feel. To me it is like butter. On the latest song I posted on the forum "Tahoma" I am using the set up shown in the picture in Bandlab using tube saturation, tape emulation, and the J-37 as well on the master bus.

It sounds pretty analog to me.

smile

And yes, saturation is DEFINITELY the secret sauce. I am at the point where I have learned it is just best to go ahead and saturate everything.

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Originally Posted By: Rustyspoon#
You open "one" program, with option which program you want to start by default. So lets say you work in BIAB and you need to edit some stuff in Realband, you click on magical button on the top and your BIAB project is transferred to Realband freezing the project in BIAB without closing it, until you click "BIAB" button in Realband. So basically you have ONE project that is editable by ONE program that has both BIAB & Realband at the same time. I know there are many things that are involved, by I do not believe this is such a horrible idea.


Rusty, you're not the first noob to come on these forums with a lot of recording experience and start opining in detailed long posts what's wrong with these programs and offering suggestions. What you're missing is you're speaking to some in this thread who have been beta testers for years, some over 10 years. We know all this, it's been talked to death already especially the idea of merging the two programs together. Several years ago there is a HUGE thread about that very subject. Detailed arguments for and against.

Here's what you don't know. Real Band is not simply another version of Biab. RB is a version of Power Tracks Pro Audio which is nothing but a simple basic DAW. It's a completely separate program with different developers. Way back PG dropped a bombshell by having Power Tracks able to generate a Real Drum track. There were no Real Tracks yet. Considering how lame midi drums can sound this was incredible. Later they added other Biab functions to PT and created a new program called Real Band. Here's the deal, RB can open a Biab file but it cannot save in Biab format. That has been requested for years now and it's assumed it's just not possible because PT was NEVER designed to be another version of Biab, it's its own discrete program. That means your idea of having those buttons to switch back and forth and do edits in both programs is useless.

We're not diehards Rusty, we're just very experienced users who know the history of this development. You're like a new guy who was just hired at a company and is attending his first meeting. The new guy is going to expound for hours about what they've been doing wrong for years and start talking about all these great ideas he's got to fix it? In your first meeting in front of people who've been working on that stuff for years?

First of all we users are not the ones who make any decisions at all. PG does that. PG stands for Peter Gannon and he will post here once in a while. The forum etiquette is to put your suggestions and comments on how to fix stuff into the Wishlist Forum. That's where the developers look and they actually do add things based on some of those suggestions.

But hey, this is an open forum for free discussion so knock yourself out and have fun. Just don't expect a lot of action.

Bob


Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Praise Jesus, Hallelujah, and Thank GOD for Peter Gannon.


yeah.... both BB & RB are God Sends to me and how I create music. Each one does something specific and unique that nothing else in the world does.


You can find my music at:
www.herbhartley.com
Add nothing that adds nothing to the music.
You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.

The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Bob, got where you stand. For the big following that BIAB has and with all the market at their fingertips, I have yet to find good reason why interface sucks and speed is so slow on my lightning fast computer... Except for greediness. This is my opinion.

Reading numerous posts, I got the impression that PG does not offer road map or even some distant promises. That I find a bit bitter and distasteful. That was/is approach of RIP greatest thief of all time Steve Jobs with millions of fan boys and girls, who like to be "surprised" and "amused". I would like to know before hand what I am getting into.

Besides technical questions that I ask, I am sorry if I offended you with my opinions. My biggest question which consolidates all others is: "DOES BIAB HAS A FUTURE"? or it is a dying dinosaur? I do not mind riding a dying dinosaur for few years, but I also do not want to invest endless hours in getting to know it very intimately if doctors pronounced incurable disease.

A simple 5 word reply from someone in "secretive" development saying: "we are working on it". (64BIT / modern GUI)
Should resolve most of anxiety smile

Mike.

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Ok Mike, first I'm not offended in the least. We're all friends here, we're just having a friendly discussion. Concerning 64 bit. I take it you didn't search for that subject and find Peters very detailed post about that?

Bottom line it's not needed and would do nothing for overall functionality. It concerns memory allocation on a Windows PC and JBridge handles that very well for $10. So I guess Peter's calculation is ten bucks or who knows how much to completely rewrite the program for 64 bit?

Like I said man, this is old stuff, been discussed to death already and the Forum Search function is actually quite helpful...

When you say you're afraid Biab is a dinasaur that may die soon another thing you probably don't know is Biab is huge in music schools all over the world. For all we know the education part could account for the majority of their sales and a school would care little for all this stuff we're talking about.

A friend of mine is a very good schooled guitarist who also runs two music schools. He and his staff all use Biab with students. I watched him once with a student. All he did was take a standard Real Book tune and have the student play along with it. He just used the basic midi synth, no Real Tracks, no Real Drums, nothing fancy. Just have the kid play along. This is going on the world over.

On to something that could be real. You said your very fast PC is slow with Biab? Explain that because none of us here have that problem, maybe we can help you with that.

Bob

Last edited by jazzmammal; 09/18/18 08:55 AM.

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David, I think Buddha is a better choice for me.

jazzmammal,
my issue is that while assembling a backing track in BIAB I spend about 50% of time waiting on regeneration and slow GUI. So if a backing track normally takes me 3-4 hours to assemble, it takes 6-8 in BIAB on average. Freezing
or not, it happens for 2 reasons:

1)Old code that is responsible for lag and slow GUI (yes, I read most of the looooong post that pipeline posted for me)
2)tracks regeneration is happening from source, not from/in RAM.

I estimate that with all the technique available, I can reduce "dumb" time by 10-15% but it is like eating aspirin if your tooth needs a root canal.

Sadly, at this time, I doubt anything substantial can be done about it. I guess the best approach would be just wait and check by the end of every year to see if patient had improved or...not.

A few comments to your points.

"old stuff, been discussed to death" - Means there is an active issue.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"it's not needed and would do nothing for overall functionality" - That one I do not agree completely with.
----------------------------------------------------------
"Peter's calculation"- for established users maybe his calculations are correct. For new blood... I do not know many people who would "start" using 32 bit Delphi program in 2018. Not that I care, but I do as this will impact development in the future.
------------------------------------------------------------

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Bob,

To add just one example to this "educational application" you mentioned (and I am sure it applies to most instruments):

Most of the Brent Mason tracks have notation because he records with a Fish midi converter most of the time I believe.

Brent is called by some the "greatest telecaster player alive" and was discovered by Chet Atkins. So, if you are wondering whether the Chet Atkins "train-style" thumb-picking tracks are life-like, well, you are hearing and LOOKING AT (in notation) a guy who has played on Chet Atkins' albums.

For all or most of his tracks, you can press notation and watch what he is doing, see how he plays, what notes he is using, and where, at as slow a tempo as you like: i.e., you can go to the Brent Mason guitar school at your desk.

For a guitarist, it is mind-boggling to consider that you can do this, or learn jazz guitar from say, Oliver Gannon.

This feature alone makes BIAB the most jaw-dropping musical program in the world--and that is just one feature out of 5,000.

I would say the programmers have done a pretty good job. Musicians think so at least. We are stunned.

And yes, over at Meredith College nearby, the music department runs on Band-in-a-Box, I am told.

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You said it's been discussed to death so that means there's an issue. An issue with who? You and Pipeline? Pipeline is a great forum member he knows so much about this stuff it amazes me. BUT...

My point is you guys and a few others like you are not the average users of Biab.

You mentioned slow regeneration times. Do you consider generating 8 tracks in 7 to 8 seconds slow? That's how long it takes me to do it and you can read in my sig the specs of my PC. If you're referring to how long it takes in Real Band, yes it takes a whole lot longer but it has nothing to do with old code. Here's another tidbit you probably don't know.

Years ago when the Real Tracks first came out followed by a total flood of new RT's every year since people started complaining about how long it took to generate because prior to the RT's Biab ran great on old, sloooooow XP machines with 1 gig or less of RAM. That's because it was all midi which requires minimal processing power. I'm not going to go into detail just understand that manipulating audio like Biab does requires a TON or processing power. An old Core Duo with 2 gigs of ram can take a minute and a half to generate 8 tracks of RT's. Midi? Almost instant.

PG advertising says Biab runs fine on older machines and that's true. Doesn't mean you will be happy with working that slow.

What PG did and this was some time ago, is massage Biab to begin playing your song after it had only generated maybe the first 4-8 bars and not wait until it regenerated the whole thing. That transformed the time it took to hear playback BUT as you are playing back it's still generating in the background. You would not notice anything unless you stopped after a bar or two and hit regen again. Then Biab can lock up while it does it. It hasn't crashed, it's just working.

Real Band since it is NOT simply another version of Biab needs to regenerate the whole song and since it can have way more than 8 tracks it can take a while but if you use RB like I described and just do one track at a time, no problem. That's what you do in your home studio anyway, right? One track at a time. Also, RB does not use temp files for edits like most big name DAW's do. There are good sides to that and bad sides. The good is you don't have to go back and flush (Adobe Auditions term) all your temp files created by edits. One project I worked on took almost 15 minutes to clear all that out. RB does it all in real time with no temp files which makes your immediate work flow slower but then you don't pay that time back later.

Anyway, back to your issue with time. Tell us the specs of your PC and your EXACT steps you take when you generate your tracks and let's see if you have a fixable problem.

Bob


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I am an average user smile
I can only respectfully bow to pipeline and several other members who keep the "reality check" button from getting heavily dusted.

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Quote:
RB does not use temp files for edits


That is not true. (not to be rude)
How RB handles these temp files at the end of a session may differ, but there are definitely temp files in use. Otherwise 'Undo' would not exist.

In Audio prefs area there is a specific location designated for these temp files. It's labeled Audio Temp Directory.
I always use a separate drive for this location simply because incoming audio gets stored there (temporarily) during recording. I think it's a big 'little thing' you can do to add stability and speed to RB.

This way recording 8 incoming tracks to a different drive than the one that's reading 24 outgoing (already saved) tracks is beneficial for obvious reasons (drive thrash for one).
Check that mentioned location during a session; you'll see the temp files.

When you save the project they get interlaced in the project and a backup of the original is created, and then they get cleaned up (usually), but temp files do exist during a recording/editing session in RB.

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Last edited by rharv; 09/18/18 01:18 PM.

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For those whom are complaining about regeneration time I'll bet you never worked with tape. It would take say 20 minutes to load a song/game only to have it crash at the 19th minute. So you rewind, start it again, and hope that it was just an anomaly.

Or you never had a 5 minute 10 track song that only used external hard synths. It would take 5 minutes for each track to get recorded to your DAW, thus it would take about one hour to complete the transition.

Having done the tape thing and occasionally doing the external hard synth thing I don't complain about a few minutes of regeneration time. YMMV.


Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.

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rharv.. Temp or not, they are loaded from a directory on the hard drive, not from memory. (That was confirmed by PG) It is a BIG mystery to me, why they did not make a choice to work with realtracks that are used in the project from memory once they are selected in the project. I believe most of PCs with 8-16gb RAM should handle that option just fine.

Mario, I remember good old tape days pretty well and computers that run on tapes and even know what perfocards and perfotapes are smile

There is overall huge lag in BIAB. To some it feels ok, probably because they got used to it and find all kinds of excuses to justify it. I would prefer it to run much faster, at speeds of modern software. But who am I to judge? Just opinion of how it feels to me.

Different animal, vArranger. Initial startup that takes about 15-20 seconds, to fully load 12gb of sound content into memory, but then it flies.

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rharv, I had to think about this because it's been quite a while. Yes, RB uses temp files but it doesn't allow you to save them with your current project so when you go to save your SEQ file it just saves it. There's is no option asking you what you want done with those files.

What Audition does is keep all your edit files readily accessible as you're working so you can make a change like cutting and pasting a piece of audio and it happens at the speed of your mouse click. I used to think, wow this Audition is so much faster than RB but it really isn't.

In Audition if you're moving audio around on a 16 track project over several hours you could have over a hundred of those temp files or maybe they're virtual instance program files, dunno. When you're finished and you want to do a final save you can't without telling it what you want done with those files individually. Flush is the main option and it can take some real time to flush a hundred files because they're not simply being deleted, each edit is now being rendered permanently. RB is doing that render as you work so at the end it's already done, all you do is hit save.

It's these sorts of things that makes it so difficult to compare DAW's. They all do things differently and it can take a part time user like most of us here years to figure all that out. You think this one is better than that one because you haven't figured how that other one really works yet.

Bob


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"part time user like most of us here years to figure all that out"

Maybe it is partially because it was/is written a bit clunky...just maybe a little?

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You have a PM.


Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.

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Originally Posted By: Rustyspoon#

"part time user like most of us here years to figure all that out"

Maybe it is partially because it was/is written a bit clunky...just maybe a little?


Yeah, so what everybody knows it old code. Show me a piece of music software that isn't. I guess all I'm basically saying is all this has been discussed before many times, just use the Forum Search function. Once you've found a 10 page thread on this stuff if there's still something new you want to add, feel free. A new post will bump a multiyear old thread right back to the top of the list.

As for other music software visit the Cakewalk forums, Studio One forums, Cubase forums, Pro Tools forums and any other DAW forums and see what those users say. Same stuff, different flavor. They all have issues. So does Apple stuff, Microsoft stuff, business software and any other kind of software you can think of.

I think the Studio One developers said it right. They're all ex Cubase people and they said that Cubase is (or was) also very old code with tons of legacy stuff built in and most of the issues cannot be fixed without a complete rewrite which is very expensive. That cost would, of course get passed on to the users. I think it's the same thing here with PG.

Nobody here has said these programs can't be improved, the question is how and is it feasible.

Bob


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"A new post will bump a multiyear old thread right back to the top of the list. "

No discussion usually happens at cemeteries. I will enjoy those quiet hours when my turn comes smile

Bob, an interesting thought... Most people who answered my posts gave their essence, a weighted perspective on the stuff that had been talked about and scattered all around for years in various places under various threads. And lucky me got a thin, but very tasty piece of that cake (Thank you folks who helped!). In short period of time, I gathered a ton of useful knowledge about the program / background and community. It is good to know that some people are willing to help and explain things that might seem trivial to some.


"how and is it feasible"
of course it is. Nothing is impossible. Maybe not overnight. Got to be brave, that's all.

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Originally Posted By: Rustyspoon#
Sorry, one more:

5) Is there a good reason why chords can not be entered straight from midi controller, is there a way to bypass "CTRl+Enter" when entering them from controller?


You could use midi to qwerty (see Tips n Tricks) to send Ctrl+Enter (and <L R>) from an assigned midi key, or AHK to send it with the middle mouse button.

I could probably add that to the chord picker tool with AHK as there is some MIDI IN support.
How would you need it to work ?

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pipeline, Thanks for the offer! It is not crucial, I was just wondering what is the true reason for not to being able to enter chords right from keyboard or from loopBe1?

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Quote:
Is there a good reason why chords can not be entered straight from midi controller, is there a way to bypass "CTRl+Enter" when entering them from controller?


Can't speak for programming decisions by PGMusic, but it seems to the reason is so that you can select the chord you actually want from a list of 4 possibilities, rather than just accepting the first interpretation.


John

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jford, by 4 possibilities you mean beats in the bar?

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No, I mean that when you enter a chord on your keyboard, you can potentially get up to 4 possibilities for what you played.

From the user manual:

Quote:
Enter Chords Using a MIDI Controller Keyboard

If you have a MIDI controller keyboard, you can use it to enter chords into Band-in-a-Box.

1. Play a chord on your MIDI keyboard, and then type Ctrl+Enter. The chord will be entered into the Chord Sheet at the current highlight cell position.

2. Another method allows you to choose alternate chords. From the Window | MIDI Chord Detection menu item, you will see this window:

When you play chords, Band-in-a-Box shows you the chord name and suggests alternates that you can choose from. Typing Ctrl+Enter enters the first selection and advances the highlight cell by ½ bar. To place an alternate chord in the Chord Sheet, click on the "Enter" button beside the chord you want.


I would suggest entering a feature request on the wish list if you wish to have it automatically enter the chords if you use method 1. And I suspect the reason they don't already do it is because you are probably the first one to request it.

And see image below:

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John

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John, thank you for very detailed explanation!

I am already afraid to post "birthday wishes" to the wishlist not to awake green giants smile
In reality, yes I believe there should be an option of just "chording" things easy way and then fool around with it once it is more or less laid out.

I feel there also should be an option to be able to see and enter chords to the 4 (3.etc.) beats in the bar straight, not through the menu or ",". So the bars are divided by beats that are able to accept changes. Again a mystery for me.

Something like Pipeline's chord picker that is fully integrated and has an option to enter chords straight from controller would be ideal. Hopefully somebody at PG realizes that his tool is very useful and should be included in the program.

Thank you,
Mike.

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You can do that with www.RapidComposer.com it will enter the chords from your midi keys as it plays, it's on special til 24th. It will run in VSTi mode in BB. You can then export and import to BB.
Sorry after years n years n years of wishing in the well and suggesting features that don't happen I just immediately look for workarounds. PG is in a bit of a time warp so you need to allow a 10-20 year difference.

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Maybe I'm missing something here, something I just don't understand that could be really cool.

Here's how oh don't know 99.5% of users enter chords.

The first set of instructions is for two chords per bar.

1. Put your cursor in the first half of Bar 1.
2. Type in the chord eg C7. Hit enter.
3. Type in the chord in the second half of the bar. Hit enter.
4. Rinse and repeat.

Now for 4 chords per bar.

1. Put your cursor in the first half of Bar 1.
2. Type in your chord eg C7 BUT also hit comma.
3 Type in your second chord (beat 2) of the bar. Hit enter.
4 Type in the third chord and hit comma.
5. Type in the fourth chord and hit enter.

Now you guys are also talking about chord types, right? Have you looked up the keyboard shortcuts for that? eg the letter J for a Maj7? Or for a sharp (#) no need to hit the shift key for 3, you just hit 3 and Biab knows it's a sharp.

This is as brain dead easy as it gets. It sounds to me like all this is about reinventing the wheel. There are little conventions you have to learn like if you want a G raised 9 chord you can't type in G#9 you have to type in G7#9. Is that so difficult to figure out?

A thing to remember is Biab is based on midi, all midi as far as notation, entering chords and chord names are concerned. Biab also follows standard musical convention. You can have a basic simple chord (to you) called several different names and they all can be technically correct. Like a C13 also being Gm9. Why? Because the arrangement could have a passing G for the bass note for one beat so from a midi point of view that chord changes to the Gm9 even though "everybody knows" it's still a C13. You can take all the relatively basic chords like 7ths, flat or sharp 5's flat or sharp 9's etc and by throwing in a different bass note change them to all kinds of very weird looking chord names.

Big band charts are notorious for that because the horns can have have tons of accidentals and a total nerdy and picky music transcriber can write out something like Em7b5#11 A7b13 to a Dm whatever to a G whatever when all it really is is a basic Em A, Dm G in the key of C turnaround. A good player will ignore all that kind of stuff and just play the correct chord.

I have some downloaded Biab songs where someone wrote out all those extended chords and probably expected Biab to somehow play all that crap. This is one reason for the Jazz Down the chords function and now the "simple arrangement" functions. Or, if you want to experiment let Biab do the Jazz Up the chords and it can give you some interesting (or not) chords.

This brings up another point. Biab is NOT designed to play exactly what you want it to play based on specific chord extensions you put in. It doesn't work that way. Look at the advertising. It talks about Biab being an INTELLIGENT musical program. It is SUPPOSED to take what you give it and interpret it somewhat like real musicians would do in a band.

When good players like Matt or Herb talk about Biab being a great songwriting tool it's because they're playing all the important and essential parts of their original songs. Biab does not create that stuff for you. It gives you some great sounding backing or bed tracks to back you up to allow you the player to do your thing.

Bob


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Bob, I see where you are comming from. And your thoughts are valid.
You are right, it is not "difficult" to input the chords as it stands.
But it could be greatly improved. Particulary chord builder. It just sucks how slow and not intuitive it is. I do my backing tracks mostly by ear, so for me, that is probably much more important than to you.

I believe the culprit of misunderstanding is that you are expressing your point of view basing on workflow that you are familiar and comfortable with, not taking in the account that there are many other interesting (and some would argue better) approaches in the wild.

P.S. If I will have some spare time I will make a sketch sometime in next few weeks and post it to wishlist of a chord builder that I think would be a better choice than current.

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Old dogs new tricks ?

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Originally Posted By: Rustyspoon#
I believe the culprit of misunderstanding is that you are expressing your point of view basing on workflow that you are familiar and comfortable with, not taking in the account that there are many other interesting (and some would argue better) approaches in the wild.


In the wild what? Of course I described what I'm familiar with. How did I become familiar with it in the first place? Because that's how Biab WORKS. It's in the manual and Help files man, I didn't just think it up.

What you're talking about goes here Wishlist

You can post all the suggestions you want there and the developers will read them. Who cares what we think in this thread, it's the developers who matter not us. If you really care then go there and post.

People have gotten on me about gently chastising noob's for posting stuff in the wrong forum when the rules of each individual forum are clearly spelled out in the FAQ at the top. I actually read those FAQ's years ago before I wrote my first post.

I know what you're thinking. If that's the case why hasn't anybody said anything until now? Well I used to but too many long time regulars including some beta testers just start replying and answering questions anyway, that's why. It's like what's the point of the FAQ's if even long time regulars ignore them? I gave up and joined in but now I'm telling you about it because this is getting ridiculous.

This is a perfect example of why things should be in the correct forums. People interested in comments about what's wrong with these programs and discussions about possible fixes are not going to be looking in the Beginners forum.

What do you think a beginners forum is for? Is it a forum for you to go on and on about all the things you don't like about the program, how it's all old code and should be rewritten? Stupid me, I think a beginners forum is for a beginner who's having trouble with the basics like how to get the program to make sound and how to enter a chord and hit Play. Illogical, I know. If only they had another forum for more advanced topics. Oh, they do it's the Band in a Box for Windows forum! Wow, what a concept.

Oh btw, here is the long thread about why isn't Biab 64 bit and on the first page is Peters answer about that which I mentioned earlier 64 bit

Bob


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Bob is the local law officer here in the forum, telling you what can be done, what can't be done, where it can be done, where it can't be done.
It's been going on for years n years. If you stay on his level he will leave you alone, but if you dare go beyond that look out.
I think it's those few too many drinks that makes for long pontificating posts.
Again old dogs new tricks ? I don't think so.
It's a lot of the reason why BB is stuck in a time warp in this little neck of the woods.
You need to encourage new users with new ideas, not put them off from ever coming back, that happens so many times here if you look back at post.
A new user arrives and suggest ideas to improve thing and he is jumped on like a ton of bricks leaving only a few post and never heard from again.
Why does this culture prevail ???

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Originally Posted By: Pipeline
You can do that with www.RapidComposer.com it will enter the chords from your midi keys as it plays, it's on special til 24th. It will run in VSTi mode in BB. You can then export and import to BB.
Sorry after years n years n years of wishing in the well and suggesting features that don't happen I just immediately look for workarounds. PG is in a bit of a time warp so you need to allow a 10-20 year difference.



Why not simply play, record and save your song or sequence of chords you want to import into the BIAB Chord chart as a MIDI file and import the MIDI file? BIAB will automatically decode the MIDI chords. I don't understand the need for a program like RapidComposer to be an additional step in decoding the chords from your midi keyboard as it plays.




Last edited by Charlie Fogle; 09/25/18 01:28 AM.

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You need to encourage new users with new ideas, not put them off from ever coming back, that happens so many times here if you look back at post.


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Bob, until couple of people shuffled the cards on this post it was simply a noob question #5 on the first page. John(Jford) explained / answered it clearly. If they (some posts) bother you so deeply, maybe... just do not read them or reply to them. Use this time for better causes, like to make music?

Sorry, but I like to do some things differently from you. Some of my wishes iterlace with items on my question list that is why it is appropriate to have a converstion in already established thread, rather than starting a new one.

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Originally Posted By: Rustyspoon#

Sorry, but I like to do some things differently from you. Some of my wishes interlace with items on my question list that is why it is appropriate to have a converstion in already established thread, rather than starting a new one.

Frankly I think that this is a great thread. A user has asked questions and offered reasonable suggestions as to how the program might be improved. I'm definitely in favor of that approach rather than saying "It's done that way because it was always done that way".

I think any program developer needs to continually look for ideas if 'that way' could be improved. Such a vision on continual improvements has meant that we don't still have Netscape as a browser and Word-Perfect as a word processor (OK, and DOS and an O/S).


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It really amazes me how folks who can write quite well don't seem to understand basic English. Reread what I wrote earlier in this thread. Show me where I said "It's done that way because it was always done that way" or even implied that. Here's a very basic question to answer:

What is Band in a Box and what's it's purpose?

Here's another one for Mike:

Did you read what Peter wrote about 64 bit?

I guess if there's no 64 bit version coming that means "It's done that way because it was always done that way" right? No underlying reasons WHY things are done that way?

Bob


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Bob,

I loved some of those tips you had on chord entry. As a songwriter, it is what I do all day. Can you point me to any links, manuals, anything else you might have along the lines of the solid comments you made about chord entry.

I have put together a word document with many of the shortcuts and nomenclatures you need to know in BIAB but I am always look for more if you have stuff YOU really love and use. Feel free to PM me if you want to email. I am building my library. Thanks for anything you have.

On Bob's posts:

I have noticed that from time to time there tend to be a lot of posts that make grand insinuations that PG Music does not care about improving products and is stuck in the past. Quite frankly, some of the posts sound asinine and come from people who have never posted a tune. Yes, yes, we know maybe you are writing but just have not posted. But if you are writing, can't you at least post one so we can get an idea of what you are doing with the program? We are all trying to learn. How are we supposed to understand what is bugging you so much if you never used the tools to write and then post a song so we can see why and how the program is letting you down so much? It is like saying "I am sitting here on my butt staring at the screen and I would write a great song if only BIAB had an easier way for me to add a diminished 7th chord, although I never really use them anyway."

If someone comes out with a strand of illogical sentences that really do not make sense, with a strident and condemning tone (Oh when oh when will PG Music ever get its act together!!!) is Bob not allowed to use the exact same tone in rebutting the complaint?

Every single day of my life I spend many hours in front of mixing board counting my lucky stars that I have real track possibilities to fill in a certain mix, and am in awe of certain capabilities that BIAB brings, though I know there is room for improvement, of course there is.

But many (not all, but many) of the complaints that have been offered so far are pretty vague and nebulous--and it is not how programmers work.

It has been my experience that any time I make a suggestion to PG Music, they receive it warmly and add it to their list if it makes any sense at all. Even if it does not make complete sense, they receive it warmly and try and see if they can translate the suggestion to something they might actually be able to do. I remember calling Kent about a glitchy problem with Real Track exports in Band in a Box 2018 earlier this year and they got right on it and it was fixed by the end of the week. That is pretty lightning fast in the programming world. They seem to be pretty responsive people to me.

So my advice is this:

If the normal routes of communication--emailing PG, adding things to wish lists, even calling PG does not work, then call up Peter Gannon himself, ask for a job, tell him you know better than them, beef up your programming skills, go to Canada and write some code.

Maybe then by 2025 you will be able to produce a song: or not.


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David / Bob.

I you do not like critique or some opinions, you do not have to follow the threads you find not to your tastes. Thats all. You do not see issues, great for you. Nobody is making you do things you do not want to do, right?

Some of us have different opinions on things.

P.S. David, if Peter Gannon, trully wanted tec with proper skills to modernise BIAB, coherent with the line of 2018 software, he would have no problem of finding right people in Canada or elsewhere.

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Sure, I can say the moon is made out of cheese, but that doesn't mean it is.

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Doesn't hurt. Let the cheese moon rise! Whatever tickles your pickle David.

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With RapidComposer you can create the chord track bit by bit with keyboard input then when you have it how you like import into BB. A lot of musicians don't know what chord they are playing so keyboard input is a good idea.
I just try to find workarounds to give the user more options.
I gave a guitarist a Roland guitar pickup to know the chords she's playing.
RapidComposer Exports the Chords as MIDI markers because I ask them to add that same with MusicLab RealGuitar I ask them, I have been asking PG for 10 years.
It just makes it easy to get chords from one app to the other.
To get chord midi markers in midi from BB I have to export as MusicXML import that to Reaper then Reaper will write the midi chord marker from the chords in the MusicXML.
If I export MusicXML chords from Reaper everything reads it but BB.

And RapidComposer running as a VSTi in BB refitting midi riffs with keyswitches from Ample Riffer.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/k7q8ikg7e3pgx0g/Biab-RC-Ample-Bass.mp4?dl=0



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Thanks for the explanation Pipeline. That makes sense and I see where RapidComposer would have its uses to some musicians.

To simply fill in the BIAB Chord Sheet, regardless if you know the chords or not, if you can play a melody or chord progression that sounds good to you, play it, save it to a midi file and import the midi and BIAB will automatically decode the chords and populate the chord chart in seconds. That will bypass the issue of BIAB not reading part markers. Don't you think that's very straight forward and a feature of BIAB rather than a work around? You can also accomplish a populated chord chart using audio and the Audio Chord Wizard which would bypass the midi conversion and the cost of the Roland guitar pickup and setup. RapidComposer does appear to be ideal outside of BIAB to create some complex pieces in step fashion very quickly. I appreciate you taking time to provide the explanation and gifs. Very helpful.


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The only problem with midi chord output/input is is correcting the non basic chords it picks up wrong, there are so many errors in the BB Chord Output midi as well so you spend a lot of time correcting, these are just a recent couple, in RC i can go and add/edit any chord easily but BB you have to hope and wait.

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Pipeline,
Thank you for taking time and posting videos. I have tried Rapid Composer some months ago. It is interesting program indeed. It has some very nice theory based power features, but for some reason it felt a bit "transitional" to me. Not in the sense that it lacked features, quite opposite I would prefer it to be simpler, just sort of basic "chord scratchpad" with some assistance.

Scales, inversions, slash chords, circle of fifth, suggestions and basic timeline, just so you can enter 3+ chords and just hear it on the fly and possibility of entering chords from controller directly.
I would stop it here. I know Rapid composer is able to do those things, but it is a bit obscure and not in one place. And you are right about BIAB translating chords wrong from other virtual controllers...

There is also a "thing" called Captain Chords 2.0, but you have to be connected to "their" database and I do not feel happy about it, but the prog. does look very interesting.

I guess I am looking for a software that will hit the sweetspot for my uses. I do not hibernate waiting for it, life goes on smile One such "sweetspot" program for me is vArranger. Together with BIAB they kick @ss, but on the dark side, they both badly need some modernization/development enema.

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Originally Posted By: jazzmammal
It really amazes me how folks who can write quite well don't seem to understand basic English. Reread what I wrote earlier in this thread. Show me where I said "It's done that way because it was always done that way" or even implied that.
Bob

Huh? Yes, I wrote that quoted text, so I presume the response is directed at me, but where did I name any specific person to have said anything? I didn't see any name in anything I typed. I simply made a generalist statement.

I wrote, and I quote verbatim: "I'm definitely in favor of that approach rather than saying "It's done that way because it was always done that way"."

I was looking to how systems could / should always undergo continual improvement. I understand basic English. I never implied anything to anyone in particular. I made a generalist statement.

Maybe some forum members have become a little too edgy. Maybe feeling that they need to take charge of deciding how things have to be be done.

I tried to be constructive. I was being objective rather than subjective. I've worked as hard as the best here to get improvements made. My legacy is testament to that.

I'm disappointed with being unnecessarily jumped on. I certainly didn't deserve that response.


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Originally Posted By: VideoTrack
[quote=jazzmammal]
Huh? Yes, I wrote that quoted text, so I presume the response is directed at me, but where did I name any specific person to have said anything? I didn't see any name in anything I typed. I simply made a generalist statement.


I'm the one being jumped on here so of course I thought that statement was directed at me. Sorry for misunderstanding you. You're one of my favorite people here, you do a lot to help out.

Now, let's comment about what Pipeline just wrote about Biab having issues with chord detection.

Mike and Pipeline again the implication in those comments imply this is a problem with Biab, If that's not what you meant to imply, then sorry again. This is a problem with forums, nobody is face to face. All these little perceived slights and personal judgements get resolved instantly face to face but when it's in writing on a forum all kinds of bad stuff can happen.

Anyway, we're talking about midi right now. Chords are not part of the midi standard. There is zero chord information in a midi file at all. Biab is actually one of the first programs if not the very first to offer ANY kind of midi chord detection. I alluded to that earlier in this thread but didn't expand on it.

Basically how this works is Biab starts by looking at the key sig of the file. Now, that alone can be a huge problem because it's very common for a user to forget to to enter the key sig, the song is just using the default key of C. If it's supposed to be E, that alone will mess up the chord detection. If you're trying to use a downloaded midi file you found on the internet and you're trying to figure out the chords and the key sig is wrong well, that ain't Biab's fault. The first thing a user has to do is correct the key sig before you try do anything with a midi file.

Assuming the key sig is correct the next thing it looks at is the notes displayed on the major beats of the song. If it's in 4/4 and the bass is simple on 1 and 3 of the beat then Biab looks at that and the key sig and decides what the basic chord is by assuming that bass note is the root. Then if it sees a 3rd and dominant 7th in the scale of the root it will display a E7 as the chord if the key sig is E.

BUT what if on that exact beat the chord is supposed to be the E7 but the melody note is a C? Now you and I and any other musician will assume that's just a passing tone for a singer or lead instrument but Biab doesn't know that, it's just an AI program not a mind reader. What does it see as notes on that beat? It sees E, G#, B, D AND C. It's likely to display an E7+ or augmented and that will cause you to have to correct the chord.

Nothing to be done about that because again, there are NO midi instructions to tell the program the chord is just a plain old E7. What you can do is to not have Biab use all the tracks for chord detection, try using just the bass and guitar or keys tracks and leave out the melody track but even then guitar and piano can easily be playing some passing notes too on one of the major beats so again Biab takes all the notes and tries to come up with a chord name for them.

This stuff isn't perfect and chord information is one of many things people have been hoping for in the upcoming new midi standard that's being developed right now.

Bob


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Good explanation, Bob. I wish they would standardize the implementation of Music XML and that would solve these things too.


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Thanks and wait there's more!

I explained a simple basic song in E. What about a complex song with lots of upper extensions like 7b5, sharp 9, 13, sharp 11's etc? And lots of bass harmony notes too.

Songs like that can be a total mess if you're depending on chord detection. To me and maybe there is a better way, don't know but to me if you're working with songs like that you need to have enough musical chops to understand some theory. You understand what a 3-6-2-5 turnaround is and which of those is major and which is minor for example.

Let me stop right here for a sec and clarify something. Mike and Pipeline do you understand that stuff or are you looking for a shortcut for someone who really doesn't understand any theory? They've learned by ear and don't know what they're playing they just know it sounds good. That would change this discussion a lot. Biab works best if a user has some technical understanding of music.

To continue, I don't see how using another program to handle that then paste it in Biab is any faster than simply typing in those changes into the chord grid. Like my little chart earlier you type hit enter, type hit enter and so on. That's it. If you wind up with an arrangement that sounds too complex then that's why Biab has the "Natural Arrangement" button, hit that and it cleans it up.

Even though the chord detection can be off and WAY off in some cases it's still far from useless. Why? Because you still have a complete song laid out in front of you. If it's 48 bars the 48 bars are all there, you're not starting from scratch on bar 1 and building it out. Your song is being displayed as a complete song and all you have to do is correct some of the chords. That's got to be faster than doing what you guys are talking about IF you understand some basic things.

Bob


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If BB has to be used the way Bob says and can't be improved and it's just how it is then I give up as I'm just a bit worn out from trying to improve BB as I gave up with RB as it took it's toll on me, maybe it's what others have said "you're flogging a dead horse" ! maybe I need a new horse or a new dog that can learn tricks.

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I think of the Audio Chord Wizard as being similar in user functionality and technical understanding to a DSLR Camera. It's a very complex but versitile device and allows a novice user with limited to no technical knowledge to take great pictures right out of the box using auto mode. They don't have a clue to how it happened, but they're only interested in the end result and accept a percentage of waste pictures as a cost of convenience.

The same camera in the hands of an expert is where the magic happens. They abandon auto and have the technical skills and experience to make the same camera do things a novice most times has no idea the camera could even do such a complex picture.

The ACW works similarly. Load a song, press F8 and hope for the best. Sometimes they get great results but often not so good.

It's a great tool if it's worth the time to learn how to manually manipulate it and learn all the features. As a hobbyist and casual user, it's likely easier to be like the novice photographer. Making it easier doesn't necessarily improve it. Mastering it does...


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Originally Posted By: Charlie Fogle
Making it easier doesn't necessarily improve it. Mastering it does...


Quote of the year.

Bob


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Oh knights, the protectors of honor,
the saviors of women and youth.
your armor, as shiny as mirror,
your voice is authentic and smooth

You walk through the fields and the valleys
Inspecting the lands of your king
You haughtily shushing at gypsies
Who dance by the fire and sing.

You shiver from scenes that's unholy
And twitch from the words of untruth.
You catch cannonballs like a goalie
Outsmarting the snakes like mongoose.

The castle stands tall on horizon
Its turrets are touching bird's wings
And nobody knows if the master is able
To polish his crown from kinks.

Lay down your sword tired soldier
And drink sacred goblet of wine.
The world is not older nor younger
It's yours, as much, as it's mine.

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Originally Posted By: Pipeline
maybe I need a new horse or a new dog that can learn tricks.


Sure if there was a viable competitor but there isn't. Biab stands alone. I don't know what to tell you other than just use it and be happy. And keep posting suggestions in the Wishlist and hope for the best.

Big things can happen. Remember the tempo sync issue with Real Band? I was probably the biggest voice pushing for that for over 10 years and I finally stopped talking about it because it seemed a waste of time but suddenly a few years ago...Voila! Ralph at Rayzoon (Jamstix) got in touch with Peter and they discovered it was a fairly simple fix in RB's VST implementation and it was fixed. You can now use Jamstix and other drum VSTi's that can create their own drum parts. That was one the biggest bug fixes in PG's history.

But in spite of my frustration with that issue I never gave a thought to giving up on these programs. They're way too cool.

Bob


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I'm always excited when I find out Peter Gannon or others from PG Music are attending NAMM or Musikmesse. One of the best things about trade shows is the opportunity to interact with your peers. Chance and by design meetings allow conversations that otherwise might never occur. Also, it doesn't hurt for PG Music to raise awareness of the programs' capabilities.

Some of the videos released showing trade show product demonstrations are flat out awesome!


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Originally Posted By: Jim Fogle
One of the best things about trade shows is the opportunity to interact with your peers.


Jim... I think most of the "peers" are here. Honestly, I do not see much interaction between PG dev team and their dear followers who are generously contributing ideas... Like a kind nurse begging glutton:
-Darling, do not eat this horrible junk food, you will live longer... But surely glutton knows better than that.

Sorry, sad thoughts overflowing the tank.

Back to the topic. There is a very nicely written VST it is called Scaler. It is available through Plugin Boutique (demo is there as well). I think it is awesome for chord exploration, voicing, inversions and of course scales. Also you can bind chords to keys and whole load of other very cool stuff. I figured out how to use it in DAW., but not sure if I can use it in BIAB since it is not a stand alone... and not really an "instrument" I tried loading it as one (as instrument) into BIAB (32Bit VST) it did not work. Does anybody know how to make such animal work with BIAB? If it possible at all? I would appreciate feedback on this very much.

Thank you,
Mike.

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Hi Mike,

Unfortunately I haven't found a way to download any user manual and the installation stuff I found isn't product specific so I'm winging it. I apologize in advance if my comments or questions are not specific enough to help.

Are you using the AAX or VST version? Are you using the full or trial version? How is the trial version limited if you're using the trial version?

VST Version 1.5 includes 4 new internal sounds: Electric Guitar, String Ensemble, Acoustic Guitar and Harmonic Guitar. Have you tried to use any of them?

I noticed Plugin Boutique requires iLok. Do they require the usb fob or can you use the iLok software manager? Do you have everything up-to-date with iLok?

You mentioned you used the trial version in a DAW. What daw and what steps did you take to install and use it in a project?

What steps did you take to use it with Band-in-a-Box? Just to make sure no one gets foot-in-mouth disease is your computer a Mac or PC? What operating system?

Looking at the support section of their website I notice there are several software programs (DAWs) that PlugIn Boutique programs will not communicate with. They suggest a $99 BlueCat midi utility program that can be used as a workaround.

Also. I'll point out you may want to ask the question in a new thread that is dedicated to the question. More eyes may see the question so the question will have a better chance of receiving an appropriate answer.

Finally, have you discussed the issue with PlugIn Boutigue support? They have an online contact service +++ HERE +++


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Jim, I have full version. I grabbed it some time ago on their flash sale.
But before that, I tried it as a demo. It did not require ilok. In DAW I am using 64bit VST, but for BIAB I installed 32Bit VST, which I can not get to work. VST simply does not start/load..

Since we talked about "chord builder" and inputting the chords into BIAB I thought I would continue with this thread as it is related...
Just does not feel right to consider spending $100 for bluecatmidi program. I do not need full power features of the wonderful Scaler in BIAB. I just want to use it as a reference for finding right chords for the job. I do not need complex routing to transfer the chords to bars... as Bob mentioned (if I understood correctly) chord structure is not a part of MIDI protocol. So I will write them manually to bars.

I think I know how workaround can be achieved... by using some sort of standalone VST host and use internal sounds of Scaler as reference, keeping both programs (BIAB and VST host+ Scaler) open. I was hoping it can be "plugged" directly into BIAB...

P.S. I think the Scaler surpasses "chord builder" in many (MANY!) ways, except of course, for entering chords directly to bars. Just an opinion.

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So, here is the chord entry tool for BIAB. A sub-menu shows all related chords, and it is even kind enough to show the intervals and notes. It's like a music class, and better than 100 theory books or chord chart books that you would have to flip through.

Extremely efficient. All you need.

You sit down to write a song. You audition chords, beat by beat, or measure by measure, even new ones you have never heard of. No that does not work. Let me try another one. Hey that is cool! I think I have a progression going. But hey, how do I play that chord on the guitar? I see, you are giving me the notes BIAB. Thanks! Got it! Sure am glad I learned the notes on my instrument before I tried to play it!

Now here I go: Intro, V, Chorus chords done. Super.

Go to song form dialog. Select style, song form, click, render print.

If you are a songwriter, what else on God's green earth could you possibly be looking for?

I absolutely do not understand what people are asking for that "isn't here" and is "too complicated"--and why--if writing a song is your goal.

Really.

Not trying to be sarcastic.

I just don't get it. It's all right there.

And it's so easy.



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David, thanks for taking the time, but I know how it is done in BIAB.

When you say: "I just don't don't get it. It's all right there."
All it tells me you have not tried anything better. It is like if you went to the same gas station that serves pizza year after year, you would develop a "taste" for that specific pizza. Does it have all the nutrients of most of other pizzas? Sure it does! Will it fill you up? Sure it will! But is it a good pizza??? Can you compare it to a good Italian pizza place pie? Well, you can say that they both round (or square), have tomato sauce and cheese on the top and you are really confused why some people would want something different... And to some your argument is valid.

P.S. If you have some time look into Scaler VST. Demo is free. Maybe then you will see, what BIAB is missing smile

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Originally Posted By: Rustyspoon#

When you say: "I just don't don't get it. It's all right there."
All it tells me you have not tried anything better.



Sure I have. I have used plenty of other tools. Among them: my brain. Yes, I have used my own brain, plugged in my guitar or turned on my keyboard and played.

smile

Bottom line though: It is just that reading some of the complaints about what people want and can't find, it seems they have not actually looked at what the program does. That simple. It is all I am trying to say.

As for Scaler, I looked at it. I guess it is cool and I will check it out if I have time, but ultimately I don't get the point all that much.

In my opinion there is no magical program or gadget anywhere that is going to make you a better musician or producer, really, though I am a huge fan of Real Tracks, because they are special, being, well real tracks.

As for the rest of it, the smallest amount of musical theory, ingenuity and craftsmanship will get you a long way, if you know how to write a good song, and manipulate audio or midi through the five billion libraries currently available. And if you know how to mix.

So I guess I wish you the best of luck in your journey to find what you are looking for, in terms of tools and software, and I sincerely mean that, I really do. And I hope it helps you produce good music you can share with us so we can share in your sense of accomplishment.

I like to see people happily producing music, and so far, BIAB has given me everything I need that I don't produce with my own fingers.

Best of luck.

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"I think the Scaler surpasses "chord builder" in many (MANY!) ways, except of course, for entering chords directly to bars." AND "for BIAB I installed 32Bit VST, which I can not get to work. VST simply does not start/load."

I find that to be kind of a 'deal breaker' since you can accomplish the task in the BIAB "chord builder" quicker than you can say VST three times in a row. In your particular case it doesn't matter if it has better features in one way or a thousand if it doesn't work.


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I am glad that you are able to use your brain. I try to use mine once in a while too, with moderate rate of success.

There are no magical tools (programs), sure. But some are miles apart in their built quality and effectiveness.

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Originally Posted By: Rustyspoon#
I am glad that you are able to use your brain. I try to use mine once in a while too, with moderate rate of success.

There are no magical tools (programs), sure. But some are miles apart in their built quality and effectiveness.


Exactly. Glad to see you're coming around that BIAB is a true one of a kind musical software tool. ;0)


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Charlie,
Scaler is a wonderfully written piece of software and something is telling me that you have not tried it, so I feel you are arguing blindly.

For me music is more about "being creative" rather than as you said: "accomplish the task"

And just as you said it, chord builder of BIAB is about "accomplish the task"...
were Scaler is a tool focused more on creativity, learning process, ease of use, exploration, fast, elegant, etc. I found an awkward but working way to have both programs open, so lucky me.

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You're right. Not only have I not tried it, I'd never heard of it before this thread. Saying that, it's not likely to be in my creative future. I'm glad it works for you, awkward as it may be. I look forward to hearing some of your music one day here on the forum or even on the radio. I wish you the best either way.


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Charlie,
there is always Google, Youtube and wast resources of internet available at your finger tips to gather some useful knowledge, other than from this forum. Works well for me.

By the way, somebody talked about Scaler on this forum. Thread was several month young so I did not want to revive it.

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Oh my, I seemed to have underwhelmed you with my skills and resources knowledge. But just to ease your mind;

Liam Neeson from the movie 'Taken' 2008: " I can tell you I don't have money, but what I do have are a very particular set of skills. Skills I have acquired over a very long career.... "

Walter Brennan from Guns of 'Will Sonnett' 1967: "No brag -- Just fact"




Charlie Fogle from today: "Me Too..." <Grin> wink


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Charlie,
I did not ask for your list of achievements, honestly I care less.
This was about you arguing of something that you have no clue about. That's all.

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Hi

I have followed this long and tortured thread now for 7 pages.
I now find myself wondering about the OP s original intentions .

What started of as a few simple questions from a newbie that were soon answered on the first page , it seems to have developed into a long string of loosely related topics
That in The end members agree to disagree on,
On the way some quite strong opinions being expressed, and quite a few argumentative and unkind post as well.
Not up to this forums normal good conduct .

For me to even feel the need to say this surely shows things are not quite right here.
But I just cant get my head around what its all about.

Please don’t say I don’t have to read it, I have learned a lot from reading post on this forum and normally enjoy the experience.
Some what perplexed
Wooden spoon Mike Head. smile

Last edited by Mike Head; 10/02/18 04:43 AM.

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I agree completely Mike Head. I had decided to drop from this thread with my last comment and only post now to stress my last post was in jest and not anger or rebuttal. I'm not sure why my ambivalence toward Scaler turned the conversation somewhat personal but the fact it did left me perplexed, not offended.


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I find it a bit obscure when grown up people argue about something that they have never seen or tried before.

Most of nonsense of this post relates to initial question #5:

"Is there a good reason why chords can not be entered straight from midi controller, is there a way to bypass "CTRl+Enter" when entering them from controller"

It was answered in depth. However, when I brought Scaler VST to attention, arguing that it is far more advanced and user friendly tool to explore progressions, etc. than "chord builder" of BIAB, post was met with something completely different than "support", "interest" or even "weighted opinion" by couple of veteran members.

How can you judge of experience that you never had? Beats me.

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I re-read this thread, trying not to be swayed by the snark, and concentrating on the content.

While Scaler doesn't offer me anything in particular, I viewed the three videos that come up about it in a minimal Google search. Here's the one I think might give anyone the best idea of what it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVMkssoqyHM

I do agree that some aspects of Scaler's chord entry are useful but I'm not yet sure how they apply to BIAB. John Ford gave the answer about the MIDI Chord Detection feature of BIAB that I would have given, namely that there are four choices offered and since I compose jazz I wouldn't want any of these to be chosen automatically. Since I know music theory, sometimes I don't accept any of the four. Nevertheless, I think the MIDI Chord Detection in BIAB is one of its best and most powerful features, as well as the most underrated.


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Jim, Charlie and Matt,

Thanks for the midi chord detection tips for BIAB chord entry using a keyboard. I had never really looked at that or used it.

Way cool. Wicked cool in fact.

At least this thread made me take notice of that, so for that it was worth it.

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I too want to keep the tone positive. I looked at other products and they all have great merit in their own right.

But I then questioned if BiaB wants to or should have the capabilities to also integrate all of these other quality products.

After all, it's purpose is to be a music accompaniment program. I don't think its primary intention is to teach music theory, or to tutor music rudiments, or to advise what chords are best used in any particular circumstance. There are many other products that can do this now that users can take advantage of separately.

BiaB is already extremely comprehensive in its own right (maybe too comprehensive?) and it supplies a unique market placement.

Fresh ideas are always worthy of consideration, but in reality no 'one product' can ever be 'all products'. Horses for Courses smile .


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Originally Posted By: VideoTrack


But I then questioned if BiaB wants to or should have the capabilities to also integrate all of these other quality products.

After all, it's purpose is to be a music accompaniment program. I don't think its primary intention is to teach music theory, or to tutor music rudiments, or to advise what chords are best used in any particular circumstance. There are many other products that can do this now that users can take advantage of separately.


VideoTrack,

Your posts are always so gentle and helpful I do not want to come across as argumentative but BIAB has had educational roots and offerings since its inception, and continues to add more and more educational components, lessons, and so forth with every release. Also, a college down the road uses BIAB to teach jazz and composition to its music students.

The chord builder tool in and of itself is a jazz teacher if you have the tiniest bit of theory under your belt--and the educational applications are limitless. If you don't want to use Dm7, for example, it will give you 20 other options or so--I don't know the exact count, but it's a lot.

So I do not think it is fair to say BIAB is primarily an accompaniment program though it CAN do that, and does it marvelously, but it does a lot of other things too--like helping you to build an exciting song. Without an exciting song and production, accompaniment, per se will not get you very far.

And not to badger (because that is not my point) but I have seen a lot of stuff out there and I have not seen any programs that are remotely on the level of BIAB for purposes of self-education in chord progressions, composition and arrangement.

Which ones are you talking about?

I am asking sincerely because I would like to check them out.

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Thank you for your insight and comments. They are worthy of consideration.

The point I am alluding to is that Band In A Box cannot be expected to be Band In a Box and also deliver all features that other not-so-similar products 'individually' deliver.

My example is this: Why should it be challenged because it doesn't also do what 'xyz' or 'abc' other programs can already do?

What it does is great, exceptional in fact, no question. If it could do more that would be a bonus, again no question.

I, for one would like it to do some things better. But we are wrong to expect it to do everything that some other separate products can do, and to criticise it if it cannot. That's all.

It's like picking the best features of every luxury car and condemning another model because it doesn't include every one of those features.

We cannot unfairly judge the product just because it doesn't do everything we would individually like it to deliver.

Anyone is free to develop and introduce their own product if another product doesn't cut it for them.

I hope this clarifies the intention of my post.


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VideoTrack
"My example is this: Why should it be challenged because it doesn't also do what 'xyz' or 'abc' other programs can already do?"

Because that is exactly what progress is all about. It is all about challenges smile

My argument is this: If PG does not have proper resources to progress, or their "progress" is sufficient for some folks here, at least what they (PG) can do is allow for development from third parties like:
Scripting
Proper VST support


That way all people who are satisfied with current state of development can happily stay with that realm and nothing will trigger their emotions, since all the "extra" items will be available by choice, not mandatory. Everybody is happy smile

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Quote:
My argument is this: If PG does not have proper resources to progress, or their "progress" is sufficient for some folks here, at least what they (PG) can do is allow for development from third parties like:


If BIAB were open source, I would agree with you; however, as proprietary software, while this is something they could do, they would also have to consider the quality control aspects that third parties bring to their product, branding issues, etc. That's up to them, and there's no requirement they do that at all. And over the years, there have been some third-party add-ons (BBFinder by Stefano Lazzaretto, Song and Style Librarian by Denis Ladoceur, Song and Style Launcher by Stefan Kuske); granted, many of these have fallen by the wayside, but they were there. Look at the stuff Pipeline has done; would it be nice to have some of that incorporated natively? Sure, but not our decision to make. Look at the GUI recommendations made by VideoTrack (Trevor). All possibilities, but all just suggestions.

As the consumer, you choose whether to buy it or not. If it doesn't meet your needs, don't buy it. If it doesn't do something you want it to do, then suggest it or find something else that does.

It's like saying Apple should open their OS to all PC hardware, because you don't like the model Apple provides.

I'm not saying it couldn't be done or even if it shouldn't be done, but that's a business decision for PGMusic to make based on their business model, not your idea of what their business model should be.

Make suggestions and challenge them; maybe they'll come to pass, maybe they won't. But just complaining and griping because you want a feature and they didn't immediately jump on it isn't productive. We can provide input to them, but in the end, it's their company and their decisions. I suspect PGMusic will be around for many years to come, as they've got a pretty smart guy with innovative ideas at the helm. Some pan out great (RealTracks, RealDrums); some not so much (VideoTracks), but he's not afraid to try new stuff. And if there were no revenue stream, none of that would happen.


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"It's like saying Apple should open their OS to all PC hardware, because you don't like the model Apple provides."

You are right about it, that is why I will never buy Apple product if I really (really!) do not need it.


"Make suggestions and challenge them; maybe they'll come to pass, maybe they won't."

I was under impression that this is exactly what this is about.


"As the consumer, you choose whether to buy it or not. "

Hopefully they will make changes for me to consider next update (or the one after)
P.S. And as a consumer, I believe I might have an opinion or two.... or that is a controlled substance at PG?

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Convenient Ways to Listen to Band-in-a-Box® Songs Created by Program Users!

The User Showcase Forum is an excellent place to share your Band-in-a-Box® songs and listen to songs other program users are creating!

There are other places you can listen to these songs too! Visit our User Showcase page to sort by genre, artist (forum name), song title, and date - each listing will direct you to the forum post for that song.

If you'd rather listen to these songs in one place, head to our Band-in-a-Box® Radio, where you'll have the option to select the genre playlist for your listening pleasure. This page has SoundCloud built in, so it won't redirect you. We've also added the link to the Artists SoundCloud page here, and a link to their forum post.

We hope you find some inspiration from this amazing collection of User Showcase Songs!

Congratulations to the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!

We've just announced the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!

There are 45 winners, each receiving a Band-in-a-Box 2024 UltraPAK! Read the official announcement to see if you've won.

Our User Showcase Forum receives more than 50 posts per day, with people sharing their Band-in-a-Box songs and providing feedback for other songs posted.

Thank you to everyone who has contributed!

Video: Volume Automation in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows®

We've created a video to help you learn more about the Volume Automation options in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows.

Band-in-a-Box® 2024: Volume Automation

www.pgmusic.com/manuals/bbw2024full/chapter11.htm#volume-automation

Video: Audio Input Monitoring with Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows®

We've created this short video to explain Audio Input Monitoring within Band-in-a-Box® 2024, and included some tips & troubleshooting details too!

Band-in-a-Box® 2024: Audio Input Monitoring

3:17: Tips
5:10: Troubleshooting

www.pgmusic.com/manuals/bbw2024full/chapter11.htm#audio-input-monitoring

Video: Enhanced Melodists in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows®!

We've enhanced the Melodists feature included in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows!

Access the Melodist feature by pressing F7 in the program to open the new MultiPicker Library and locate the [Melodist] tab.

You can now generate a melody on any track in the program - very handy! Plus, you select how much of the melody you want generated - specify a range, or apply it to the whole track.

See the Melodist in action with our video, Band-in-a-Box® 2024: The Melodist Window.

Learn even more about the enhancements to the Melodist feature in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/manuals/bbw2024upgrade/chapter3.htm#enhanced-melodist

Band-in-a-Box® 2024 DAW Plugin Version 6: New Features Specifically for Reaper®

New with the DAW Plugin Version 6.0, released with Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows: the Reaper® Panel!

This new panel offers built-in specific support for the Reaper® DAW API allowing direct transfer of Band-in-a-Box® files to/from Reaper® tracks!

When you run the Plugin from Reaper®, there is a panel to set the following options:
-BB Track(s) to send: This allows you to select the Plugin tracks that will be sent Reaper.
-Destination Reaper Track: This lets you select the destination Reaper track to receive media content from the Plugin.
-At Bar: You can select a bar in Reaper where the Plugin tracks should be placed.
-Start Below Selected Track: This allows you to place the Plugin tracks below the destination Reaper track.
-Overwrite Reaper Track: You can overwrite previous content on the destination Reaper track.
-Move to Project Folder: With this option, you can move the Plugin tracks to the Reaper project folder.
-Send Reaper Instructions Enable this option to send the Reaper Instructions instead of rendering audio tracks, which is faster.
-Render Audio & Instructions: Enable this option to generate audio files and the Reaper instructions.
-Send Tracks After Generating: This allows the Plugin to automatically send tracks to Reaper after generating.
-Send Audio for MIDI Track: Enable this option to send rendered audio for MIDI tracks.
-Send RealCharts with Audio: If this option is enabled, Enable this option to send RealCharts with audio.

Check out this video highlighting the new Reaper®-specific features: Band-in-a-Box® DAW Plugin Version 6: New Features Specifically for Reaper®

Band-in-a-Box® 2024 DAW Plugin Version 6: New Features Video

The new Band-in-a-Box VST DAW Plugin Verion 6 adds over 20 new features!

Watch the new features video to learn more: Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2024 - DAW Plugin Version 6 New Features

We also list these new features at www.pgmusic.com/bbwin.plugin.htm.

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