PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Beginners Forum Questions Re. Thinking About Buying Band in a Box

Hi,
This is my first post here - the folks on the Cockos (Reaper) forums suggested I post some questions I have about BIAB.

Reasons for Possibly Buying BIAB
I write my own stuff (rock songs), and find it a bit laborious to do everything in Reaper from scratch, so I was thinking that I could create quick arrangements/tracks in BIAB, and export the results to Reaper for editing.

Even though I am primarily a guitarist, I am really finicky about drums (and to a lesser extent, keyboards), so my thinking is that I will probably export drum tracks from BIAB as MIDI, but I would imagine that most of my usage for BIAB will involve Real Tracks.

QUESTIONS
1. Is my assumption / hope that creating arrangements quickly, then exporting them to Reaper where I will edit them and overdub guitar and vocals, a realistic assumption/hope?

By this, I mean are there any potential problems with that as a workflow?

2. I will probably be giving myself a new computer for Christmas (to be used exclusively for tracking and video production), but until then will be using my laptop, which does not have a lot of space left on the SSD.

So, I plan to run BIAB from a USB (50 MB)

Are there any problems with running BIAB from a USB? Freezing? Latency? Anything like that? Will I be sacrificing any features if I go the USB route?

3. Is BIAB / Real Band capable of automation for volume, panning and effects - it would be nice to be able to do as much as possible in BIAB before exporting to Reaper, just to save time.

4. What Pak would you all recommend for me?

5. What are the potential pitfalls or disadvantages with using BIAB for the purposes I describe above?

Many thanks for any answers.

All the best,

drutgat

Welcome Drutgat!

Huge Reaper fan here, and spend much time on the r/Reaper subreddit (under a different user name). The workflow from BiaB/RB to Reaper is a dream, especially with the enhancements and developments made to the DAW station/section in the PG music programs.

One of the reasons that (IMHO) Reaper and BiaB work so well together is that, unlike with many DAWs, a Reaper track does not have to be pre-desgnated as audio or MIDI, so you can plonk a plethora of mixed MIDI and audio tracks right into reaper via the dropstation, or, IIRC, in RB by simply selecting a section and dragging it, and having it snap right to grid!

One word of caution, at the outset make sure to set the project tempo in Reaper to the same as the Tempo if the track you are exporting from BiaB/RB. Of course, if you forget to do this you can rectify the issue later, but then you have to mess with other settings such as "change playback rate w/o affecting pitch".. etc.

Editing to address your questions in turn:

Q 1. Is my assumption / hope that creating arrangements quickly, then exporting them to Reaper where I will edit them and overdub guitar and vocals, a realistic assumption/hope?"

A Yes.

Q By this, I mean are there any potential problems with that as a workflow?

A No

Q 2. I will probably be giving myself a new computer for Christmas (to be used exclusively for tracking and video production), but until then will be using my laptop, which does not have a lot of space left on the SSD.

So, I plan to run BIAB from a USB (50 MB)

Are there any problems with running BIAB from a USB? Freezing? Latency? Anything like that? Will I be sacrificing any features if I go the USB route?

A The version I purchased came with an external drive, IIRC maybe it costs an extra $10 to ship. No latency issues at all--just be aware that it won't work through a multi-USB hub, and needs to be plugged in directly to your laptop.

Q Is BIAB / Real Band capable of automation for volume, panning and effects - it would be nice to be able to do as much as possible in BIAB before exporting to Reaper, just to save time.

A. Absolutely. You have volume automation lanes in RB, although personally I leave them untouched because I do all that stuff once I'm in Reaper.

Q 4. What Pak would you all recommend for me?

Well that really depends on what you feel your needs are, and how much $ you're willing/able to spend. The most basic version though should suffice for what you describe...

Q 5. What are the potential pitfalls or disadvantages with using BIAB for the purposes I describe above?

A None. It's the best way to do it, IMO


If you have any more specific questions feel free to ask!

DeaconBlues09,
Many thanks for such a warm welcome to the PG Music forums.

And thanks for your wonderfully clear and helpful answers to my questions.

I have grown to love Reaper, even though I have not done as much recording on it as I had on GarageBand (I am basically a PC person, but bought a now-outdated super-duper Mac about 11 years ago for exclusive audio and video recording because PC's at that point were plagued by all kinds of IRQ problems, and the like).

I do miss the drums in GarageBand, and was getting a little weary of programming using MD Drummer in Reaper, so I am hoping BIAB will shorten the process of getting a good basic drum track into Reaper, which I can then edit to my heart's content.

I watched some BIAB installation videos earlier and I think that the hard drive option meant that you had to install more files on the computer than if one uses the USB option. However, I will double-check that.

I want to make sure that whatever Pak I get has enough Real Tracks on it because I think that the only MIDI I am likely use on BIAB is for export to Reaper. And I do get sick of the same old sounds so I want a good variety of Real Tracks.

Money is less of an issue - basically, I want to set myself up fairly well, and then dive back into recording.

Does that help in narrowing the field a little so that you can suggest an appropriate Pak?

As I said earlier, I am mostly doing rock (and some pop), but I also would like to be able to use tabla if BIAB has any North Indian Classical instruments.

Many thanks for your offer of asking you questions. I am sure that I will be in touch again.

All the best,

drutgat

Sorry, I meant to say above,
"I want to make sure that whatever Pak I get has enough Real Tracks on it because I think that the drum part is the only MIDI I am likely to use use on BIAB is for export to Reaper".

Apparently my account has to be approved in order for me to edit my posted messages, and that has not happened yet, hence this message.

Gotcha,

Look, I'd wait for the new version to come out (2019-should come out end of October beginning December) and it's always on sale at least until the end of the year. Definitely get it on PC, for like a million reasons I won't bother to get into now.

AS for styles, I can't even tell you what's possible with this program if I intend to get any work at all done today, so I say go all in (except personally I would not bother to go for the audiophile--especially if HD space is an issue).

Forget the individual PAKs, just buy the whole kit and kaboodle... You have no idea how satisfying it can be to here a bouzouki playing exquisitely along with a fretless bass and chamber string section!!!

However, w/ I'm afraid you're a little out of luck with the North Indian instruments. While there are some decent loops in that style, that's not what BiaB excels in. BUT, you can generate fantastic MIDI melodies by constricting your chords and chord progressions using the scale tones that type of music emulates, and then use Kontakt instruments to to its magic with the MIDI.

FWIW, I've purchased, and almost exclusively used, BiaB as a woodshedding/educational tool (the reason I used Reaper in the first place was for recording guitar and bass for online collabs) but recently posted my first track for a contest which was some BiaB instruments sliced and diced and plied with effects in Reaper. https://soundcloud.com/user-423212678/labor-day-pt-ii-1

Basically everything there is Real Tracks (including the vocals!) a sh*t ton of Native Instruments plugins, and a lot of editing in Reaper :-)

Welcome again, and we look forward to seeing more of you here :-)

The Audiophile version comes on its own USB HDD, so drive space is not going to be an issue. If you are really keen, you can always upgrade to the Audiophile edition later.

Do go for the best (highest) version that your budget allows. You can find the limitations with the entry level version (Pro-Pak) fairly quickly.

My recommendation is to wait until December if possible. New versions are often released just in time for Christmas, and (historically) pricing tends to be better at that time, meaning you can usually buy more BiaB for your buck.

Welcome to the neighborhood.

drutgat,

Here is a "critical" welcome.

You will get a great great sounding realtracks and very detailed way of editing your composition with BIAB.

But keep in mind:

1)Program might look good on the screen, but it is very clunky. You will feel as it was written ages ago. Developing team/owner does not communicate with customers well, so future is very unclear.

2)It is 32 bit, and not 64 bit. And might never be re-written

3) User interface is not "user friendly", not dynamic or dockable.

4)Poor VST support especially entering chords with MIDI controller.

5)slow track re-generation process, even on very fast computers.


Having said that, it does allow to make great sounding backing tracks.
As VideoTrack mentioned, it is better to wait till December.

I might add this: Look into their "grace" period. I believe they do have 30 day money back guarantee, maybe just get the most basic version that can be downloaded and play with it for a few days. If it is for you, just ask them kindly to honor guarantee within their timeframe and then just get the best version you can afford when / if new release is announced.

Overall, I feel it worth the money if you know what you are getting, but progress of modernizing the software is very slow. So if you have patience and are willing to accept that development might stop for what is called "technical death", process, where it is too expensive to rewrite software to new standards, go for it

Adding to Videotrack's message the Ultrapak also comes on a HD.

You will find that the MIDI drum tracks in BiaB are very good. Sometimes I will use them as is while other times I may either rewrite a small section and/or use Groovemonkee MIDI loops.

https://groovemonkee.com/

As previously stated there is nothing wrong with the way you want to use BiaB. I drag and drop MIDI and RT tracks into my DAW, Studio One Pro, with no problems. In fact I use the exact same method as you are proposing to use.

Good luck.

Welcome to the forum (I hesitate to “welcome” someone, as I've only been her 8 years or so.)


The one “critical” review notwithstanding, everything the company sells has a 30 day guarantee, so you have that advantage.


As for the program, I really don't know quite how to describe it. For me it has become a writing partner, the scope of which is only restrained by my imagination.


I've written Rock, Classical, Hip Hop, Blues, Novelty, Big Band, Dixieland, Ballads, Folk-Rock, Country, Religious, Historical, Sea Shanties, Tangos, Adult Contemporary, and several others that I fail to remember. That's not to brag, because some of them were really stinkers!

The point is – the music is right there in this “clunky”, imperfect, slow to change program. A five-piece band at your fingertips, playing virtually anything you can imagine.


Try the full program. You won't regret it.


Regards,


Bob

Previously, PG Music offered a demo version to help with buying decisions. That option has been discontinued in favor of their very liberal 30-day, no-questions-asked, 100% guarantee. They invite you to try the software for 30 days with absolute confidence. Just one of the things that sets PG Music head and shoulders above whomever is in second place in customer satisfaction.

I find the very music savvy friends I've made on these forums well worth the price of admission.

You will never be flamed for asking a question. Trolls don't stick around very long.

Soon you'll be sharing your learning with the rest of us.

Welcome again.

BTW, the tutorials have been updated and they are fabulous.

http://www.pgmusic.com/howtos.htm

You will also find hundreds of users' tutorials on YouTube.

"The one “critical” review notwithstanding..."
What is that supposed to mean, Bob?

Of course it does! And to those who are jumping on me like hungry wolves on young goat, kindly hold your urges. Lets keep it civilized. If you read my post, I actually encouraged a probable customer to try it. I clearly stated that it worth the money if you know what you getting into.

One has to make a decision, so I gave my honest opinion.

drutgat,

From what you say (in posts above)... I would recommend that you go for the UltraPAK.

Once you start using BIAB, you WILL want ALL the RealTracks. AND all the RealDrums.

The drumming available in the full complement of RealDrums is INCREDIBLE. And fairly flexible. And REAL. The variety of styles is extensive.

The full version also a LOT more electric guitar styles and soloists.

And... you will be surprised at the rest of the RealTracks that will help flesh out rock productions (pianos, organs, sax, harp...)

fj

Drutgat, you have some good answers above.

One thing that's been hinted at but I don't think stated, is that whatever package you buy, the main program is the same. What you pay for is more RealTracks, RealDrums, styles, MIDI supertracks etc.

Also, you wrote this question as your #3: Is BIAB / Real Band capable of automation for volume, panning and effects ... I will just comment that BIAB does allow you to set the volume, panning, reverb and tone for a song. However, it does not support automation curves for these. For example, if you had a Mackie Control Surface or similar, you could ride the gain on a setting but it won't be recorded by BIAB. It's better to send the tracks to Reaper or any DAW and do it there.

BIAB even has a setting to make all tracks dry and centered before exporting to a DAW, so you can do all the effects in the DAW on a 'clean' track, I think that's the workflow you will be using. As also mentioned, RealBand, bundled with BIAB for free, is a simple DAW that can be an intermediate step. It reads BIAB files directly, something no other DAW does. And it allows regenerating parts of a track, rather then the whole track in BIAB.

I've been using BIAB since 2006 and I wouldn't be without it.

It's a brilliant program and indispensable for my songwriting. Like those in the posts above, I recommend spending the most that you can to get the best version possible. All versions use the same engine. What varies from version to version is the number of styles, Realtracks, Realdrums, MIDI and Supermidi tracks.

Also, if you are tossing up between the Windows version of the program and the Mac version, be aware that the Windows version comes with Realband while the Mac version does not. Realband is somewhat like a DAW but it has the capabilities of BIAB.

My workflow is...

1. Write a song in BIAB.

2. Open the song in Realband and use multiriff to generate multiple tracks for some of my song's backing tracks.

3. Save tracks and load them into Reaper to create the backing.

For those tracks that I have created multiple tracks (usually solo tracks or tracks for sweetening the mix), I compile a single track from the multiple tracks using copy and paste.

Reaper is also where I use VSTs, DXis and other effects. I don't worry about setting these up in either BIAB or Realband since I use these programs to produce the raw tracks (midi and audio) for Reaper.

If you want to get an idea as to what's possible, visit Users Showcase at the below link and have a listen to some BIAB users' works.

Users Showcase

Regards,
Noel

• my latest song: Summer Moon

Something needs to be said about the quality of many users on these forums and again about the software's acceptance in the curriculum of the top music schools in the country and worldwide. You would be pleasantly surprised to learn those schools names.

Some of the modest posters on these forums could swap music theory at 100 paces but they never boast their credentials or accomplishments. They are generally the first ones to throw out a lifeline to help us.

I can name many Nashville recording artists and songwriters who are using BIAB and the list is growing daily.

DeaconBlues09, VideoTrack, Rustyspoon#, MarioD, 90 db (Bob), Donny, floyd jane, Matt Finley, Noel96,

Wow. What can I say?

This has to be the warmest, most welcoming and helpful response I have ever received on a forum.

Thank you so much.

I can see that I am not going to be short of people to interact with about BIAB, and I would like to get into some collaborations down the road a little.

I had already listened to some user tracks when I posted the above, and while I really liked what I heard and was impressed by the creativity of the songs I listened to, one of the things that worried me a little was that there was a certain sonic genericism to the BIAB tracks themselves.

Maybe this is just me.

But I am going to listen to DeaconBlues09's track, and will also check out the GrooveMonkey loops suggested by MarioD.

Thanks for those links, guys.

You all gave such sage advice, and, accordingly
1. I will wait for the new release (are they typically pretty bug free?)

2. I will spend as much as I can

3. I am definitely going PC (not Mac) this time

Thanks again.

drutgat

Thanks for this, Donny.

I am definitely going to invest in BIAB - in fact, I now have a bit of GAS about it: damn you all!

It does not surprise me that professional songwriters and recording artists use BIAB - for the same reasons all of you use it, probably, and the same reasons I am attracted to it.

Take care,

drutgat

New releases will have new features. It is not uncommon for there to be some teething problems, but do note that there is a dedicated extensive testing team and PG Music often release one or more patches after a new release when there are any items that need attention.

I don't think that you will be disappointed.

Thanks VideoTrack.

Drutgat, you're right, almost everyone here is helpful and supportive. But if it makes you feel more at home to be like some other forums, I can actually tell you to go RTFM. You can download the complete BIAB manual as a PDF and get a head start! Go here:

http://www.pgmusic.com/manuals/index.htm

That impression likely comes from how each user uses BIAB. Most folks are have a certain "style" of their own and pretty much stick to it (and repeat it over and over). And many are more "songwriter" than "producer" (people spend their youth with a guitar in their hands, not sitting in front of a studio console). It is really up to the individual user to "add their personality" to their productions and mixes.

The BIAB RealTracks, by definition, will play a "similar sound and patterns" throughout a song (though they do contain a good deal of variety). If one chooses a group of tracks and has them all play straight through, the song is going to sound the same all the way through. But... there are over 2000 RealTracks. Using the right mix of those at the right times in the proper amount can make a world of difference... There are folks around who do "mix it up" from song to song. When you find them - on their Soundcloud page or their website - you can poke through their list and hear a lot of variety that should show some of the extensive variety in the RealTracks (and RealDrums).

(you can walk through the list in my signature - play a few seconds of a song then move on to the next - if you manage to get through the first 20 or so - maybe through "Natural Partners" - you should hear a decent variety - and that will only be the styles I tend to do. Others will have "different varieties". J&B will do bluegrass to Americana, BlueAttitude will do a bunch of blues and blues/rock, gruverider does his thing (killer vocals), tommyad, Steve Young...just to name a few)

You will have your own "personality". I look forward to hearing it...

fj

Thanks for this, Matt.

I think I will decline your offer, kind though, it is, in terms of harmonizing my experience of this forum with others

Hi floyd,
Thanks for this.

I really liked your songs - and downloaded one ('Too Dangerous').

I cannot wait to get BIAB.

1. Is my assumption / hope that creating arrangements quickly, then exporting them to Reaper where I will edit them and overdub guitar and vocals, a realistic assumption/hope?

That's what most people do, from past and present experience. The advertising is true. If you know the chords to your song, or are musical enough to enter them on the fly--and it's basic structure--you can get an arrangement in not-too-many minutes.

If you use the part-markers, pushes, rests, shots, and holds (entered right there in the same box you entered your chords) you can get a stylistically accurate groove that isn't painted wall to wall. All that (and more, if you want) right in BIAB. To me, there is very little of a learning curve to do that much.

2. ...Are there any problems with running BIAB from a USB? Freezing? Latency? Anything like that? Will I be sacrificing any features if I go the USB route?


There is an option in the installation to have the program itself sit on your internal HD with the real-tracks, midi, and all that residing on the external HD. That's what I am doing, if that helps.

I'm not incredibly tech savvy, but here's my experience as a newbie with the USB version of BIAB. To generate (or regenerate) the full list of tracks in a "busy" style takes about 20-30 seconds. To re-generate a single track takes about 8-10 seconds. Those would be realtrack-heavy styles. Midi is faster.

I've had BIAB "freeze" and then "unfreeze" a small number of times, but I think that's because my former usage was all midi and I was used to working faster. I've had it "freeze" and fail to "unfreeze" after an extended wait, but rarely--same as other heavy-lifting apps like video production/rendering straight from hard-drive. I've only had it return an error once. It's not yet crashed the computer. Like any work-horse software, just don't push it too fast with multiple commands, and it will behave just fine through USB.

To add: Since I've gotten this version, I'm actually writing the songs in BIAB without foreknowledge of (or the musicality to know) what chord always comes next, or how it will ultimately be structured. So I'm doing more "re-generating" than you might be in your song-writing method.

Drutgat,

Folks have already covered the technical part. Let me take a whack at the happiness part.

The first word that springs to my mind when I think of BIAB and the PG Products and Forums is "Joy." There is so much FUN around here. As they say in their marketing: "It should be illegal to have this much fun."

In 2014 a songwriting buddy from a Nashville group (Herb Hartley) told me to "Get Band-in-a-Box now. It will be the best thing you ever did for yourself." I remember the day Alyssa sold it to me. Boy was I on fire.

I started off with the baby kit, and had my 32 Real Tracks. I was so proud. But that very first song I wrote--and produced--with my stunning 32 Real Tracks and my "baby kit" was recently shortlisted for a film. I wrote it within a half an hour of opening the box, so to speak--with no effects or VSTS or anything that did not come with the 2014 Real Band package. I have been in love ever since.

I have written close to 1,000 songs or instrumental pieces (I guesstimate) with the aid of the program, adding in my own live instrumentation and singing along with the "band." The naming of their track-generating DAW as "Real Band" was very clever marketing and branding, because unlike other products it creates exactly that: a real band, of the greatest session players in the world.

To that you just add your own flair (I play a lot of guitar and piano and stuff) and you will definitely create your own signature sound.

I have created 8 or 9 albums (lost count) with the program since quickly upgrading to the Audiophile version, in the genres of classical, latin, bolereo, rock, jazz, pop, alternative and country, and have recently branched out into Hip Hop.

The program was by my side when I was named to a "Ones to Watch" list in Nashville. There have been other accolades but I won't get into that because as Don Gaynor said, there are A LOT of very successful, modest and sweet people on these forums who give their hearts and souls and time to helping new and aspiring songwriters. I am still relatively wet behind the ears but having the time of my life. I love this forum, and I love this community. It is the best place for a songwriter to be. Hands down.

So, I would say, buy as much as you can, you will not regret one penny spent around here--and jump in as soon as you can with your songs and productions.

People will cheer you on and you will soon be writing the best stuff of your life.

Welcome to the forum in advance and get ready to have the time of your life too.

Latest:

http://www.davidpsnyder.com/

Yea....and that Snyder guy... so much variety on so many songs (a bazillion, I think), one would hardly know where to start...

Until now, nothing has been said about the gaggle of real Nashville session musicians (over 150) that await your baton. They never miss or are tardy for a practice session; never UI; never out of tune; never missing a note or chord; never dancing with or 'hitting on' your significant other but patiently awaiting your commands day or night.

I often use Nashville session musicians Brent Mason (guitar) and John Jarvis (acoustic piano) in my tunes. Most genres are aptly supported.

Without BIAB, I would not be able to afford such talent in my band.

David, Tangmo, floyd, and Donny,
Many thanks for such wonderful and helpful posts.

Hearing/seeing is believing. Here is PG staffer Tobin walking us through the program.

https://youtu.be/zuiYAx5xffc

Thanks, Donny.

South Africa is famed for it's diamonds and gems. We are blessed to have one of Johannesburg's brightest jewels on these forums, Joanne Wilson-Cooper.

Joanne is generally the first to jump in with help for anyone in trouble.

https://youtu.be/OqGvnE1HNqo

A question for you: What kind of Rock do you do?

Tangmo,

If you are addressing me, I mostly do/did Folk Rock ala Lightfoot and Classic R&R from the 50s (I an old phart). A severe stroke sidelined my live performances but I've jammed countless times with Dylan in HS. I'm 2 months older than Bob.

BIAB has put me back in music in a big way.

Thank you, Peter and crew!

Don, the question was for the OP, drutgat. Threads is weird. I just thought what "syle" of Rock he was writing/producing might color some of the replies.

Tell Bob I love him when you see him. :-) Keep on a'rockin'.

Bob's internet security is better than the Pentagon or White-house. I've been trying to reconnect for years.

My son, Don Junior, shared a venue with Jacob who said his dad speaks very highly of me.

My only interest is in helping my talented friends, not myself.

Joanne is great! I watched this video some month ago. I do not get tired of her explaining things. Don, thank you for reminder. I will probably purchase her almost 3 hour course. Price is very reasonable.

Hey OP,

I made a video about BiaB to Reaper and posted it to the "Tips and Tricks" forum.

Here's the link, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUKGWZhJ2vo&feature=youtu.be

I didn't read the other replies so forgive me if this is repeated.

1 Absolutely. No problems at all.

2. If you buy the SSD hard drive version, you can run it right from there. That's how I do it. Freezing and latency are from other causes if they occur. Latency is a product of the sound card and driver you are using.

3, Yes it is HOWEVER..... I personally would not use the automation, panning of FX in BB or RB if you are exporting to do the mixing in Reaper or any other DAW. Do all your mixing, production, and automation in the DAW. Keep your tracks raw so you can change things later if you desire. If you print FX or automation to the track before you put it in the DAW you're kind of locked in or else you have to go back and redo the track from the beginning. This essentially causes you to waste more time than you thought you were saving. When you do it in the DAW..... if you don't like the volume automation or the FX.... you simply delete them and start again with the raw track. Not a lot of lost time this way or redoing things from square one.

4. My advice is to ALWAYS buy as high up the ladder as you can afford. This is one buying decision you will not regret.

5, THe biggest pitfall to using BB/RB in this manner is it's going to spoil you big time. It will cause you to get more work done in less time at a higher level of professionalism than ever before. So, use it with caution, knowing it's going to change your song writing in ways you never imagined.


I see no downside to using BB. I've been a BB addict and proponent for a decade now. Several folks in this forum are here because they heard my music and had to investigate it for themselves. And no..... I'm not compensated for recommending it.

JUst a brief insight to how I use it.

1. I write the songs in BB. Very quick, easy to edit. I get the song structure exactly how I want it to be at the final recording of the song..... key, tempo, verses, choruses, beginnings and endings, etc...
2. I save it and close it in BB and open it in Real Band (RB) where I render all the tracks to audio and use RB's track generation to add additional tracks that might not be in the BB style. I use rock styles and I can add steel guitar and fiddle easily in RB
3. I export each file to a folder that I have created for this song project.
4. I import the tracks into Sonar.
5. I add my live guitars and vocals in Sonar as well as my FX, volume and panning envelope automation and get the mix sounding like I want.
6. I export the finished file from Sonar and do the finalizing and trimming in my Wave editor.

The song is essentially finished at this point and I will render an MP3 and post it.

that;s my 2 cents on this

Herb,

Well stated.

I have a very similar workflow plus the addition of generating and tweaking a Soloist track.

So far, I haven't wrapped my head around RB but Callie in Support is helping me.

RB has everything I need in a DAW but, at my age, my brain suffers from 'reluctance.' (chortle)

It may be appropriate to mention here the excellent Support Staff at PG Music. They are unexcelled anywhere in the industry.

Hi Guitarhacker,

Thank you for explaining your workflow which we can all learn from.

One thing I don't understand is the last sentence:

"The song is essentially finished at this point and I will render an MP3 and post it."

Why do you render to a mp3 and not a wav-file? The sound quality will suffer a bit by rendering to mp3 I would think?

Will

One advantage to mp3 over wav is upload time. Also, some sites require mp3 only. I don't think Herb meant that he uses mp3 exclusively.

Donny, Guitarhacker, DeaconBlues09, floyd, and anyone else whom I have missed naming here,

Many, many thanks for the continued help, suggestions and links.

I will check out Joanne's stuff.

Don, if you get back in touch with Mr. Zimmerman, please ask him to make good on the wish that he expressed about four years ago to work with McCartney. I would love to hear what the two old croakers come up with.

In answer to Tangmo's question,people say that the kind of rock that I do sounds like Dylan - he is my second main influence, with The Beatles being my first. Indian Classical Music is next, although I do not seek to integrate that into my music in any way (I am a bit of a snob about keeping the purity of that music, although I love The Beatles' songs that combined rock with ICM).

I am a complete Beatles nut, actually, and at 55 years old am just a little too young to remember them and to have seen them (arrgh!).

However, I have seen both Paul and Ringo in concert (Paul many times), and - frustatingly - know, or used to know people who have worked with them or who know/knew them.

Despite the above influences, I would not say that I sound like either The Fabs or Dylan (although I have put some musical 'references' to The Beatles into a couple of songs).

Although I love playing guitar, I am not very technically adept (that is why I gave up sitar lessons), but my playing is relatively poor, but I think I am a fairly good songwriter.

Unfortunately, I stopped singing (but kept playing) for about a year and a half from mid-2016 until a few months ago, and I now cannot even sing some of my own songs properly. I am going to post separately about this, as it scares the hell out me.

Sorry if all of that was too much information.

Hi Rustyspoon,
I just wanted to let you, and others here, know that I took your post as encouraging, and as a user's actual experience of BIAB.

Thanks for that.

Believe me, as someone who used to load computer programs (pre-DOS!) from a cassette recorder, and who has bent various early word processor and current graphics programs to my will, I am used to clunky interfaces, and to the learning curve.

I even spent two stress-filled weeks a couple of years ago teaching myself the forum-management end of Phbb from scratch. I found the learning curve to be very, very steep, but it was worth it. I could not code this site, but I could do the behind-the-scenes management (setting up forums, and the like).

I hate all of that, but am used to it, so the BIAB interface does not intimidate me at all - but I am sure that I will have questions!

Thanks again for your post.

drutgat, in that case I think every post made stands.

I'm not sure I would recommend BIAB as an easy tool for people doing any type of prog, or for some types of metal. Since I don't do those things, I can't "recommend" (or discourage either). However, I have enough experience with the program to say that it can be useful in any genre...it's just there are few "easy" style choices in odd time signatures--"pick style, get basic backing" type of thing. I'm convinced that a more "advanced" user could create a backing, but not convinced that it would be easier than other methods. I just don't know.

I've given up in trying to reconnect with Bob Z. I even emailed his brother David who obviously mistook me for yet another autograph or memorabilia collector which I am not.

His hometown, Hibbing, Minnesota, is currently working on a big bash for Bob but he didn't show up for many earlier attempts. I think that his privacy has become more precious to him in the Autumn of his life.

I am sorry to hear that. It's a real shame that Dylan is so hard to contact. You could always try writing via that boxing gym / club that he owns (if he still owns it). Or, his agent - although maybe you have already tried methods like that.

I read last year that he and David had bought a place in Scotland, outside Inverness somewhere. I think that the article I read had a more precise location for it.

Where there's a will, there's a way.

Our forum friend "Furry" lives in Inverness, maybe he can confirm Bob's whereabouts.

Furry, it would be a great segue to meet Bob if you would mention me from Keewatin, Minnesota. I'm the guy who taught Bob that long, descending intro run by Luther Perkins in Johnny Cash' "Home Of The Blues."

Drutgat, everybody has given you lots of Biab info but I want to make one point and that is generation times. The time it takes to generate is completely dependent on the horsepower under the hood of your PC. Somebody mentioned the generation times for 4 or 5 Real Tracks as 20-30 seconds. That is very slow, he must be using either an older system or a weak new one. A $400 laptop can run Biab just fine but not very quickly while a $1,500 i7 desktop will singe your eyebrows off. Look at my sig, that system will generate 7 RT's in maybe 8 seconds max and mine is mid level to low high end I guess. I bought it used off Ebay for $625. A hot system will cut that time in half.

Bob

Hi Bob. Very interested to know how you achieve these speeds... After your post, I went and timed regeneration times on my computer. For me, each re-generation takes 12-15 seconds. And I have an i7-7600U CPU / fast SSD and computer cleaned of all bloatware. Realtracks are on internal SSD, not external HD. Nothing heavy running on background, no VSTs.

Very roughly, my computer is 20% faster than yours, what am I doing wrong to have nearly 40% speed drop in RT processing? Did you tune something in Windows like HD access or memory allocation?

Sorry to jam in this thread like this, but I honestly think this might be very important for some users.

Thanks.

Hmmm, I don't know Mike. When I got it it had Win 7 and that summer was when MS had their free upgrade to Win 10 which I did by doing the complete installation not just the upgrade. It never had any bloatware to clean.

My stuff tends to be AABA jazz tunes with 3 choruses and those go quick. If I were to change to say 7 choruses with a full soloist RT that would take a bit longer. The soloists RT's seem to make a significant difference and since I'm usually the soloist I don't do a whole lot with those at least not in Biab. RB is different, I'm known to go pretty crazy there...

Alanah has been a regular here for many years but she doesn't post much in the regular forums any more but she's been a beta tester forever. A few years ago during testing she had just bought what sounded to me like a $2,500 system. I remember she set up a very complex song with all RT's and she had style changes and RT changes every few bars just to do a total stress test. She said her generation time was 6 seconds! I had my old system then and my usual time with my much simpler songs was in the 20-30 sec range and that's what prompted me to upgrade.

Just so I know I'm not smoking my socks here, I just opened Biab, set up a 3 chorus jazz ballad and selected the Trepid Jazz ballad multi style, this has Bass, Strings, Drums, Guitar and Horn Section RT's along with a midi melody track. Exactly 8 seconds to the first drum stick countin. I just created another one, 16 bars for 12 choruses 5 RT's and I added a Medley soloist making 6 for the entire song. That's 192 bars and it took 21 seconds. Not surprising when I think about it. From what you've been writing about you're doing these big complex things so 15-20 seconds sounds about right then. Now that I'm getting into this I just did a further test. I nuked the soloist track and it took exactly 10 seconds to generate 5 RT's for 192 bars. One RT soloist track doubled the time. I think it's because the soloists have many more individual licks and phrases for Biab to apply it's smarts to.

Here's the thing when you do audio rendering in any DAW including Biab it takes time. I'm sure you know when you create a midi track in Sonar, Studio One etc it's creating an audio track while the midi track is playing. At the end if you have a bunch of midi tracks and you didn't create audio tracks as you were going, how long would it take that program to render your song to a wav? I don't know but it's certainly more than a few seconds. Biab is generating a brand new audio track from multiple RT's all at the same time. I think 8-20 seconds is pretty good given the variables.

You know enough about computers to know if someone is doing that with an old Core Duo with 2 gigs of ram, it's called good luck. It will do it all just fine but it could take a minute and a half to generate.

Bob

Time taken also depends on many aspects beside the processing performance.
- How many tracks
- What is the overall length of the song
- Setting of the Disable Fast Generation option
- Any frozen tracks in the song
etc

So it's difficult (impossible actually) to make an accurate generation time comparison just based on processing performance.

Bob, thank you for long write up.

I got 7 RT, one style change in the middle. 2 RT tracks are only present for 10 bars. No soloist RT. Total 60 bars. This theme should "fly". Not sure why it takes so looong.

I tried muting/freezing all RT except one... That single RT takes exactly 8 seconds to regenerate (60 bars, half time muted).

There are many articles on the net how to optimize SSD performance. Not sure if these sort of things will help.

The regeneration time is one of my biggest nemesis with BIAB

P.S. Would be nice to have sort of "sticky" list "How to optimize your computer for BIAB" for new and possibly seasoned users. Given, that it will speed up things, even just a bit.

drutgat, I am sorry to jump into your thread in such manner, it is just when I saw the regeneration time Bob posted, I got all nervous.

Mike.

Hi Don,
The Zimmermans' house is called Aultmore House, near Nethy Bridge, near Inverness.

If you google it, there are quite a few articles from around 2007 when Mr. Z and David bought the house, to around 2009.

The house itself has a website devoted to it, because it was the location of a TV series for a number of years, and according to the articles, the Zimmermans rented the house.

If you do a google map view, you will be able to see/find the house.

Here is a link to one of the results returned by a google search

Dylan Buys A House in Scotland

Mike, Bob and Videotrack.

Thanks for your posts.

This is all good information for me.

Part of the reason that I asked about running times is that I anticipate that I will be running BIAB from an external source, rather than from the internal SSD, when I get my new computer.

This is because I will be using the SSD to run video editing software, and the fairly substantial number of music apps that I use, so - if I am correct - there will not be that much room for much else.

If the higher capacity SSD's worked well, I would be less concerned about this.

Bob, that was probably me you were referring to with generate/regenerate speeds. I never put a stop watch to it, just a good guess, and conservative rather than bragging. I also said midi was faster, when it fact it's all but instantaneous. Mine was a good machine a few years ago, but not top o' the line. So I estimate it's a mid-range machine today. Highly rated AMD processor, quad-core with 8 gigs of ram.

Any "issues" I've had with BIAB stem from the speed of my former usage (midi only) not matching the regeneration speeds of Real Tracks. I'd have to exercise a little more patience even if regeneration speeds were 6 seconds. For me, they're not. But even if I over-estimated, I think that's a realistic ball-park and certainly not too long to wait.

Bob,
I think that the 16GB's of RAM you have is a prime factor in being able to get the results you are getting.

Could be but I've read conflicting posts about how much ram is needed to generate RT's. All I know for 20 some years now is put in as much ram as you can afford.

A few more points to make. Years ago I found out about all the bloatware the PC makers put on their machines so I started building my own. Then I found out the guys at all the independent computer stores will take your components and build it for you pretty cheap. I'll read about different combinations of CPU/Mobo/Ram along with the case and buy what I think is the best bang for the buck from Tiger Direct or somewhere at the time. I just had a brand new machine built at Fry's 3 months ago for business. If you buy everything from them they'll put it together for you for $85. It's an AMD Ryzen with a gaming mobo and 16 gigs ram with room for 64. I also bought the enterprise version of Win 10 Pro. I'm not an enterprise but I simply asked the tech about it and he signed a paper that let me pay a discounted price. I don't have any music stuff on it but I can tell just for my business and using the internet it's quite a bit faster than the one I just tested. I should switch machines but that's a hassle and my music PC isn't exactly a dog.

The next point is both machines are clean installs of Win 10 Pro and I don't optimize anything and I mean NOTHING. Lots of folks like to mess with their systems and for me I've learned to leave them alone. When I did this little Biab test the internet was running, my AV was running, everything was running and my audio was perfect, no glitches and you read the generation times.

Is leaving it stock really necessary, I have no idea. Just as an observer (backed up by a comment from Kent a while back) it seems those with the most problems are those who are constantly messing with their systems because they read a tech article. Or, maybe it's just coincidence but my systems work well so why mess with a good thing?

My best advice to folks having these problems is wipe the hard drive, reinstall windows and make the first thing you try out Biab and see what happens. That's your baseline. Clone the HD and then CAREFULLY start reinstalling what you really, truly need and pay attention. Then, don't change a thing leave it alone.

One more thing about generation times. I tested installing everything onto my SSD system drive which of course worked great, then I deleted all the RT/RD's leaving just the Biab program itself on the system drive and running all the RT's from the external drive. Zero difference so may as well save the space on the system drive. Again, the idea is keep the system drive as clean as possible.

One thing rharv talks about and he is a guru on these forums is to point all the DAW/Biab apps to an external drive for rendering audio. He gets much deeper into live recording/mixing and all that than I do but he says it does make a difference.

Bob

Hi Bob,
Many thanks for your reply, suggestions, ideas and the energy you are putting into helping to shepherd me along as I prepare to buy BIAB.

Yes, in my experience, there is a tipping point of sorts regarding the amount of RAM needed to accomplish any intensive task, such as video editing, and audio tracking/editing.

After one reaches that specific point, then adding more RAM is redundant. However, the difference between having too little and just the right amount of RAM can be huge, in my experience.

Great minds think alike on the having-a-computer-assembled front. I used to do this a lot - seems that was what one did all the time in the late 80s and 90s, but I do not know many people who do that nowadays.

However, I am a bit of a control freak, and research things painstakingly, so dictating the contents of my own system is a must for me. There are a couple of guys where I live who have a YouTube channel on which they test all manner of computer hardware for gaming. I am quite impressed by how rigourous these fellows are, and I am going to approach them to see if I can pay them to consult a bit (even though I have a rough idea right now what I want), and put together a fairly sophisticated PC for me.

The 'extra' factor in all of this is that I also require the computer to be capable of video editing. Not only does that require more system resources than audio tracking and editing, but we are now living in a time in which each of the main video editing software applications work optimally with different hardware than the others.

Why can't life just be simple?

Regarding optimizing on the PC, although I do not leave things alone totally in that respect, what I tend to do is to change various settings. For example, I make the computer notify me if a Windows update is trying to install itself, so that I can choose to install or not install the update.

I also create System Restore Points before I install any programme or app, and that has saved my bacon on a couple of occasions.

Thankfully, on the one occasion when System Restore did not help, reinstalling Win 10 was relatively painless, and I have to say, very, very quick.

I completely agree with rharv about rendering audio (and video) on a separate drive - that is actually faster, and puts a lot less strain on each drive than trying to run everything from one drive.

Thanks for mentioning that, though - I only discovered that a year or so ago.

And yes, rest assured that I will completely wipe and reformat my HD, prior to re-installing Windows, if the need arises. Cloning the drive is a great idea.

I wonder if it also makes sense to partition the System drive because it might keep the information in various partitions safer - I will ask rharv about that. Then again, it might lead to more trouble than it is worth.

Thanks, too, for letting me know about the results of you testing leaving BIAB on your SSD drive and running all of the RT's and RD's from the external drive. It is very useful for me to know that there was zero difference in the regeneration time of those tracks when you did things that way.

Thanks again for all of this.

drutgat and maybe others who are interested to know.
I have a fast NVMe SSD, which is several times faster than standard SSD SATA.
For the sake of the test, I made a partition with 30 GB overhead and moved RT and RD to new partition. Made no difference at all in render times.

Within 14 second rendering time my CPU and HD did not peak over 35%. Memory used by BIAB did not exceed 310 megabytes under the stress test.

I am not too tech savvy, but from the information I gathered it has to do with how the RT/RD files are handled. From my understanding, with every rendering/change BIAB goes to original source files and does does something inside the program, not utilizing computer resources well. So I believe, you can have a rocket fast computer, but render speeds would not change much until PG changes code to optimize how RT/RD are handled.

P.S. drutgat, If you are planning to buy external SSD for BIAB, look into NVMe SSD, not a regular SATA SSD.

Thanks drutgat, interesting article.

Rumors abound that Bob was interested in buying Merle Haggard's ranch which is nearby. I was hoping to simply 'drop in' on Bob but Merle's death dashed all hopes.

Rustyspoon (Mike?),
This is very useful indeed. Thanks so much. I had actually just started (a few days ago) to wonder about NVMe SSD's and had taken a brief look at NVMe SSDs, wanting to investigate more.

I am definitely go in this direction, rather than a SATA based SSD for my system drive.

Hi Don,

That is a shame.

Here are another couple of suggestions (links)

Dylan's UK Agent

And here is the info. I found about his US based representatives (which you may already have, and have tried to use to contact him)

Bob Dylan's Manager
Jeff Kramer
OK Management
275 South Beverly Drive
Suite 215
Beverly Hills, CA 90212
Phone: 310-535-1647


Bob Dylan's Agent
Brian Greenbaum
Creative Artists Agency
2000 Avenue Of The Stars
Los Angeles, CA 90067
Phone: 424-288-2000


Bob Dylan's Production Agent
Sony/Columbia/CBS Records
550 Madison Avenue
New York, NY 10022
Phone: 212-833-7305


Bob Dylan's Law Firm
Manatt Phelps & Phillips
11355 West Olympic Boulevard
Los Angeles, CA 90064
Phone: 310-312-4000

I would probably go with Samsung. I have seen, the price had dropped significantly on 1Tb NVMe SSD recently. Used to be crazy expensive.

Best regards,
Mike.

Much appreciated.

Enter another problem... being mute, I can't use the phone. You are beginning to see the insurmountable obstacles that I encounter. My main means of communication is via email. I seriously doubt if these sources are willing to be Bob's answering service. I would gladly try email if I had their email addresses.

Thanks for trying though.

Hi Don,
I did not realize that you are mute.

It seems that all of the branches of CAA (the agency which represents both Bob and Jakob), do not publish any form of email addresses for any of their agents or other employees, which I can understand now that I think about it.

However, I found a link on the CAA page to a form which seems to ask about what kind of 'business' one has with Bob. I am including the link to this form, and have not gone further with it.

Bob Dylan CAA page

I wonder if there is also a way to get something to Jakob without going through CAA.

Don't forget that these days these are the channels to contact these people. If you fill out the form above and there is space to do so, I would say that you are trying to contact Brian Greenbaum (his actual agent at CAA), and that you are mute, so email is the only way that you can communicate.

I would also include the details you have discussed here about being in HS with Zimmy (mention the name of the HS), and mention the names of other friends of his or mutual friends or yours - things that make you sound plausible and authentic. And of course mention the intro./riff that you taught him.

Good luck, and if I come up with any other suggestions I will let you know.