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HI ALL
How wrong can you be about BIAB I was for years.

Many moons ago when BIAB was born and appeared on the market.
I and many of my friends and keyboard players thought it was just another collection of midi voices and some sort of player and editor for midi files.
The very name Band In A Box and the cartoon character musician logo reinforced this.
So for many years I ignored it while I was wooed with the likes of Cubase and Cakewalk and so on.
Eventually about 5 years ago I began to see thing on Youtube that made me curious, so I investigated, and almost immediately bought BIAB 2014 Pro.
Since then there has been no stopping me and now up to scratch with 2018 ultra plus.
It took a long time to get here but I am so glad that I am here now, magical program and I don’t think twice on recommending it to anyone.
So thanks PG for a very pleasant journey and a great program.

Mike


Last edited by Mike Head; 10/14/18 07:56 AM.

BIAB2021 UltraPlus,AsusN55S1Tbssd, W10/64,Akai EIEpro
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I know what you mean Mike,

I first used Band-in-a-Box back when floppy Disks were the thing and sound came from a Creative Labs SoundBlaster 16 sound card. Got tired of it.

Next time the program arrived on a cd rom. Still playing midi but Roland's Virtual Sound Canvas program gave the SoundBlaster Audigy card a run for the money. Got tired of it.

The last time the program came on a DVD. Still plays midi but through the Sonar TTS-1. But ... now there is also real audio created from RealDrums, RealTracks, UserTracks and loops. I've upgraded every year since.

Now is a magical time for audio production.


Jim Fogle - 2024 BiaB (1109) RB (Build 3) Ultra+ PAK
Cakewalk - Zoom MRS-8 recorder
Desktop: i7 Win 10 build 2004, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD
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Originally Posted By: Mike Head
HI ALL
...
The very name Band In A Box and the cartoon character musician logo reinforced this.
...
Mike


Yes, this has been the subject of much discussion over the years.

Your comments would make a nice testimonial for PG Music. And thanks for all your contributions to the Forum, Mike.


BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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Dito me!!

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Hey thanks.
For your replies guys .
Mat, PG are very welcome to use my comment should they so wish.
Just good to be in such good company .
Mike


BIAB2021 UltraPlus,AsusN55S1Tbssd, W10/64,Akai EIEpro
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Yup, you get a lot of "eye rolling" and the occasional giggle when you mention that you use a product called "Band In A Box". That is until you actually play something for them that was created in BIAB.

I did a gig last summer that included an accomplished guitar player. He extolled the virtues of using a high-end keyboard to make the backing tracks for his "home studio" CDs.

I asked him to email me some of his best backing tracks, as MP3s. I chose one of his favorites, re-did it in BIAB, same key, same tempo, but added some RealDrums and RealTracks, then sent him back the new MP3. I doubt if it took a whole hour to complete.

I haven't a peep from him since!
Long live PGMusic.
LLOYD S

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Yep great software biab for anyone who doesn't have the money to afford studio time or session musicians, and that is most of us.

Your comments on the name made me laugh though. I said to a luthier a few years ago "Have you ever used band in a box" and his reply was yep the kids use to use it.

I think on reflection what he meant was something like this or something similar.

Band in a box


Maybe a better name might be, Session Musician pro, or something like that.


Last edited by musiclover; 10/14/18 10:59 AM.

Musiclover

My music https://www.youtube.com/user/donegalprideofall

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We have 22 songs licensed via Songtradr and several on their featured playlists. All songs were created by us (or via wonderful collaborators whom we met on the forum) using BiaB RT’s and RD’s. We’ve also been signed by Crucial Music as a result of a BiaB based song we submitted.

Six years ago we never dreamed we would be able to produce music in many different genres.

I mention this not in any braggadocio manner but only to illustrate that BiaB even allows rubes like us from out in the provinces to be players smile

There’s not much $ involved in these licenses but obviously the music placement folks don’t have any issues with BiaB’s quality.

And folks that don’t get it or disparage BiaB can carry on w/o the benefit of having award winning musicians play on their projects!




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Hi Mike ,Great to see your post that tells how good BIAB is.
Janice and Bud another great post by you guys and heres to much more success for you in the future.
I really cant thank Biab enough either ,it means I can produce a song (hopefully good) with great sounding tracks that people ask who did you get play Guitar? or Piano? or Drums?
The company are brilliant as well,always online,always encouraging and professional, the cost/payment structure is great and their seems to be a genuine interest in helping poeple make good songs

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I have to admit that I was one of the musicians who in the 90's where laughing about BiaB and couldn't see how the program could be of any use.

But when I rediscovered it about 5 months ago I was really surprised about how much better it is today. I'm very happy that I bought it and I can see a lot of possibilities in using it.

One wish for the future is that PGMusic will make many more "supermiditracks" because I like the combination of a real good session musician playing and me still being able to change the sound or the instrument. For modern day producers of music it is very important to be able to make a unique sound to the tracks they are producing. That (I believe) is the limitation of the the RealTracks.

Still a very happy customer!
Will

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Will,

As you investigate RealTracks, check out the ones marked "Direct Input" or "DI". For instance the surf RealTracks are "drenched" in reverb because that is part of the surf sound. However, the direct input variation of each, including the RealDrums, is effect free allowing you the opportunity to add effects as you desire.

I agree with your request though, I love midi SuperTracks. There is a request for more organ midi SuperTracks. Perhaps you can post a wishlist request for just more midi SuperTracks.


Jim Fogle - 2024 BiaB (1109) RB (Build 3) Ultra+ PAK
Cakewalk - Zoom MRS-8 recorder
Desktop: i7 Win 10 build 2004, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD
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We very much like the MSTs also. For guitar tracks the aforementioned DI option and a lot of regenerating/comping can add more uniqueness to your productions. Even w/o the DI regenerating multiple tracks and comping (sometimes down to the individual note level) can get you a track that much better supports your goals.

Bud

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Originally Posted By: Mike Head

I and many of my friends ...thought it was just another collection of midi voices and some sort of player and editor for midi files.
The very name Band In A Box and the cartoon character musician logo reinforced this.
So for many years I ignored it while I was wooed with the likes of Cubase and Cakewalk and so on.

A very valid point Mike, and as Matt has mentioned, the product name has very often been the subject of discussion.

There is a very interesting discussion about the name in this thread.

The author has made a number of extremely valid and very positive points and speaks with some authority on the subject matter. It is detailed but definitely worth reviewing. There are other valuable discussions before and after this thread, also worth reviewing.

It is my personal belief that they product could be more widely recognized in the industry if it were given a more positive and suitable product title. It does have a 'computer game' sound about it. That name might have worked reasonably well 20 years ago, but doesn't offer appeal to the tech-savvy musicians of today.

However, the developers haven't identified with this and I personally feel this has impacted on their market saturation.


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I like the name and the cartoon characters make it even more fun. Wouldn't be the same without them.


Does the noise in your head bother me ?
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Hi all

Well what a response great to read all your thoughts .
What’s in a name if the product is good ?
Well I don’t think it done FL Studio any harm to come from just Fruity loops!
Mike


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Originally Posted By: VideoTrack

It is my personal belief that the product could be more widely recognized in the industry if it were given a more positive and suitable product title. It does have a 'computer game' sound about it. That name might have worked reasonably well 20 years ago, but doesn't offer appeal to the tech-savvy musicians of today.

However, the developers haven't identified with this and I personally feel this has impacted on their market saturation.

Several years ago Dr. Gannon posted a link to an article that showed the market share of many well known computer music software companies. At the time, many in the forum were surprised to see that PGMusic's numbers were much better than they expected. The product has become more powerful since then. Even then it was ahead of some very well known competitors. Cakewalk is one I recall.

For years products like Cubase and Cakewalk were packaged with hardware in order to get market penetration. To my knowledge, BIAB has never taken that route. The people who buy it are usually people who heard about it through an enthusiastic friend who owns it. (That's how I was introduced to BIAB)

In spite of the differences in marketing strategy, BIAB has done better than you might think. I'd like to see an updated version of that article.

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Very reasonable feedback and discussion Pat. Thanks.

I guess the issue is that regardless of sales counts, friend's recommendations and more, how do we quantify if more sales or less sales could be attributed to the product title?

It's a bit like conducting a survey that asks a target audience "would you be more or less inclined to purchase an XYZ product if it was called 'Such and Such' or 'So and So' ? ". How would we ever know if market potential was being lost without the results of such a survey.

Frankly, it doesn't matter to me, I've already got the product. My only (unproven) concern is that PGM might be missing out on sales. I care about the company and the product and it deserves the best it can achieve.


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Hey Pat, if you can find that link again I would like to read it - must have missed that one.

Mike, Fruity Loops is a terrific example. I didn't even consider looking at it until they changed the name. I give them credit for branching out into serious territory.


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Originally Posted By: Mike Head
Well I don’t think it done FL Studio any harm to come from just Fruity loops!

Mike, my point exactly! Completely separate from the music industry I've been exposed to other products that I just didn't seriously consider because of their quirky product names.


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I started using BiaB when it was available for Atari, Mac OS6, and pre-Windows DOS. I had an Atari/St at the time.

Although I play 7 instruments, my primary instrument is saxophone. I bought BiaB when it was limited to 4 instruments with no endings, shots or holds.

I used BiaB to practice improvisation on the sax. Trying ideas out in the privacy of my own home instead of in front of critical ears, or getting the band together to play a song while I tried out different things.

The thing about improv is that it works best by creating and then releasing tensions with the rest of the band. That's hard to do without the band, but easy with BiaB.

I thought Band-in-a-Box sounded a little corny, but then Cakewalk and Mark Of The Unicorn don't sound that great either. I bought BiaB to practice with, not to impress others with the name of the app I'm using.

When user styles were introduced I made some for myself. Since I play multiple instruments and studied music theory and arranging I wanted to play with the StyleMaker and see what turned out. I made a collection of styles and gave them to my friends. My friends said they liked them better than the built-in BiaB styles (aren't friends wonderful) so I took out a classified ad in Electronics Musician Magazine advertising my styles for Atari computers.

One day I came home to find Peter Gannon's voice on my answering machine asking me to call him. I didn't know if he was going to ask me to stop or anything else so nervously I called.

Peter Gannon was warm and friendly, he put me at ease right away, and told me if I sent him my Atari disks, he would make sure they worked with the IBM-DOS (PC) computers so I could sell to his biggest market.

Peter has been nice and helpful to me from then until the present day. As a matter of fact, so has everyone else in PG Music.

I've written hundreds of styles since then, put them up for sale, and the nice folks at PG even send people my way if I have something that PG doesn't have. (And I never-ever try to duplicate PG Music styles - I'm a different musician with different ideas.)

I've also been solicited to do "for hire" work writing styles for other auto-accompaniment apps. I can't disclose the names as part of the deal, but I can say of the hardware/software and software apps that I've written styles for, BiaB has by far the most interesting and the most musical output. I think that's why it's a success and that's why we are all here.

Don't judge an app by the name, only by its performance.

IMHO BiaB is the very best auto-accompaniment product available, and the nice folks at PG Music keep finding ways to make it better.

Insights and incites by Notes


Bob "Notes" Norton smile Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com

100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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In the cakewalk forums, when they were up and running..... BB was looked down upon by many. I know I caught some grief from the "real musicians" in those forums for my use of BB. Others there were more accepting.

But yep, got to agree, even today, many musicians don't know what BB really has to offer.

I post my music, reply to comments and gladly tell folks who ask, who is playing on my tracks.


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Add nothing that adds nothing to the music.
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Well, the marketing department could do better. This is a graph showing "interest over time" (meaning how many have searched for Band in a Box) compared with FL Studio, Cakewalk and Cubase. Unfortunately google only have data from 2004 and forward, but it is still interesting:

Google trends

Will

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Extremely interesting results, Will. Thank you.


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Mike, I was impressed back in 2006, and blown away today. Actually, a "Band in a Box" was EXACTLY what I was looking for, so it was aptly named in my case.


BIAB 2021 Audiophile. Windows 10 64bit. Songwriter, lyricist, composer(?) loving all styles. Some pre-BIAB music from Farfetched Tangmo Band's first CD. https://alonetone.com/tangmo/playlists/close-to-the-ground
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One thing I've noticed are some of the self-made "Demos" people have done on their own for YouTube are not particularly good word-of-mouth advertising. Some of them are so poorly made it's embarrassing. I know their intentions are good and they think the can rustle up some more users. But the comments left by listeners/viewers for those "Demo" videos are largely unflattering. I do think that has at least a minor influence on the fabulous software's lack of appeal to those who've never used it or, to their knowledge, heard it. That's unfortunate.

ALan


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Loops: https://aldavidmusic.wixsite.com/bestmusicloops

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Alan, your comments are worthy of serious consideration.

A massive amount of genuine, good intentioned - albeit with less than pristine delivery and adequate professional delivery mechanisms - can give the viewer the impression that the product itself delivers less than what could be achieved.

People need to explore the product's abilities and the user's delivery as two separate deliverables.

Your points are well noted.


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An easy way to dispel many of the common misconceptions and myths about BIAB out in the music world would be for PGMusic to make a presence in the huge YouTube Home Recording Tutorial market. A whole lot of forum members and I'm sure BIAB users that are not active forum members daily spend time building their mixing and producing skills on sites with guys like Graham Cochran of the Recording Revolution, Joe Gilder of Home Studio Corner, Warren Huart of Produce Like a Pro, Dave Pensado of Pensado's Place, and Johnny Geib of Home Studio Trainer and many more. But none of these sites are talking about BIAB. Just between Produce Like a Pro and Pensado's Place, they have nearly half a million YouTube subscribers. The same PGMusic folks that do the NAMM events could take that presentation and a complementary copy of an UltraPak and make guest appearances at all of these sites. These instructors are always looking for new products that will benefit the home recording enthusiasts in every aspect of the home recording process. That includes many tasks that BIAB specialize in such as practice, building their musical skills, scales, accompaniment tracks, custom tracks, songwriting, midi tracks, RealTracks and Supermidi, Videos, notaction, the Audio Chord Wizard, multitrack recording and on and on....

It seems to me that PGMusic being at NAMM builds business relationships whereas them having a presence on these type sites will build their customer base. Several of these sites are sponsored by specific products such as Presonus and specialize in teaching beginning to advanced procedures and techniques of that product line. Maybe PGMusic could offer a sponsorship to a site.

That particular customer base is a prime market of people who either don't know of BIAB or have heard of it and have many misconceptions about what it is and what it can do for the home recordist artist, producer, music student and teacher. Think of the number of artists that would like access to studio grade musicianship for instruments they can't play. Maybe many of them can play an instrument but not to the expert quality of a RealTrack session player. There's even value to the seasoned player. They may can play the instrument part, but at a particular moment, it is inconvenient to do so. Ask forum member Tom Adams if he wants to do a setup his PSG, tune it plus teardown when through at 2am to play 2 minutes on a song... or... pull up a RealTrack pedal steel?

In the past, I have been in contact with three of those instructors about other topics but mentioned BIAB during our conversation. All three have heard of BIAB but have very little knowledge of the program and what they do know is mostly wrong......

To me, it's a bit of "Will the real BIAB please stand up". Make these guys aware, and you will go a long ways to reaching a specific market that will benefit from the biggest open secret in music software.


Last edited by Charlie Fogle; 11/03/18 07:12 AM.

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Originally Posted By: Charlie Fogle
An easy way to dispel many of the common misconceptions and myths about BIAB out in the music world would be for PGMusic to make a presence in the huge YouTube Home Recording Tutorial market. A whole lot of forum members and I'm sure BIAB users that are not active forum members daily spend time building their mixing and producing skills on sites with guys like Graham Cochran of the Recording Revolution, Joe Gilder of Home Studio Corner, Warren Huart of Produce Like a Pro, Dave Pensado of Pensado's Place, and Johnny Geib of Home Studio Trainer and many more. But none of these sites are talking about BIAB. Just between Produce Like a Pro and Pensado's Place, they have nearly half a million YouTube subscribers. The same PGMusic folks that do the NAMM events could take that presentation and a complementary copy of an UltraPak and make guest appearances at all of these sites. These instructors are always looking for new products that will benefit the home recording enthusiasts in every aspect of the home recording process. That includes many tasks that BIAB specialize in such as practice, building their musical skills, scales, accompaniment tracks, custom tracks, songwriting, midi tracks, RealTracks and Supermidi, Videos, notaction, the Audio Chord Wizard, multitrack recording and on and on....

It seems to me that PGMusic being at NAMM builds business relationships whereas them having a presence on these type sites will build their customer base. Several of these sites are sponsored by specific products such as Presonus and specialize in teaching beginning to advanced procedures and techniques of that product line. Maybe PGMusic could offer a sponsorship to a site.

That particular customer base is a prime market of people who either don't know of BIAB or have heard of it and have many misconceptions about what it is and what it can do for the home recordist artist, producer, music student and teacher. Think of the number of artists that would like access to studio grade musicianship for instruments they can't play. Maybe many of them can play an instrument but not to the expert quality of a RealTrack session player. There's even value to the seasoned player. They may can play the instrument part, but at a particular moment, it is inconvenient to do so. Ask forum member Tom Adams if he wants to do a setup his PSG, tune it plus teardown when through at 2am to play 2 minutes on a song... or... pull up a RealTrack pedal steel?

In the past, I have been in contact with three of those instructors about other topics but mentioned BIAB during our conversation. All three have heard of BIAB but have very little knowledge of the program and what they do know is mostly wrong......

To me, it's a bit of "Will the real BIAB please stand up". Make these guys aware, and you will go a long ways to reaching a specific market that will benefit from the biggest open secret in music software.



Well said Charlie!


LyricLab A.I assisted chords and lyric app. Export lyrics and import directly into Band-in-a-Box 2024.
https://lyriclab.net
Play-along with songs you know and love, download SGU files
https://playiit.com/
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Charlie, maybe the new "I want a video that shows me how to .... " forum will help a little on that front.....




Steve

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Originally Posted By: sslechta
Charlie, maybe the new "I want a video that shows me how to .... " forum will help a little on that front.....


I'm sure it will Steve. I've watched most of them and they are very well done. I hope I haven't come across as critical or that PGMusic is not running their business to suit me... Not my intention to do that. I understood this thread topic to be about how members perception of the BIAB product changed as they actually delved into using the product and how much more the product really is from what one may initially perceive it to be.

I think BIAB suffers a similar fate to midi with the mass of musicians. Multitudes of musicians snub their nose at midi and think it's cheesy (the same word you'll hear many musicians say about BIAB). These same musicians will go to a movie and listen to an orchestra play over the ending credits and never knowing it's some twenty three year old guy in his bedroom in Colorado playing midi. Someone here on the forum commented that all the major hits in most genres today contain midi because all of the major recording label studios in NYC, LA, Atlanta, Nashville or London use midi. They use midi because they know the nuances of it, have the budget to have the best gear, sounds, software and artists to use it all. They also make huge profits because of midi production cost versus the 'real thing' in so many cases.

The big studios have known the truth about midi since its inception and long before the guts of the machinery to process midi would fit into a 49 key midi controller you can hold in one hand. They started with gear so large that had it's own room and cost hundreds of thousands of dollars and may be one of only three machines ever made. David Wills of ProaudioDVD's tells the story about touring with Michael Jackson and Michael used a piece of gear for backing tracks and effects that travelled on its own semi truck and was set up in a separate large tent with a/c and had its own maintenance crew and technicians. I've read similar stories about gear Stevie Wonder and Emerson Lake and Palmer purchased and used back in the day.

I personally believe the big studios and labels also know about the nuances and features of BIAB and use them on main stream commercial recordings. Just as with midi, they have the resources of people, budget, gear, and technicians to do things far beyond what a normal amateur user would ever do.

It's not hard for me to imagine some producer working with a big name artist on a project and coming home one night after a big Hollywood party at 1:00am , checking his email and finding the label wants to add a bow'ed Cello track to a mix he thought was completed and was ready to be sent off to be pressed and mastered the next day.... I think that producer would fire up his BIAB program and make that track...

I think many folks in the music world still have it wrong about BIAB.


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Just look at how many top session musicians have lent their name to BIAB by recording RealTracks. I'm pretty sure most of them wouldn't want the "cheesy" moniker associated with their names, so that says a lot about BIAB.


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Originally Posted By: jford
Just look at how many top session musicians have lent their name to BIAB by recording RealTracks. I'm pretty sure most of them wouldn't want the "cheesy" moniker associated with their names, so that says a lot about BIAB.


Absolutely. Great comment.


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Originally Posted By: jford
Just look at how many top session musicians have lent their name to BIAB by recording RealTracks. I'm pretty sure most of them wouldn't want the "cheesy" moniker associated with their names, so that says a lot about BIAB.

Yes, very succinctly put. True in more ways than one.


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"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."

"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."

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See the Melodist in action with our video, Band-in-a-Box® 2024: The Melodist Window.

Learn even more about the enhancements to the Melodist feature in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/manuals/bbw2024upgrade/chapter3.htm#enhanced-melodist

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