PG Music Home Forums PG Music Wishlists Band-in-a-Box Wishlist freeze part of a real track

I am playing around with 2010 which came yesterday..and I am really enjoying the new features.

I would really like to be able to freeze part of a track.

Eg I might like the way a bass plays the first 4 bars, and want to keep that, whilst regenerating the last 8 bars..

It would be great in a future version if I could highlight the bars I want, then freeze that part of the track, then regenerate what I want changed, then freeze more bars, then regenerate et al.

ATM i do this by generating a few tracks, exporting them as audio, putting them in sonar and then editing up what I want...so I can get there...

just a feature request.

cheers

Wiz

Good idea. +1

+1

+1 That's not a bad idea from 10 years ago.

+1 Excellent idea!

Something like this:

Great suggestion!

I sincerely hope that this could be implemented.

+1

+1 from me too.

+1

This was the NUMBER ONE thing I wished for when I first got started with BIAB.

And it is still the No. 1 feature I deeply long for.

It would make it so much easier to bang together a "perfect" version of the song in BIAB before dragging the audio into our DAWs for further development.

Also I would like the ability to ONLY generate new material for selected bars so that we can improve the performance or even alter the chords of a certain section without losing other parts of the performance that we have locked in (i.e. frozen) for other parts of the song.

Partial track freeze has been longed for, for a long time.
+1

Amen

+1

Still +1. I would like to be able to stay in BIAB.

It would be a good feature. +1

Keep well all
Tony

It is the ONLY feature I want in BIAB. I've given up on MultiRiff as it is currently "implemented". I've given up on the VST. I've given up on a modern GUI. I've given up on UserTracks.

I have found my workflow and I love BIAB. But a working freeze/regen bar by bar feature would help my workflow enormously!

Newbie here. I have just started working with Mac2020 version, and the first thing I noticed was a rhythm guitar would change feel from bar to bar. Some bars would sound bang on with the feel but others a little too rigid. I have tried adding the anticipation ^ before the chord but I don't think you can just do this for a single part (it affects all the instruments)? I agree, if you could freeze those bars that you like the arrangement that would be cool.

+100

THAT WOULD BE AWESOME!!!

Today I have to generate the same track 4 -8 times, and drag it into my DAW and then "splice" the tracks into one track and constantly trying to make it sound natural

+1 here as well... this would be a great feature!

This is going around again and deserves another +1

If there were just ONE NEW FEATURE for Band-in-a-Box 2021, this would be the one that I most want.

+1 for sure - would save so much rendering multiple takes and splitting them up in a DAW

+1 (think I've +1'd this idea at least 5 times!)

Today I regenerated a track about 15 times trying to get a cymbal crash in one place but not in another. Annoying (but still easier than exporting the whole thing!)

If one treats a RealTrack as if it is a live studio recording rather than a software program with unlimited regenerations of audio and apply techniques that have been used since the earliest days of multi track recording, 'freezing' part of a RealTrack is easy, fast and much more efficient than multiple regenerations of a random process. The BIAB Algorithm has total control of a regeneration, not the user. This makes it a completely random process since the algorithm has no way of knowing what particular audio the user wants to save.

Freezing a RealTrack in the BIAB Mixer on a Legacy Channel is a single track action, The BIAB Audio Editor Window has all of the DAW functions necessary to complete the steps quickly and with the same ease as using an external DAW. There is no need to render and export an audio track for editing in a DAW to preserve a specific piece of audio. Editing an audio file in BIAB is no more of a work around technique than doing it in a DAW. They function the same. If you encounter a recorded piece of audio from a RealTrack you want to preserve with a 'freeze', regeneration is not what you should do.

So, what should you do? BIAB has a feature that actuates an advanced freeze process that freezes and saves the audio exactly as it is at that particular moment. That action also automatically names that saved track and changes the color of the track giving a greater notice of the freeze than the snowflake of a normal freeze does. The action also transforms the track from a virtual track containing no actual audio into a WAV/WMA audio file that can be moved for editing in the Audio Editor Window. It is available with a few mouse clicks. It preserves the audio for editing and then placement anywhere it's desired to be on your Chord Chart for as many times as one wishes. It's possible to save a track then regenerate the track after a save multiple times creating several tracks for use to comp into a completely unique and custom track.

As users, we don't know the intricacies to how the BIAB algorithms search, select and compile the audio of a RealTrack. We don't know if it always chooses entire phrases or if it selects part of a chord from one area and the ending of the chord from another. If the latter is the case, 15 regenerations may be the beginning of hundreds more regenerations before that same audio is randomly generated again.

JohnJohnJohn nails the solution. It's creating a User Performance Track that contains the audio desired to be frozen and is a straightforward process. It's commonly understood that a User Track is a live performance but that is only one purpose and a single way it can be used. There are many different possible ways to create and use User Tracks, including creating one from a RealTrack performance that has specific audio desired to be used in a song project.

Thanks for such a comprehensive response! I've read it a few times, have checked JohnJohnJohn's post, and have read the section in the manual on usertracks, but unfortunately I don't understand what you're saying I'm sure it's my fault... is there a step-by-step guide or tutorial I could have a look at that might help me understand?

I'm not sure why the long and difficult to follow explanation from Charlie...

In the end, I think he is just saying "+1".

I think JohnJohnJohn's solution is exactly what we are all asking, for... the ability to isolate and freeze bars from tracks and then fill the unfrozen gaps with a regenerated performance.

It's not your fault, Mike. I left out the solution name and the step-by-step instructions.

Yes, I do give the wish list request a +1 - Even though "the ability to isolate and freeze bars from tracks and then fill the unfrozen gaps with a regenerated performance." can already be done in BIAB although not in the specific order that it's requested.

The tutorial/step-by-step instructions is to convert the track to a Performance Track and used the saved audio file to merge with a regenerated performance.

The Steps:

Right Click on the Track and select Save as Performance Track.

When you do this, BIAB does a lot of things automatically including saving an exact copy of the track, naming it which 'freezes' the performance. It renames the track, changes the entire track color and transform the track from a virtual track to an actual physical audio file in either WAV or WMA that you choose.

Important step: Make a copy of the saved audio file.

This Freezes and saves the audio file for further use in the song. The original saved audio file will be erased in a later step to return the Performance Track back to a normal track.

To isolate the desired bars for use in your project and regenerate a new performance to merge with the isolated and frozen audio; Import the saved copy of the WAV/WMA file from the project folder into the BIAB Mixer's Audio Channel. Using the default import settings of the Import Audio Command should properly sync the audio track and the Performance Track so when you press Play, the two tracks will play doubled which confirms the saved audio is an 'exact' copy and the two tracks are properly synced in time.

Right Click on the Performance Track and select Erase Performance Track and select Yes when prompted. The Track will revert back to a normal track. (You will be prompted to click Yes to Erase the Performance Track. Select Yes. The original file that was saved when you selected Save as a Performance Track will be erased but the audio file copy you made will remain.)

Regenerate the track creating a new performance.

Use F5 in the Bar Settings to Mute and Unmute the two tracks to play the sections you saved making a composition between the two tracks that plays the isolated bars with the regenerated track.

It is cool to find a work-around and thanks for the detailed explanation. However, it is a bit complicated and limited when a click and freeze bar feature would be simple for everyone to use and extremely powerful with no complexity!

When we say freeze part are we freezing say bar 5-8 of a certain track so when we hit Gen it will generate all other bars ?
or can we freeze the whole track and ( I actually remember now where this is Bar to Bar Regeneration)

Here's a link to a video I made that is unedited from start to finish including the extra time where I walked away from my computer during a audio render. Rendering is much longer than normal due to the video being recorded.. Didn't edit to ensure the video and audio remained synced.

Dropbox Link to BIAB APT Freeze and Regenerate a section of Soloing

Yes... the ability to freeze particular bars. That other thread is where it was discussed in more detail. I was wondering where that went!

I imagine that there would be editing activation buttons for each individual track, so that when checked you could determine which bars of a track should be frozen. That way you could freeze certain bars on all tracks OR just one particular track, depending on which tracks are activated for custom freezing.

Then, whenever the song is regenerated, the frozen content will remain frozen and untouched, and can later be added to with the newly regenerated performances.

Thanks for the video demo!! So you take a few steps to convert a track to audio and then mix and match bars from each track to comp a final track. Does it only work for two tracks or can you have several tracks to comp from? It seems rather complicated to me and I doubt I would remember all of these steps each time.

A much better way would be to select bars, freeze them and regenerate. Then, if I like some of the new bars I would freeze them and regenerate. I could continue an unlimited number of times simply repeating the same simple procedure until my entire track is like I want it.


BUT, assuming we may never get such a feature that actually works, my suggested work-around is as follows,

1) get your song finalized like you want it, proper key, proper BPM, etc. and then SAVE IT!
2) export all tracks as WAVs to mix in your DAW
3) next replace all tracks with the one RealTrack that you wish to use to comp a final track
4) regenerate and save all generated tracks out as WAVs (repeat 2,3 & 4 for additional tracks)
5) import all tracks into your DAW and do your comping there

<<Thanks for the video demo!! >>

You're welcome.

<< So you take a few steps to convert a track to audio and then mix and match bars from each track to comp a final track. Does it only work for two tracks or can you have several tracks to comp from?>>

You can have as many tracks as you want. If you want to edit a single RealTrack, for instance, if you had a stray or bad note you wanted to delete, use the Artist Performance Track save selection to save the RealTrack to audio, import that audio onto the Audio Channel and edit the file. It's good to do this in the BIAB Audio Editor because you can set the bars exactly with the BIAB Chord Chart using the Snap To Button. When I edit a RT, after editing, I move the Audio to the track the original RT resided on and replace the original with the edited audio file as an Artist Performance Track.

Alternately, assume you've used all seven BIAB Mixer Channels putting together a RealStyle and several other RealTracks you really like. However, suppose there are more instruments you want to audition and you'd also like to hear how different instruments will sound together. It sounds like this is where you move your project to a DAW and follow the process of your suggested work-around as follows:

1) get your song finalized like you want it, proper key, proper BPM, etc. and then SAVE IT!
2) export all tracks as WAVs to mix in your DAW
3) next replace all tracks with the one RealTrack that you wish to use to comp a final track
4) regenerate and save all generated tracks out as WAVs (repeat 2,3 & 4 for additional tracks)
5) import all tracks into your DAW and do your comping there

Here's a preferable way in my opinion and why it's a better idea to continue on in BIAB rather than opening a DAW.

1) Get your song finalized like you want it, proper key, proper BPM, additional instruments, panning, volume levels, effects and tone controls.
2) Drag the Master to the WAV Quadrant
3) Enter DAW mode to shrink the BIAB Main Page and drag the WAV file to the desktop or folder.
4) Import the WAV file onto the Audio Channel.
5) Move the Audio to the Bass Channel as an Artist Performance Track.

I prefer to do this method rather than move the project to a DAW and it's a better idea because:
. It's faster, it allows you to audition hundreds of other Styles, RealTracks, SuperMidi Tracks, or MIDI tracks playing over the band you created and are satisfied with. All six of the other BIAB Mixer Channels are now available to audition and add new instruments.
. You can use some of BIAB's unique features like changing the key signature and tempo and instantly hear the changes, decide to keep an instrument or track and quickly proceed on.
. Find an instrument track you want to keep for use when you move to your DAW, Right Click and save that track to an Artist Performance Track and the APT also names the audio file. It's ready to move over to a DAW. (An APT Save is approximately 2.5 times faster than an export render. )
. Change your mind, erase the Artist Performance, create a new mix (including chord changes, key change, modulations, tempo change and any other BIAB Chord Chart edit.) and render to WAV.
. Import the new audio file and replace the old Artist Performance Track and continue on with your project.

<<It seems rather complicated to me and I doubt I would remember all of these steps each time. A much better way would be to select bars, freeze them and regenerate. Then, if I like some of the new bars I would freeze them and regenerate. I could continue an unlimited number of times simply repeating the same simple procedure until my entire track is like I want it. >>

Well, this wish list as posted gives you a single regenerated track. The Artist Performance Track does that and a whole lot more. I literally could list a dozen other operations, all done within the BIAB software program with no other outside sources necessary and it will have access to all of BIAB's one of a kind, unduplicatable features, tools and capabilities immediately available. If you create a small chord chart and practice these techniques for an hour, you'll have it down pat and have a much more useful and beneficial process than this wish list request.

Another so far unspoken benefit is that many of these techniques once you've learned them are also applicable to the other more commonly known UserTrack. An Artist Performance Track is just another version of the better known UserTrack.

I hate to be so wordy, but the Artist Performance Track has been a feature of BIAB for six years and there's but a single post about it in the UserTrack and Other Add-ons Forum in all that time. With 32,710 members plus guests, the post only has 415 views and 2 comments. That tells me it's practically unknown but it's clear to me it's the best kept secret in the entire BIAB suite of tools and features. A book could be written about the techniques, processes and benefits I've found using it and applying it to the BIAB Mixer in various ways and I'm sure if others experimented with it, learned how to use it, that as they became familiar, we'd learn that what I know is only the tip of the iceberg to the capabilities of the user APT (Artist Performance Track)

I think they will add this feature for 2021 but the easiest way at moment I think is Drag n Drop.
You can edit a RealTrack by moving it to the Audio track and simply cut the section out you don't like and drag new section from any of the 7 MultiRiffs or just build it up from scratch in the Audio track:
See Full Screen Pic

Charlie, I appreciate your effort at enlightening us but I just don't follow you at all! I suspect this is why there is no conversation about this here...no one else understands it either!

For example, in your step 5 you say import the WAV into the bass channel. What happens to the bass track? What if I want to mix individual tracks in my DAW (and I ALWAYS do!) It sounds like a complicated process with serious compromises.

An option to simply freeze bar by bar would be far easier for most folks to use.

Charlie, I tried your steps and managed to successfully get all 5 completed. And, I ended up with the bass track labeled as Artist Performance track but the only thing audible on that track is the same bass that was there before. I'm not even following what the goal of these steps is. If the goal is to have a combined track of the whole song as audio why not just leave it in the audio track?

In 725 you had to save the SGU then reopen it to play the performance track that was moved back to the RealTrack slot, I don't know if it's been fixed yet.
https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=606757#Post606757
https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=607037#Post607037

I didn't read all of Charlie's posts but I watched the video, it had a RT in the audio track and and the same track in the RT slot, the sections that were muted in the Audio track were un-muted in the RT, so I would of thought you had to combine render only those two track to a wav file then import that wav file into the Audio track erasing the current audio track, then move the Audio track to the RT slot replacing the RT with the Audio Performance tracks.
So in 725 I had to save and reopen to get it to play.

So it seems that we're back to where we started. I believe that the O/P's suggestion was to just be able to freeze part of a track, and I presumed without jumping through hoops to achieve that.

A great team has put forward workable solutions, a big effort, and they are appreciated. But I guess we would all benefit if this could be more straightforward.

Another +1, but without the hoops and hurdles and obstacles. An integrated option would be the ideal solution.

"Another +1, but without the hoops and hurdles and obstacles. An integrated option would be the ideal solution."

(Videotrack, forgive me for stealing your line, could not of said it better)

Got it. The message is clear. So, another +1 from me too, but without any hoops, hurdles and obstacles. With JohnJohnJohn's comments, in six years, interest in User APT's has resulted in a total of four people out of 32,711 members.

Imagine how many riffs, perfect chord progressions, chord inversions and phrases have been lost over the last six years by up to 32,707 users. Imagine how many more of these will be lost if it's another six years before there's a straightforward, integrated option...

Plus 1 from me too.

Yeah...

I successfully managed to follow the steps and create an Audio Performance Track... but I couldn't figure out what the benefit was of doing that. I just don't see how this helps the process of preserving parts of a track performance without still ending up with a lot of head scratching and mental calculations and while still having to deal with a COMP issues at some point.

I appreciated learning about the audio performance track, and you spoke so highly of the things that can be done with such a track, so I am very curious about some ways that I could use the feature to my advantage...

But the Mac PDF manual only mentions "Audio Performance Track" once and gives no information about using it and doesn't even name it that in the menus, and the in-application HELP Browser also just has a short paragraph for "Save Track as Performance Track" and only states that it is for sharing a track with friends and doesn't even direct the user how to do it or take you to the menu item connected to it, which is NOT called "Save as Performance Track" and requires prior steps before creating it anyway.

Without your list explaining how to create the Audio Performance Track I wouldn't have been able to do it... so no wonder it is BIAB's best kept secret.

Obviously, like everyone in this thread, I just want the simple option of making a few clicks and saying "OMG... I love the riff the guitar does right there... let me freeze those bars!!" and then to continue working knowing that I have locked and frozen those bars in place for that track.

I hope Pipeline's prediction of 2021 is more than just a Pipe dream. ;-)

Well I bumped this post from Dec 2009, so that would be 11 years and Peter did reply and said it is technically possible.
It's a shame these things take so long around here these days, maybe they were young, keen and enthusiastic at one time but I wasn't here back in the early 90's to see how quick request were implemented so I wouldn't know ???
My hat goes off to Adar for the speed of the BiabVST (both Win/Mac at the same time) but he is held up waiting for the BBW4 side to be implemented by PG, but Adar is young and keen !!! if Adar could do the BB code it would be lighting quick.
With JJazzLab and Rapidcomposer they are keen and things are implemented so quick:

<< I appreciated learning about the audio performance track, and you spoke so highly of the things that can be done with such a track, so I am very curious about some ways that I could use the feature to my advantage...>>

Here's one:

"Obviously, like everyone in this thread, I just want the simple option of making a few clicks and saying "OMG... I love the riff the guitar does right there... let me freeze those bars!!" and then to continue working knowing that I have locked and frozen those bars in place for that track."

That's exactly what an Artist Performance Track does... exactly. The easiest, most efficient and quickest way is to save the entire track. All you have to do is open the track menu window and select Save as a Performance Track and those bars are securely locked and frozen in place for that track. But if you want to select a few bars and save them, an APT will do that too.

I don't know the workflow or tasks you'd rather do in BIAB to either avoid having to go back and forth between a BIAB project and a DAW or if you'd rather not have to use a DAW at all. So I don't know what particular tasks will work to your advantage. But, an APT can likely do any task that you currently leave BIAB and take a DAW in your present workflow, and do it without opening a DAW.

An important thing an APT does is to convert virtual BIAB tracks to a physical audio file. APT's expand BIAB's mostly MIDI based and virtual audio manipulation into a physical audio format. I'm confounded by the lack of attention toward the User track APT given by PG Music. An APT is a User RealTrack the same as the better know UserTrack but is more powerful in a project than the single track of a UserTrack.

Charlie, I can simply export a WAV directly without having to figure out and remember APTs. Then I can simply import that audio track back into my song if I want. I see absolutely no advantage to going the APT route. What am I missing?

Also, when I drag Master into the WAV quadrant I get one WAV file for each track. But I do NOT get a single file containing all tracks which is what I would think you want to import back into the song. However if I do an export as WAV then I get a single file and if I name it the same as my song it automatically appears in the audio track.

1) There are a lot of similarities between exporting a WAV track and converting a track to an APT. The obvious advantage to saving as an APT is simplicity.

At some point you had to learn how to export a WAV file. After exporting WAVs a few times, it became second nature to you.
If you review the various methods of exporting a WAV file, you'll easily see there's much more to learn and later recall when exporting to a WAV than there is to saving as a Performance Track. You can export a track by using the DAW Drop quadrant, export a Mix using the DAW Drop Quadrant, Selecting the WAV radio button from the File Toolbar gives 3 different selections to export your WAV file forcing you to choose one. You can also Save your song as a WAV file from the File\Save Special Menu. You can export a WAV file from the Audio menu at the top of the main page. I think the final method is to Save a track to a WAV file from the BIAB Mixer track sub menu.....

There's one method to save an APT. One place to access the APT feature. One click to select and complete the process.


2) Saving a Track to an APT is approximately 2.5 times faster than exporting the same track as a WAV.

3) Saving a Track to an APT automatically freezes the track. You have to manually freeze a track you exported if you want to use the original track material without it regenerating.

4) Saving a Track to an APT color codes the track so it's obvious at a glance you've converted the Track to an APT.

5) Saving a Track to an APT renames the track so it's obvious at a glance you've converted the Track to an APT.

6) After exporting a WAV track if you regenerate, the original WAV track is erased and the audio material is replaced. You'll have a saved audio file of the original but you'll have an extra step to import that audio file back into BIAB in order to use the original WAV file on a track. Saving to an APT, regeneration does not affect the original track, it's frozen and does not have the extra step of having to be imported.

7) If you want to regenerate the APT, select Track Actions\Erase Performance Track and the track reverts to the exact status of the track prior to the conversion making it a Performance Track.

8) An APT is a UserTrack. As such, it reacts to Key Signature Changes and tempo changes without altering the Audio content. so, when you come across that; "OMG... I love the riff the guitar does right there..." audio on a track, convert the track to an APT and if you change the key signature and tempo, the APT with the audio riff changes key and tempo too.

9) A frozen RealTrack is not a UserTrack and a frozen RealTrack will not transpose so if you change key, you have to lose your frozen track and regenerate it.

10) It's very easy to make an APT into a normal UserTrack so the APT will react the same as a UserTrack to play over any chord progression, in any key and at any tempo just like a BIAB RealTrack.

11) When you close a BIAB song that contains one or more APT's, BIAB automatically creates BIAB proprietary bt1 files in the save folder.

12) "I can simply import that audio track back into my song if I want." You don't have to import the audio file back into your song if you Save it as a Performance Track. It stays there and an exact copy is saved and named in a folder if you need to access and use the audio file.

That's due to your current DAW Quadrant settings. You can change the settings by Right Clicking on the DAW Quadrant Box and selecting Options for DAW Plugin.

But are we sure this is true for Mac users?

The only way I was able to create an APT at all was using your method where I first generated a WAV, and copied it elsewhere on my hard drive and then imported it back into BIAB as an APT. That's not faster... that is several steps beyond just creating a WAV.

I'll take another look at it, but since the Mac version has nothing in the PDF or in the GUI guide about this, I really wonder if you are describing a feature that Mac users don't actually have fully implimented. I would like to try this and see exactly what happens if I create several APTs and get a grasp on the benefits you are suggesting.

Charlie, so if I understand you correctly, you are using one of the existing tracks, in your example the Bass track, to store the APT that is a mix of all tracks (including Bass, right?

So, what happens to the Bass track while an APT is superimposed on top of it?

How do I solo just the Bass track?

Since the Bass track is frozen automatically, how do I regenerate the Bass track if I want to without erasing the APT?

How do I change the Bass track to a new RealTrack without erasing the APT?

Say I open an old project file where I have used your method, how do I even know what the Bass track is without erasing the APT?

The APT certainly seems interesting but so far it looks extremely counter-intuitive to hide an existing track and superimpose one over it. Seems like APTs should just be created in new tracks and not on top of existing ones.

And I cannot see this being faster as it requires many steps that a simple export does not.

But, the whole concept is interesting to me. Could I convert every track to be an APT of that track? And once I do that could I change key and retain the exact same riffs but in a different key? If so this is very interesting but still seems like a bit of a mess as the underlying tracks would still be frozen in the old key with the APTs changed to the new key.

JJJ, stay focused

Remember this idea (third post down):
https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=594448

You did not like that idea...

Essentially, what I believe will happen (IF!) "freeze part of a real track" arrives, it would probably be a "placement" of these frozen sections in timeline... Meaning, most likely they would act as a separate mixer TRACKS with "before" and "after" muted and the rest frozen. At least it seems the most logical thing to me.

I believe idea of opening the mixer to more channels is far more flexible and will give options and control far greater than just freezing sections. However, with limited time for music for many, I can understand why someone would just want to "freeze" the section and forget about it. Perhaps a button on the mixer:"Keep It Simple" would do the trick? By having that checked, it could create those duplicate tracks for you, assign mute at bars and freezing that section - Automation! Keeping duplicate Mixer tracks hidden, so you would see only your "normal" mixer, and sections as "frozen", but folks who want take advantage of more mixer tracks will be able to expand these tracks and do whatever they wish.

To me, both items (more mixer tracks and section freeze (bar by bar regen)) are very similar in nature...which is still more mixer tracks

I'm not against adding tracks to the mixer but doing so does NOT remove or reduce the need for a solid bar-by-bar freeze feature.

I can already do lots of tracks for comping if I want to. I can just create my song, save it and then fill all tracks with my solo instrument and get a quick set of 7 tracks for comping.

But being able to freeze one or more bars would allow me to stay longer inside BIAB. And I get that bars don't always line up so that is no problem...if I don't like the result I just hit regen again.

With just being able to generate any selected bars of a frozen track, would this do the job rather than having some method that keeps track of up to 255 bars of each track and with the extra tracks added to the mixer (and the F5 Bar Settings dialog).

Like if you had a Freeze option in the F5 drop down so you could set an instrument/s at bar 5 to Freeze and bar 8 it's set to Back to Normal ?
Would this be too much to keep track of or would it be ok ?

EDIT: or maybe both of the above

Sorry this is spread over so many threads I lose track

Both methods would work.

When I really think about it, I am probably more often going to want to regenerate sections of a track that I am not crazy about more often than wanting to preserve a few bars that are perfect. Either method of working (or both) would be great.

The way I would envision it is being able to activate an individual track (or several tracks or ALL tracks) on the mixer, and then selecting bars on the chord chart (just like selecting text with a cursor) to designate which bars will remain frozen. You could change it again at any time in the future to unfreeze certain bars or add to the frozen sections as you get more parts you like in further regenerations.

And as long as the normal FREEZE buttons are activated (as we have them in BIAB right now) the track will not be regenerated at all no matter what the individual bar settings. You would have to arm the track to regenerated for it to regenerate, and then I suppose the new individual bar freeze system would be activated to protect the bars that you have designated to preserve.

Maybe that "protection" is just to preserve the bars you wanted to freeze as an overlay which you could turn on or off on top of a newly regenerated version of the full track (thereby sort of building a new COMP track piece by piece from sections of the track where the only parts that you can hear are the ones that are not yet overridden by the presence of audio on the COMP track.)

Then again, that method would not give BIAB the opportunity to analyze what has been preserved and to more effectively fill in the gaps... but maybe that is too complicated anyway and BIAB will naturally fill in the gaps with a musical sensibility that doesn't require analyzing what has already been preserved.

<< Charlie, so if I understand you correctly, you are using one of the existing tracks, in your example the Bass track, to store the APT that is a mix of all tracks (including Bass, right?>>

Yes, I'm using the Bass Track to place an APT that's a mix of several tracks in my example but that APT can be placed on any channel. I normally avoid the Drums track because sometimes there's prep work to do to have it function correctly for instruments other than drums. Note the APT includes the original content material from that Bass Channel in the APT so the Bass instrument nor the original version is not lost.

<< So, what happens to the Bass track while an APT is superimposed on top of it?>> It's disabled but still there. If the APT is erased, the track returns to its normal state and so does the instrument on that track whether it's midi, supermidi, loop, or RealTrack. The instrument will also be the same version you heard playing prior to converting the Track to an APT.

<< How do I solo just the Bass track?>> If you just convert the Bass track to an APT, Mute and Solo continue to work normally. Whatever the media content contained on the APT when you converted plays normally. An APT can be any track in any media BIAB recognizes or any combination of any media types. So if you've made an APT as a mix of several tracks of different instruments, you can't solo individual instruments in that mix. That's the same in a DAW. You will hear the Bass or any other individual instrument as part of the mix you created.

<< Since the Bass track is frozen automatically, how do I regenerate the Bass track if I want to without erasing the APT?>> You have to erase the APT to regenerate. BIAB sees an APT as a final action to a track interpreting it the same as if you normally freeze a track - It interprets a freeze to mean you don't want to generate. It interprets an APT the same.

<< How do I change the Bass track to a new RealTrack without erasing the APT?>> Move the APT to another track. In many songs and styles, there are vacant tracks. However, even in a project where all of the BIAB Mixer Channels are used, it's still possible to create an APT and I can provide instructions how to do that if you have that situation come up. For now, just know that's possible to do.

<< Say I open an old project file where I have used your method, how do I even know what the Bass track is without erasing the APT?>>
First, APT's are a BIAB feature. This is not a work around or method I developed. I've studied Style demos, read the manual and forum comments about UserTracks to learn what I know. I don't clearly understand what your need to know what the Bass Track is without erasing the APT. If you've created and saved an APT and placed it on any BIAB Mixer Channel and close the file, that APT is saved with the file the same as if it were a RealTrack, Midi patch, SuperMidi Patch, loop or live recorded audio. If for some reason you want to return that track back to a Bass track, either move the APT to another BIAB Mixer Channel or erase it. Either method will return the Bass Track back to it's original format and media type. If you want to know what the actual Bass RealTrack, Bass midi patch, Bass Loop or Bass SuperMidi patch is, you should know what it is because you select and create the instruments of an APT.


<< The APT certainly seems interesting but so far it looks extremely counter-intuitive to hide an existing track and superimpose one over it. Seems like APTs should just be created in new tracks and not on top of existing ones.>>
You can place an APT on any track and it makes sense to use a vacant track if the BIAB Mixer has one or more available. However, it won't make sense in most cases to have two bass tracks.

Creating an APT effectively creates more tracks for more instruments and overcomes the 8 track barrier the BIAB Mixer appears to have. BIAB is capable of having dozens of tracks with dozens of instruments produced from a first generation and pristine analog file because until a project is rendered to audio, no audio of that project physically exists. The tracks, chords, instruments and patches are all virtual. No audio in the BIAB folders containing the RealTrack audio files are configured in the chord progression, tempo, key signature, feel and time signature of your specific song. Those folders only contain the audio that will be filtered and used to the specifications you supply by programming the Main Page of the BIAB program.

If you load _FLYAWAY.STY into a BIAB project, the RealTrack 1434 Bass, Electric, JazzFunkPoppy EV 16 110 is not audio.... It's computer data instructions. MIDI, SuperMidi, Loops and RealTracks can reside on the seven legacy tracks, Audio can't unless that track is converted to an APT. APT is the bridge that allows audio to reside on a BIAB Mixer legacy track. An APT can convert any sound media BIAB recognizes into audio that can reside on any track. An APT can be a mixture of any single sound media type or a combination of some or all of these sound media types and be either a mono or stereo track. An APT is a UserTrack and as a UserTrack if you change the key signature and/or the tempo and regenerate the song, the APT transposes as do all the tracks however, the underlying recorded audio does not regenerate, the audio is frozen so if you change any chords on the Chord Chart, the APT does not recognize the chord changes. The APT is designed to be the last step in your arrangement. In other words, create your song, enter the chords, key, tempo and style, mix to your satisfaction and when the song is ready to be rendered, convert to the APT. But if late changes do become necessary, simply erase the current APT, make changes and convert the new mix to an APT. It's all done with a single click of the mouse to either save or erase an APT.

<< And I cannot see this being faster as it requires many steps that a simple export does not.>>
This is true. However, with your method, simply exporting the WAV file is only the first step of your process. That WAV is not the finished product of your project. It will be imported into a DAW, edited, have effects and dynamics applied, possibly bussed into a mix of other WAV files creating a sub mix that's then mixed with even more tracks and busses before that WAV is rendered into a final mix. An APT has the capability to do many of those same tasks before the track is ever exported from BIAB.

<< But, the whole concept is interesting to me. Could I convert every track to be an APT of that track?>>
Yes
<< And once I do that could I change key and retain the exact same riffs but in a different key?>>
Yes, the underlying audio is not overwritten because it is a now physical audio recording and no longer a virtual data set of instructions.

<< If so this is very interesting but still seems like a bit of a mess as the underlying tracks would still be frozen in the old key with the APTs changed to the new key.>>
Once a track is converted to an APT, any underlying RealTrack, Loop or Midi patch is disabled. That's exactly the same as it is now if you open a midi style and replace each track with a midi patch with a RealTrack. Erase the RealTrack and the track reverts back to whatever midi patch was originally assigned to that track.

Quote by VideoTrack from the link in the post above:

"IMHO, you shouldn't need to go to an external DAW to get a Band 'IN A BOX' song to sound the way you want, and you shouldn't need to go to a DAW or have to bounce tracks to get Multi-Riff to work.
These features should all be part of the program, not requiring externalization."


VideoTrack explains it better than I've ever been able to. His explanation is exactly what the APT feature provides and has potentially been available to users for the last six years. The end result is you can have more complex and better track arrangements as audio files for use in your DAW or choose to complete your project with no need for any external DAW program.

Yes I agree with what VideoTrack said, so if they add those much requested extra tracks also then they can be used for the MultiRiffs function as well as any extra tracks just the in the BiabVST.
I think Peter said the extra tracks were possible also.
All done in Biab ! I really hope they will be the two main features added.
It's a shame they can't be just added any time without things having to be an upgrade selling point and having to wait for the xmas stocking.

I would upgrade just for this.

Yes. This is true for Mac since 2015. Watch the first 20 seconds of this PG Music video to see it.

Band-in-a-Box for Mac: Recording Audio

EDIT: This is an excellent video for Windows or Mac Users and clearly explains what the Artist Performance Track is, how to access it and how to move audio from the Audio Channel to another BIAB Mixer Channel. In the video, the demonstration uses live recording, I use this process to using RealTracks, Midi, Supermidi and loops as well as live audio. An APT is an excellent way to create a custom track using an instrument I can't play, or even an instrument I can play but a BIAB instrument can perform it better than I can.

Here are Andrew's original comments describing user Artist Performance Files.



Andrew - PG Music

Welcome to the UserTracks forum! [UserTracks (and other add-ons)] 225512 - 12/04/13 03:59 AM

There are a number of add-ons that people can make for Band-in-a-Box. This forum is for discussions about them. If you’ve made some, and want to give them away (or sell them), tell the world about them here! Or ask questions if you’re wondering how to make them.

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7. Artist Performance Files.

These are audio files, that you put on a track, that can also have the MIDI transcription of it. People hear the audio, and see the MIDI in notation/guitar tab etc. For example, if you are a great bluegrass fiddle player, you could put your songs in this format. People can listen to your real playing, see the notes on screen, slow them down etc. - all inside Band-in-a-Box where they can do other things like solo/mute other tracks, mix them etc.