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A retirement development that I play one or two dances per year got hit by the ASCAP rep and is forcing them to pay thousands of dollars per year so they can hold 6 parties a year in which they hire a band or DJ.
The parties are for the residents and guests, and the charge to the guests barely covers the entertainment and food. They usually break even or run at a slight loss.
That does not seem to me to be the proper place for ASCAP to be charging that much money.
I'm all for people getting paid for their copyrighted works, but come on, it's just a party between friends who live in the same place. What's next? Charging you to have a birthday party for your 6 year old and hiring a DJ?
Excuse the rant, I needed to vent.
Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton  Norton Music
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If it's a private event I wouldn't think that they should have to pay. I'm with BMI and I know that I cannot claim private parties on BMI live. It has to be a public event.
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I suspect because that's easy pickings. Of course the net result in situations like this often is that there ends up being no DJ or band or music of any kind and then ASCAP doesn't get paid (because no music gets played and no license is required), but it's the elderly residents that actually get punished in the end.
I suspect that the retirement community should have found a way to ensure it would be seen (in the eyes of the law) as a private, not public, event, in which case the license would not be required. However, that's hard to justify if the family members from outside the community are invited to attend.
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That sounds a bit fishy to me.
I played in a private club...members only.... so yeah, they can come in on private places too....
But they asked for set lists and looked at the juke box... which also was privately owned. They base the fee on the songs and the frequency of the live acts. It's all math. how many live bands, how many songs they play in a night, and apply the formula.
So if it's thousands of dollars, they might be looking at the venue in a retroactive sense which they might actually be entitled to do by law. Kinda like when the cable company catches you stealing cable. They determine when it started and can charge from that point plus interest and late fees etc... So yeah, if they have been using live music for many years and ASCAP just found out.... it could be painful.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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I have been playing at one particular retirement facility for five years, once a month in the memory unit and approximately six times a year in the independent unit for their happy hour. One very nice lady that I chat with both before and after the performance is always writing in a notebook. She mentioned one day that she had a list of my songs from each performance and almost in the same breath mentioned that her son worked for ASCAP.
So far I haven’t a clue of what she does with her “lists” and whether or not ASCAP is in contact the facility.
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Thousands PER YEAR for 6 parties totaling roughly 300 songs at most performed at them? I suspect that includes retroactive payments.
And just because I am always completely objective, let me ask you this. What if all 300 of those songs were written by Notes Norton? Would you be complaining that you didn't get your royalties? And the next devil's advocate step in my reply that will sound more snarky than it is intended to. Other than the possibility that you may lose 2 gigs a year, why does this bother you? You aren't paying the thousands of dollars. A completely disinterested party reading this is likely going to think those 2 gigs are what matters to you more than any kind of "It's the principle" motivation.
From my perspective, if it was 300 Eddie Anthony songs played at those 6 parties I would go to the ends of the earth to get my royalties. And as stubborn as I am about things like this I would probably spend more to get the royalties than the total of the royalties. Then again, I once spent $750 to sue somebody when the judgement was $650, so yes, you could say I am a vindictive SOB.
It's the "thousands" that is throwing me. I can't imagine 300 plays costing thousands. Could you elaborate on how many of those thousands they are being charged? 2000? 3000? 10,000? Could some ASCAP member who has collected those royalties please elaborate?
Once they know the fee per song, I anticipate that they will build language into the contract where they specify the number of songs you play and adjust the fee accordingly so they don't pay that fee. You do.
Last edited by eddie1261; 11/06/18 05:54 PM.
I am using the new 1040XTRAEZ form this year. It has just 2 lines.
1. How much did you make in 2023?
2. Send it to us.
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Would I care if my songs were being played at a not-for-profit private party?
I haven't written any songs, but I don't think that would bother me at all.
If you play songs made with my copyrighted BiaB styles at a party, I don't expect to be compensated for it other than the price you paid for the styles in the first place.
If you make a recording with a song made with my styles and sell a zillion copies, I'm happy for you, and you don't owe me any more money.
But that's different.
The thousands asked for is for a yearly license. They paid it last year, and ASCAP is asking for it again this year. I advised them to contact a lawyer.
It's a large multi building condominium complex, with a 55 year old age limit to live there. Perhaps ASCAP factors in the number of residents.
But I agree, it's probably just easy pickings.
I do know that I also play in commercial, for-profit establishments that do pay their ASCAP license fees. And I'm happy about that.
I do want songwriters and publishers to get paid for their creations, but I think a not-for-profit party on private property for residents and guests should not owe anything.
I'm not sure what the law is though.
Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
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One thing we agree on is attacking a senior citizen community that holds 6 events per year is a huge pile of manure, that choice of words made in deference to the filter the forums have that would have inserted asterisks where I defined it as what falls out of the south end of a northbound bull.
Bars that have bands 6 nights a week, I get that. But this? It's not like they are recording the shows and selling them. And in my opinion, that is where the line is. If I put out 30 songs and somebody wants to pay them 10 times each, I see that as a business opportunity in that it might generate CD sales. The only complaint I would have is if someone resold my stuff for a profit and didn't pay me. That would be that same stuff from the bull.....
They should absolutely have a lawyer involved. If ASCAP is so soulless that they go after this low hanging fruit, they need to be stopped.
I worked at a law firm once that had a private server for the IT people to use where we could put our own music so we didn't have to bring CDs in every day and risk scratching them up. Each user had the password to the server, and the rules were that each user's directory had to be password protected. So for Joe to get to Mary's music, he would need Mary's password. To the best of my knowledge nobody shared passwords, thus nobody copied tracks. Somehow the RIAA got wind of it. They sent lawyers in to grill everybody who had a folder. As you can probably imagine from my "edge" on display here, my interview was, at the very least, entertaining and fiery. On and on they went about the evils of file sharing. I sat there and said "I agree." They then asked why I participated, to which I responded "You have just made an accusation based solely on your supposition that I share the music in my folder. And to supposition, I say that you are going to have to prove that I allowed anybody to share my music. Also, are you aware that the music in my folder is MY music? Songs I have written, performed and copyrighted? So tell me, why you think you have the right to tell me what I can and can't do with songs to which I own the copyright?" (Insert the amount of expletives you can be sure were included. Again..... asterisks.)
That ended my interview.
I hate bureaucracy in any form.
I am using the new 1040XTRAEZ form this year. It has just 2 lines.
1. How much did you make in 2023?
2. Send it to us.
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I know someone who was turned in for playing his own songs at an event.
That did clear up rather quickly... With an annoying interview much as you had, Eddie1261.
...Deb
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Without knowing the details of the ASCAP billing.... it's just conjecture on our part to assume.
But as I mentioned... it does seem excessive. Then again, ASCAP could be cutting them a break depending on the details of the complaint.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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A retirement development that I play one or two dances per year got hit by the ASCAP rep and is forcing them to pay thousands of dollars per year so they can hold 6 parties a year in which they hire a band or DJ.
...
Excuse the rant, I needed to vent. It sounds as though they are expected to pay the same fee regardless of the number of hours of music played. Certainly doesn't seem fair. Oh, and venting is good for the mind and body. Feel free 
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Trying to understand this thread...ASCAP is bad because they are collecting royalties from an organization that used their licensed music? I don't see any issue here. If they used the music then they need to pay the fee. Is their lawyer also looking into the local Walmart because they charge them for the bread and potatoes they buy to serve dinner in their cafeteria?
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This is my take:
A: I own a department store that opens all hours, seven days a week. I play commercial music continuously on multiple speakers located throughout the store.
I pay ASCAP a fee.
B: I work in a retirement home. There is no music broadcast facility. A couple of times a year I invite a band to provide some music entertainment for the residents. The band plays for a total of, let's say 12 hours - per year.
I pay an ASCAP fee.
Should ASCAP fee A: be the same as ASCAP fee B:?
I'm interested in perceptions. What do you think?
BIAB & RB2024 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
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Trying to understand this thread...ASCAP is bad because they are collecting royalties from an organization that used their licensed music? I don't see any issue here. If they used the music then they need to pay the fee. Is their lawyer also looking into the local Walmart because they charge them for the bread and potatoes they buy to serve dinner in their cafeteria? I respectfully disagree. If it were a commercial venture I'd say it was right to pay, but the residents and guests having a party? What's next? When your six year old has a birthday party at your house and invites her friends over, should you pay royalties for the songs played? Like I said, I don't know the law and I suggested that they contact a lawyer, but this seems pretty excessive to me and IMHO an abuse of copyright law. Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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Many years go, before they changed the law, I used to eat at a small Italian restaurant. One bay in a strip center with a total of 12 booths. The ASCAP man demanded a license because he was playing the radio.
The owner got a CD player and then played nothing but Public Domain Italian folk songs.
Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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Hi all
Well not sure about this one, but I think the problem lies in the fact that money is changing hands as entrance price and performer payment maybe ?
Here In the UK retirement homes do not have an entertainment budget, and all the keyboard players that I know on another forum perform for free, well, maybe a bit of cake and cup of tea.
Where as I know folks on the same forum that live in the USA one in particular in the San Francisco area that make a living out of playing multiple homes he has a round and some times plays more than 1 a day
This begs the question who should pay the fee the performer or the venue, one thing for certain who ever pays it will be paid for one way or another from the homes entertainment budget.
But this is a much different scenario to someone who may well be retired themselves going round and entertaining the folks in a home for free. But still may depend on the public having access or not.
Just my take
Mike
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Trying to understand this thread...ASCAP is bad because they are collecting royalties from an organization that used their licensed music? I don't see any issue here. If they used the music then they need to pay the fee. Is their lawyer also looking into the local Walmart because they charge them for the bread and potatoes they buy to serve dinner in their cafeteria? I respectfully disagree. If it were a commercial venture I'd say it was right to pay, but the residents and guests having a party? Is the retirement facility a nonprofit? I suspect it is not and if not then someone should pay or just use out of copyright music.
Last edited by JohnJohnJohn; 11/08/18 11:15 AM.
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There is no set fee. It's based on the situation. Look here>>> https://www.howmuchisit.org/ascap-license-cost/According to this..... radio and television available over the air is NOT under this rule. https://www.paaba.org/2011/10/when-should-small-business-pay-ascap-or-bmi/ This keeps the small hardware mom and pop store from getting raked over the coals by ASCAP and BMI for the radio behind the counter for the clerk to listen at work.
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 11/08/18 11:26 AM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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This is a really tricky and touchy area, but I am going to have to side with John (J3) on this one because of one small concern:
The law.
People will hate me for making this comparison, but it is like the border issue. How many "illegals" do you turn a blind eye to? 1, 1,000, 10,000, 1,000,000, zero?
What does the LAW say?
Strictly speaking, if a law is in place (and copyright laws are in place to cover many things) you can't pick or choose which situations you think they should apply to, if those situations are already spelled out under the law. Is the ASCAP rep being greedy? That depends on your definition. They are mercenary soldiers. They get paid for a "kill." It is how they earn their living. ASCAP pays them for all the violations they can find. Same with BMI. Some may say they are the musical equivalent of ambulances chasers, or vultures or whatever other analogy you want to use. Others may say they are just doing their job. Who is right?
But does the law guarantee and uphold their right to do this, however cold-hearted and chiseling it may seem in some cases?
Yes. Absolutely.
It might totally suck, and in this case I feel sorry for everyone, but the law is the law, when all is said and done.
If the law does not work you have to make a new one.
I would like to see a law passed that would allow people to play show tunes for the elderly, but legally, I don't see how you would be able to do that without gutting the very intention and spirit of the law itself--which is to protect the rights of songwriters to get paid when their songs are performed.
A very thorny area, though, I admit. Very thorny.
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Well the retirement development sent it to the lawyer they have on retainer, and a couple of weeks later after much research he came up with the advice to pay the fee.
It seems aggressive of ASCAP, and since the license is a bulk license and they are not required to keep a log of the songs played, I don't think the proper songwriters are going to get compensated directly. Perhaps it goes into the retirement fund or something else.
The fee just goes on their condominium residents' monthly assessment fees and the residents will probably not notice a difference.
When it's the law, individual opinions that disagree are unimportant. It's obey the law, and if you want it changed, either (1) comply and then get a petition up to send it to your congress person to get it changed, or (2) comply without fighting it.
In this case, the second choice is IMO the wiser one.
Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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