I have a question for somebody who had been in (through) my situation. One of the hardest dilemmas with music for me for past years was making a decision between writing new songs or focus on mixing/polishing new and past material. Most of my tunes are in "sketch" stage. I keep telling myself that when I have more time, I will come back to these sketches and re-write them. Some, I actually do. The most painful part is time. I know that I can write 2-3 song sketches as I do now, with time it will take me to craft the mix of a single tune to the point of it being more or less complete.
I tend to follow this philosophy...Technology is a big friend of creativity. Do not have to go far. I am sure, most of us remember serial port dial-up modems and dual 5" floppy computers (the ones, without the hard drive)... Look at us now! I am not saying that skill is not important, it absolutely is, but I have a feeling that many routine things we do, when recording/mixing will take much less time in not too distant future.
I guess, the core of my question is to people that have more free time now, than they did before. Do you find joy, or at least interest in re-mixing / re-doing of some stuff from the past or it feels more like a fulfilling a commitment?
Misha, I generally work on one or two songs until they are finished. 99% of the time when they are finished I will no longer work on them. However on occasions someone will make a suggestion that I think would improve the song so I change it.
Every once in a while I will have an "I love me day" where I will go back and play some of my old songs. Generally songs that I did 2 or more years ago are not as good as today's songs because of either better equipment/sounds, better techniques or both.
IMHO if you only keep your songs in the "sketch" stage you will become very good at that technique but nothing else. Take a "sketch" stage song and finish it via mixing. Post it and ask for critiques. The friendly folks here will help.
IMHO the only way to get better at anything is practice, practice and practice.
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up. Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
Yes....I have some songs that I never fully finished up or developed further.
Although I do have just a couple of current song ideas ('sketches') I've not completed yet all others are abandoned ideas from my very early song writing years in the mid 70's and felt they were too dated to maintain my interest.
So I continued on to new subject matter and always finished them up to my satisfaction regardless of how much time it may have taken. For me...it's choosing an interesting, non-cliche subject to write about. That's the key in keeping me interested enough to finish up....the subject I choose and employing good lyric writing discipline.
I wouldn't think of myself as a song writer if I'd determined most of my writing attempts never surpasses the 'sketch' stage as you state it. If it's not a complete fleshed out subject or story line/lyrics....it's only a 'sketch' of something I was too lazy to think through and finish up. I am aware there are many that would disagree with my take on this subject.
I have no interest in achieving 'variety'....I aspire to 'quality'. Of course, 'quality' is ultimately determined by the listeners of one's music.
All of us here have our different approaches to song writing and what we personally want to achieve. To each their own....a good day to all.
I guess, my question is a bit vague. Here is analogy... Dave (BlueAttitude) helped me greatly by explaining some of his workflow. Since we had some tools that he and I both had, it was simple to grasp that knowledge. My mixes became better, and I was able to achieve things much faster, saving whole bunch of time (Thank you Dave!).
More on technology...Recently Nectar 3 came out, which has some amazing features, including "unmasking"... which basically carves out EQ of track that has frequency clash with vocals, so vocals sit better and whole mix is less muddy. Then for the most part you do just the creative stuff, adjusting things to your liking, not just spending some "quality" time on "peeling potatoes".
Another aspect, what I consider a "sketch" is intentionally leaving "spaces" in the tune unoccupied. My idea is that at some point in my life I will find enthusiast that would help me fill those "spaces". What I mean by that is this.... I am a crappy keyboardist or guitar player etc. I can practice day and night, but never be as good as someone who has strong relation to specific instrument. If I try to do it myself... I will surely fill those "spaces" but will most likely make a scarecrow out of that tune
Here is re-phrase of initial question. If I had 4-8 weeks of free time now and a willing, good guitar/keyboard accompanist, I would surely re-do some of my tunes from 10-20 years back, and I am positive, it would be a joyful process. I am not sure however how I would feel about those tunes couple of decades ahead, given that I am still alive and well. So my question remains open, do people find joy in re-doing things from way ago? Or when they do it, it is more like a tribute, rather than creative process?
Hi Mario, chulaivet1966 . Thank you for sharing! do people find joy in re-doing things from way ago? Or when they do it, it is more like a tribute, rather than creative process?
To answer directly to this.....yes. When I first got BIAB I had (5) songs pretty well finished except for a particular instrument track or two that I really wanted to add but I didn't have the skills to accomplish. IE: sax lines and/or a lead axe line....I can do all other instrument track requirements for my drivel.
Hence...after getting BIAB in 2012 and discovering all it could do I revisited those (5) songs with a new found energy, finished them up and they're on the BIAB sound cloud site.
If one is in a creative drought BIAB can be a real shot of adrenaline for those of us that need the final touches on a song that is so close to completion. Would I revisit those unfinished efforts from the 70's.....no.
I rarely go back to rework old songs. I have done that a few times and I'd rather move on and write new stuff.
If you're stuck at a place.... you need to figure out what you need to do to push past that point and get unstuck. So if you have a bunch of tunes in the "sketch stage" you need to work on taking them to rough finished.
Better to have 1 rough finished than 12 sketches.... in my opinion.
Once you have finished, well constructed tunes, then you can work on the mixing and polishing stages. No need to polish a sketch because it isn't ready for prime time. You could do it for practice but it's lots of time spent on something thats not finished.... finish a few.
Regarding going back to old tunes. Unless I do a rewrite of some sort, the song rarely gets reworked. I move on and keep writing.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.
The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
Thanks for feedback! Maybe I misspoke or the meaning of word "sketch" is different in music world than in visual arts. Judging by responses it is. In 18th-19th and even early 20th centuries, sketchbooks were very popular. The most common ones were in the form of dairies with text, poems (songs too) with hand drawings every few pages. Some of these "drawings" are complete miniature watercolors, some are ink sketches. In both cases-they are complete pictures, that tell a story. They are not "unfinished"...
There are some bands that have 1 minute songs... I am sure somebody will say: Yeah, whatever, they are not "real" musicians, songs must be at least 3:30 minutes or such. To me, these bands, if they produce quality and diverse material are geniuses. In my opinion, if a very short song has a form and a story - is a song... even if it is 30 seconds long (yes, I have heard such songs too )
Most of my tunes, do have a form and a story. Some of them are short, but that is not because I got lazy, but just cause I felt they are complete as they are. What I mean by sketches is that vast majority of them would require significant amount of time to re- mix them properly/ get rid of muddiness as knowledge and tools were not available at the time... And some of them will need musical enhancements such as instrument solos, etc... which I simply can not do well enough with instrument. I am sure that BIAB can solve at least some of these issues.
Seems that for most part people like to move forward... I like to move forward as well. However, I think it is very important to know how and when to go back and re-learn how to ride a bicycle and find that "forgotten" joy all over again.
<<< There are some bands that have 1 minute songs... I am sure somebody will say: Yeah, whatever, they are not "real" musicians, songs must be at least 3:30 minutes or such. To me, these bands, if they produce quality and diverse material are geniuses. In my opinion, if a very short song has a form and a story - is a song... even if it is 30 seconds long (yes, I have heard such songs too smile ) >>>
Maurice Williams and the Zodiacs have the shortest ever #1 song at only 1:36 in length released in 1960. #1 for a week but the song is still played on the radio and at every club in the Myrtle Beach area every day. It's been covered by the Four Seasons, Andrew Gold, The Hollies, Jackson Browne, Cyndi Lauper, Bruce Springsteen and The Dave Clarke Five among others. It was also featured in the movie, Dirty Dancing. Maurice Williams wrote it when he was 15 years old and the original version of the song has sold over 8 million copies. Not bad for a minute and half of work and I agree with you, obvious there was some genius involved.
I'm not sure I'd know how to answer this question. Certainly I don't have any burning desire to go back and "re-do" songs in terms of striving for a better mix. I've listened to some things I've done not just more than any other individual (that's probably true of everything I've done) but more than everybody else combined. It's hard to ignore such a huge chunk of my own audience. When I've done what I set out to do, then I'm finished. Whether or not the "song" is finished, I'll leave to others to decide. Since I'm not really a "musician", for the most part if I've delivered a lyric I'm satisfied with, then that's "the song" and most everything else is in support of that. Another version of "the song" is fine with me, as long as someone else wants to do it.
However, I've written exactly ONE actual song-lyric in the past 8 years or more. It may be that my best lyrics are behind me. I haven't even tried in so long, I just don't know. But for the first time in my life, I feel like I am becoming a musician of a sort. I'm drawn to simple musical expressions that fall under the very broad category of "production music". These don't require lyrics/vocals and really don't even require strong, coherent melody/leads. I dabbled in this years ago with BIAB, and am still doing that kind of thing now in projects I've started since 2018. Mix and production are bigger parts of what I'm looking for with these efforts, so "quality" matters more in them than in a song where voice and words take the center.
If, however, by "quality" you mean the quality of the song...then while I'm sure I can still write a truly crappy song: 1. When I recognize its complete crappiness, I have zero desire to finish it. 2. Should I screw up and finish it, if I have failed to remove ALL crappiness, nobody will ever hear it. I don't write a lyric just so a song will have one. Partial crappiness is another issue, but I'll know when sharing pretty much where that crappiness is already, and I'll have a different motivation for sharing it.
I'm redoing a decade old song as we speak. it's not on SC or anywhere but it's one of my favs of mine and I'm adding RT's I didn't have then.
These days I do whatever moves me. If it's a new song idea I want to finish while I'm in the zone, I do that. If it's a remix and new arrangement of an old song I get excited about then I do that. As long as it moves me and I'm doing something creative I'm not wasting time.
Now if someone said you MUST choose only one, I'd write, arrange and record a rough demo - what you're calling a "sketch" and leave the real mixing/mastering to somebody else but I don't have the luxury of that choice. Thank God with RT's I don't have to play a thing.
Tangmo, thanks! Surely an interesting take on things!
Ok, the quality part is... When share my tunes with close friends, I ask of them to give me a honest opinion. In most cases they share a valid complaint...They are having difficulty understanding lyrics because they say: It sounds like you are in barrel.. Why? Now I know..FeQueNcY ClAShes...it only took me 20+ years to understand the correlation
Another aspect what I consider a "quality" is adding parts / sounds / vocal elements that make tune more interesting, after initial "demo" is completed. Problem here is that no matter how great BIAB is, I prefer some human input on the specific tune, other than mine. Here is an example of that. I was working on the tune not long ago, and a talented singer helped me to diversify it, by doing some backing vocals. After she left, I thought that, song would be more interesting if she sang in a few other places in it. She does not record at home, so the only way for me is try to invite her over (30 mile drive each way) or to come to her if she has time for me.. only to put some vocal elements. That would take almost a day between prepping project, coming to her, explaining, recording, mixing, which I can use to start completely new tune which could be even better. I do understand the phrase "no pain-no gain" well enough, but a hunger for making new tunes drives me more. (quality vs variety)
Josie, Thank you for reply!
Seems like you have a positive and balanced outlook on things. Especially this:
"As long as it moves me and I'm doing something creative I'm not wasting time."
This line alone, answers many questions
I am sure one way or another, I will come back to at least a dozen of tunes that I wrote years ago and try to infuse them with power of RT or RD... My idea is, when time is not major issue to have a "spring cleanup" and just remix whole bunch of songs from years to make them sound better.
All the pro writers I know write as much as they can, and find the quality inside of the quantity.
If you look at the Beatles catalog they wrote hundreds of really bad songs, and they admitted it. But the ones that were good put them in the immortal Pantheon.
I have never once written a good song by sitting down to write a good song.
I just write continuously, and once in a blue moon I will hit it.
You don't want to hear the worst crap I have written, trust me, and if you see an opportunity for a funny wisecrack here, restrain yourself!!!!
("Oh, we've heard them Dave...trust me." I know...I know.)
David Snyder Songwriter/Renaissance Man Studio + Fingers
<<< I just write continuously, and once in a blue moon I will hit it.
You don't want to hear the worst crap I have written, trust me ... >>>
"Elton John And Bernie Taupin. ... Carole King And Gerry Goffin. ... John Lennon And Paul McCartney. ... Benny Andersson And Bjorn Ulvaeus. ... Ashford & Simpson. ... Burt Bacharch And Hal David. ... Mick Jagger and Keith Richards. ... Jerry Leiber And Mike Stoller."
Wonder how many times these guys said those words to each other. Remember, one man's trash can be another man's gold. Then there's Ringo's grammatically incorrect phrase; " A Hard Day's Night" that led to a Grammy and a #1 spot on the charts. I'll take your trash David...
I think people are misled a bit by the title of the topic it is not Quality over Quantity It is Quality over Variety
Let me put it differently: a book with 10 short stories, or same volume book with single story... For me, I enjoy writing short pieces as it leaves me more time to write other things - a variety.
And the second part of the topic in my view is this: Lets say I have 50 songs that are roughly 1:30 minutes each. Basic Intro, Chorus, Verse, Break, Chorus, Verse, Ending. Enough to get the feel of the song, story line etc. I know I can make them more... how to put it... a standard length song by adding longer complex intro, bridge, outro and ending. The problem is, I am not an instrumentalist and adding something dumb and un-interesting stuff, that I can play myself would make whole tune suck.
So my idea is that one day, if I find talented accompanist, pick a dozen tunes and record some cool instrumental parts to make them more interesting (quality ).
I have thousands of such sketches in a folder called "Cool Riffs" with short descriptions.
I will often get an idea, sit down at the piano and record the hook or melody as soon as it hits my brain and then file it. I have thousands--but don't know what to do with them. Yet I keep notes and fragments of lyrics and titles associated with them.
Also, I have hundreds of cool styles I found in BIAB where I came up with a V, CH Bridge idea, but no idea for a melody or title, or lyrics. Not yet anyway.
But I file them in a folder called "Songs in Progress" (with 3 backup locations, can you tell I am OCD??)--hundreds of "varieties" in style as well.
I can't tell you how many times I have woken up in the middle of the night and gone "Got it" and I run off to the studio because I remember that tune in the folder and I suddenly have the lyric or melody.
So, yeah, I get it.
I save EVERYTHING.
No lyric scrap from the car written on the side of an envelope gets to stay a scrap for more than 24 hours before it gets typed up and properly filed.
David Snyder Songwriter/Renaissance Man Studio + Fingers
regarding David's comment.... the songs of mine thaty I think are the good ones, people don't often agree with me. It's the ones I think are just ok... or so so that people say wow!
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 11/14/1810:51 AM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.
The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
I do have a bag of unfinished / half finished stuff too... But what I am talking about is a bit different. I do have dozens of actual mini songs. Music structure+lyrics recorded. Most are 2 minutes or less... Some are total c#ap, some are not horrible at all. Again, my hope is that down in line, try to put more "life" into them... When I have resource of time and proper music companion / instrumentalist with open mind. I believe that I do have intention to go back to some of these mini-songs, but not sure if I would feel the same about them 10-15 years from now.
I just hope, as Josie said: "As long as it moves me..." moment would not pass with time, and process would not feel as a commitment instead of creative process.
David, I had to chuckle when I read your OCD 3 backups comment. I have three backups also, two here and one in my bank safe deposit box. I must have OCD also
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up. Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
Since this is in the 'Songwriting' thread, I assume that you are talking about songwriting and not production.
In my opinion, songwriting takes both disciplined practice as well as playful wandering. The most important thing is having some means to track your writing; a place to jot down lyric ideas, to hum a melody, to take a note to 'copy the chord progression from song xyz'. This needs to be on you all the time.
The disciplined practice means often and regular. This often means not finishing something. Sometimes it means practicing a songwriting method. For example, have you ever tried writing a song with a refrain line? No? Go try that - now!
Have you ever tried using the minor 4th chord in a song? No? The Beatles did it often; go try that.
Have you gone the 'wrong' way around the circle of 5ths?
These are exercises not unlike practicing drum rudiments, or finger exercises on piano. Practice using them, and they will eventually make their way into your songwriting.
You don't just sit down and decide you will learn Für Elise on piano in a single, unbroken session - or never play anything else until you've learned it fully.
Why would you expect to do the same with songwriting?
Take advantage of every learning resource and resolve to attempt to put to use something that you've learned. Pat Pattison's songwriting course from Berklee is a great free resource primarily for lyric development.
I've been through it twice with an on-line cohort. I have forgotten most of what I learned, but I do remember two things that have made their way into nearly every song I've written since (35 songs since):
1. The Boxes (story development) 2. Bridges or pre-choruses with odd number of phrases are almost always more interesting than those with an even number of phrases.
He gives plenty of examples of these two ideas. I HAD to put them into practice for assignments for the classes. Now they almost come naturally.
I saved the videos from the classes. I should probably review them for new stuff to make 'normal' for me.
The OP goes on to explain that he feels quality is more human voices and human players in his song arrangement rather using RTs or playing it all himself. Instead of taking the time that requires to drive to connect with others in his locality, he prefers to write more songs for variety - meaning he has time to write more short songs.
Knowing what he's saying now, I would suggest connecting with more people online for input/collaboration and learning more creative use of the RTs cut and paste abilities or midi etc. On the other hand, there's nothing wrong with short songs. I think it's possible to have both variety (lots of finished short songs) and quality (as many fully arranged as he wants).
This could've gone in either the production or songwriting forum since it's essentially about fleshing out the arrangement he'd like to have versus the good but short songs he enjoys writing more than finishing arrangments.:)
For a moment I thought that I am speaking some forgotten dead language that no one understands anymore You placed toys neatly in one basket. Thank you for encouragement!
If you've got access to musician friends (or deep pockets) why not bring them into a project for a specific thing you're looking for? Besides being more "social", it can be good for the song to get what it's in your head recorded.
Internet collaborations are a bit of a different animal. I've done quite a few of them (having neither close musician friends nor deep pockets). If you think it will give you more creative control, best to think again. It's harder to communicate a musical idea with words than to get your point across in a forum post. What will happen instead is that your partner will bring something unexpected to the piece. Humility must kick in, and with luck their ideas far outshine yours. Nine times out of ten that's been the case with me and mine.
I'll give an example. It's (I think) the only collaboration Blue Attitude Dave did with me back in the day. Working under a dead-line, I wrote a pretty weak verse and a strong chorus of what was going to be a "Oh? You're going to break up with me? I'll double down on that, woman" song in 3/4.
I asked for help with the lyric as I was in bad health at the time. My co-writer turned it into more of a ghost story. Truth be told, I sang the song and still don't know what it's about. I'm not 100% convinced even he does.
I envisioned an acoustic guitar backing with a slide guitar flavoring. Sent a very rough sketch of the idea to Dave to do the acoustic. He did a great job--precisely what I was asking and looking for. Simple and elegant. Sent that to Jay in Texas for the slide spice. Extra fine. Then all that went to England to a producer-type who I thought might add some sweetening and do a proper mix. He didn't know how to do 3/4 and the first version sent back to me placed my vocals a complete beat off--maybe even two beats. We finally got that worked out.
When the song was finished, my simple acoustic "I'm done here" song had turned into a more synth heavy something else entirely. BUT (while I was sorry Dave got so buried in the mix), I LIKED IT. Actually, I think Dave liked it too, if I recall right. Or maybe he was just being all Canadian and stuff.
Anyway...try to work with artists, not artistes. Usually just one per song is preferable, unless you're very specific. Everybody is going to hear the end result differently. Be prepared to go with where the song is heading. But don't let it get ruined by having your vocals come in on the wrong beat.
Tangmo! This is great write. I truly enjoyed it. Thank you for sharing insight story!
My access to musician friends is limited as most of them are in cities and I am on a mountain with big bears (not a joke). I have a couple of people in my area that I can speak about music freely, but they are distant from the type of music I like to flirt with.
I have met some people in my ventures that can be on my "frequency", not pulling things to their side, like a child, screaming: ME,ME,ME.., but working as ONE. Some of them are far away now, some of them gained 60 pounds and TV is their best friend, some are no longer among us. Nevertheless, I consider myself lucky that I met such people and know they exist/existed.
Chances are, I might never find such person (or people) again, but on the other hand I might. Not trying to sugar things up, but this forum had been an inspiration for me. A few folks helped me greatly with technical aspects, some with creative and one member even volunteered to help me proof read my text and done great job of not "breaking bones" but very gently polishing lyrics. I will not abuse his kind gesture, but if I feel that a tune's lyric is special, I will likely to approach him again.
I am tempted to at least try "online" music collaboration, to see where the "wind in blowing". But before I do that, I guess I have to write something that is sort of universal, so it would not too confusing for the partner on the other end of the wire.
I remember recording that guitar part for you but don't remember the song, too many years ago! I do however own the CD that it ended up on, I'll need to pull it out and give it a spin soon
Misha,
I prefer going forward with new songs, that is the fun part for me. But sometimes I will revisit older songs and tweak the mix.
One of the disadvantages I have found with doing everything from writing, performing, producing and then mixing and mastering the song yourself is you tend to get too close to the project, can't see the forest for the trees sort of thing. And then when you listen back a few weeks after the fact you might hear things that you missed the first time around.
I keep a WIP folder: "works in process". Some of them are really good ideas, but I don't have the skill, talent, resources, etc. to 'realize' them (make the idea 'real'), so some are destined to stay in that folder. Some of the things in that folder are partial really good ideas, but not enough to create a whole (like a song with a great hook, but nothing else; or a song that needs a lyric, but I could never put a correct one together). Sometimes I go back and resurrect older work, after gaining new knowledge and tools...I have a couple that I'm working on right now...they are very good concepts, but have been waiting for RT's or other tools to get them from 'the idea in my mind' to 'that sounds pretty good!'.
I agree that it is easy to sketch...there are so many wonderful combinations of music/words/ideas that one could spin up. My philosophy is that I need to just focus on a few, apply myself to making them into creations that I really like, and accept the fact that not all the 'great ideas' will emerge as finished works--just some of them!
Just as I thought the post has exhausted its potential, got 2 nice posts. Thanks Dave, Tano!
Dave, I can relate to your last paragraph 100%. It is a curse and a blessing. A blessing in a way that you do not have to rely on somebody to fix things and sometimes "repairs" come with ease (sometimes not) I usually try to change things within a month of initial recording, before lichen starts grow over these tunes.
I misspoke when i said "sketches"... My sketches are more like raw demos. With structure, lyrics everything is there, but not ready for "prime time" one way or another. I have recorded over 100 of these demos. To be realistic, I am hoping to re-mix, re-record or change lyrics on about 20-30 of these when I have more time on my plate. For now, I feel that I still have potential of writing new things, so probably that is what I should do. At least my guts are telling me to do just that
Tano, Thank you for the input! It gave me an idea. I will start going through my stuff, pulling things that I want to re-do and finding their project folders. Thankfully I kept most of Cakewalk files from 20+ years back till recent. Probably now it is a good idea, to gather them from old dusty hard drives into something sexy, such as USB3 flash drive. And you are absolutely right about: "new knowledge and tools" that is my hope as well. That when I finally get to them I will know more and things will have a much better workflow.
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If you'd rather listen to these songs in one place, head to our Band-in-a-Box® Radio, where you'll have the option to select the genre playlist for your listening pleasure. This page has SoundCloud built in, so it won't redirect you. We've also added the link to the Artists SoundCloud page here, and a link to their forum post.
We hope you find some inspiration from this amazing collection of User Showcase Songs!
Our User Showcase Forum receives more than 50 posts per day, with people sharing their Band-in-a-Box songs and providing feedback for other songs posted.
One of our representatives will be happy to help you over the phone. Our hours of operation are from
6:00AM to 6:00PM PST (GMT -8) Monday thru Friday, and 8:00AM to 4:00PM PST Saturday. We are closed Sunday. You can also send us your questions via email.
One of our representatives will be happy to help you on our Live Chat or by email. Our hours of operation are from
6:00AM to 6:00PM PST (GMT -8) Monday thru Friday; 8:00AM to 4:00PM PST (GMT -8) Saturday; Closed Sunday.
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