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#501553 11/15/18 04:11 PM
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I am in the process of deciding what DAW I will change to. I like RB, but there are some things that happen repeatedly and they are annoying. Plus, I have found a few things that other DAWs have that RB doesn't.

I noticed a couple of people use Mixcraft. If you have time, would you answer a few questions for me?

Any particular reason you went with Mixcraft? What did you compare it to?

Any recurrent annoyances? If so, what are they?

Thanks.

2b


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There’s a lot of info here in past discussions about DAWs. I have always thought that RealBand shouldn’t be included. It has DAW functions, sure, but as the only DAW that reads BIAB files it has unique features. Thus even if you use RealBand along with BIAB, you should also learn a more traditional DAW if you want to get serious.

Ok, so which one?

I’ve tried many and used several in studios. Most have free demos. Most have similar features. The way they implement the features, and even what they call them, is what you have to evaluate.

For decades I used Cakewalk Pro Audio, which became SONAR. Now the essence of this is the free BandLab. Before we knew SONAR would be ‘saved’ I tried Reaper, Cubase, and others. The one I found easiest to transfer to was Mixcraft. I also liked that it had a good iPad app. Had I not been proficient in SONAR, I’m sure a different DAW could have seemed more sensible.

Note that I primarily use a PC for pro audio. I only used the Mac for notation software in the early 90s. Had I stayed on Mac, I would have spent more time on Pro Tools, which is used in the studios I go to. Once the PC caught up to the Mac, I had no need for one except to support others in the family who use one.


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2b, you have several threads going and most mention RB. I may have missed some things but you kept talking about things like you can't get VST's to load and other issues. I just revisited your thread in the RB forum concerning that VST issue and it ended on 10/28 with no further input from you saying if you figured that out or not.

Now you're asking about other DAW's and making comments about other DAW's doing things RB can't. Respectfully, you don't know enough to make that statement. You also also seem confused by some basic Windows operations. Obviously I could be wrong, this is just a forum and I'm not a mind reader but you need to be very proficient with Windows before you go jumping into something as complex as digital audio. You need to be the guy friends and relatives come to with their Window's problems.

As an outside observer my advice is to settle down and learn what you have which is Biab and RB. There are people here who have used Power Tracks and then RB for years and never use another DAW. Despite what some here will say, RB is a perfectly competent DAW. I'll repeat that Real Band is as much a DAW as any other name you've read about. Stay with it and learn it before flying around from one thing to another. VST's work perfectly well in RB, you just can't seem to understand instructions and I think I know why, it's because of the tech jargon. That cannot be avoided because a DAW is replicating what goes on in a real multi million dollar recording studio. Like every other specialty out there, studios have their own language. Earlier in your computer using experience were you confused by printer jargon like Landscape, Portrait, a Print Cue and stuff like that? It's because your computer print function is using the terms used by professional print shops. Exactly the same things as a DAW using the jargon of studios. You have to learn those terms and understand them. Trying to just jump in and make it work without that basic background is just crusin for a brusin, ya know?

This stuff takes time and patience, I know you probably don't believe me but you have more tools right now than you can learn in the next year. Or two. Or three. It's all there right in front of you with Real Band. The basic principles are the same from one DAW to another. If you can't figure out RB then good luck with the others too. RB is known as one of the easier ones to learn for a nooby.

Please understand I'm not talking down or making fun or any of that. 15 years ago I was in the exact same position. I knew less than squat about any of this and was a total lost soul but I gradually got it. It's like anything else it's easy once you know it, haha.

Bob



Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Originally Posted By: Matt Finley
There’s a lot of info here in past discussions about DAWs. I have always thought that RealBand shouldn’t be included. It has DAW functions, sure, but as the only DAW that reads BIAB files it has unique features. Thus even if you use RealBand along with BIAB, you should also learn a more traditional DAW if you want to get serious.
I’ve tried many and used several in studios. Most have free demos. Most have similar features. The way they implement the features, and even what they call them, is what you have to evaluate.


OP....note all of the above.

Take your time...check all the free demos to determine application intuitiveness and if the GUI is appealing.
All DAW apps have their place and one's choice is very subjective.
What's easy and intuitive for me may ugly and cumbersome for someone else.
Then....learn the program of your choice and know it will require some effort and patience if you're totally unfamiliar with DAW software.

I grew up with Sonar (Sonar X3 now) since 1994 so I've long ago found what's worked for me and at 71 I'm done upgrading. smile
Yes....I would recommend Sonar (now totally free) from Bandlab.
But, that's just me. smile

That's my take on it....

Last edited by chulaivet1966; 11/15/18 07:02 PM.
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Realband was my first DAW. I'll forever be grateful for it and the folks here because I knew zilch about computer recording. I moved to Tracktion so I could get their plugins (it doesn't come with those same ones anymore) and then tried a couple of others before I settled on Reaper.

Take advantage of the free trials and do a song from start to finish with each one then decide what's most comfortable for you. There's a learning curve with all of them. And each of us have our own workflows. I think Dani Lindroos uses Mixcraft and so does Alex Rand so you might shoot them a pm.

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Over the years I have played with a number of DAWs. I have used cut down versions of Cubase (Cubasis it was back then) CM Magazines DAW, Plazma, Music Maker, Sonar Producer et al. I have had several looks at Ableton but it is not for me. When the Cakewalk carfuffle hit last year I downloaded Reaper. Within two days I purchased a license.

I use BIAB to generate the song, I might use RealBand to make some adjustments to RealTracks, I might go to Sonar to edit or create MIDI parts (then render them to audio), I pull the audio into Reaper. Why this way, RealBand helps regenerating bits of Realtracks but I am more used to mixing in Reaper. Sonar has better MIDI editing in my opinion but I’m more used to Sonar. When it comes to slicing cut and pasting audio bits Reaper does this better and easier. Setting things such as slowing endings or whatever Reaper is far simpler than elsewhere IMHO. Once I learnt how to set up mixes I found Reaper easier and more flexible than Sonar.

Yep it took some learning and some of the stuff I learnt in Reaper can be applied to Sonar, which has help Sonar for me. Same can be said for BIAB. As I learn more, things change for me but essentially the learning for me is as much fun as creating. I still spend a couple of hours a day researching plugins and better methods for doing things but I’m lucky, I’m not on any deadline. At my age to get out and playing at all is a blessing. Making the tracks sound as I want them a joy. I believe there is not one product that does it all, neither am I looking for such a product but I embrace each for what they deliver and the knowledge they bring me. (I had a wise man once say to me “knowledge may be hard to acquire, but once you have it, it is easy to carry.”)

My thoughts Tony


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Jazzmammal,

I appreciate your perspective. A couple of thoughts:

I concede that some of the computer terminology is unfamiliar. At the same time, I don't think I am the only one who has trouble with RB.

I don't mind the time to learn RB. I agree with you that I should stick with one DAW and learn it fully. I would like that DAW to be RB, and I have put a lot of time into it. I like the interface, particularly because I have trouble reading things on the dark backgrounds some of the other DAWs seem to favor. The RB buttons are laid out well and I can usually find things.

My problem with RB is that there are a few things which seem to happen every session that are just too annoying. Examples:

I click on Edit and RB decides it is time to Initialize the Accompaniment Function. I have no idea why. If it has to do that before it can edit, why doesn't it happen as the program is loading? After it finishes, none of the functions work until I hit the Escape key repeatedly.

When I am editing RT's in RB, the arrow keys don't work for the transport function until I go to the bottom of the screen and hit the rewind key. Then they work again.

My RB crashes on a regular basis. Last night I was trying to generate an RT in RB so I could choose different sections and make a comp track. I clicked on the command. First thing was that I got two screens showing RT's, one over the other. I thought this was nothing so I chose an RT. My computer froze. Escape, escape. Tried again. Got an RT with exactly the same tempo, but it was obviously messed up. Dissonance, odd chords, tempo out of sync. I deleted it, erased the track and tried again. RB locked up my computer and I had to restart.

As far as VST's, I have tried several that should work with RB and jbridge (which I have). Sample Tank 3 won't work. Kent from PG had to take control of my computer to get APL Bass to work. Jamstix won't work. I couldn't get the free version of SSD5 to work. I like to work with midi so this is important to me.

As far as my computer, I have a laptop with 6gb RAM. It runs at 2.6ghz. BB works fine on it. This is my second installation and I try to keep it updated.

In the past, I have suggested that PG should consider improving RB and charging a little more for it. Perhaps a Lite version could be bundled with BB, with a better one available for an additional charge. But either way, the problems I have detailed above make the experience a bit less fun. That's why I am looking.

One last point. I appreciate your response Jazzmammal. I take no offense and I know you are just trying to help.

2b


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2bSolo,

Regarding RealBand, there are some steps you can take that will let the program work better. Some you may already know but I haven't seen them mentioned in other threads so the ideas maybe new to you.

RealBand (RB) handles RealTracks differently than Band-in-a-Box (BiaB). BiaB generates the first few seconds of the RealTracks in a song project then begins playback. The rest of each RealTracks is generated as a background task while the song project continues to be played. RB will not start until all of each RealTracks is generated so the time that it takes for playback to begin is much longer when compared to BiaB.

RB stores audio edits in memory. Each audio edit is treated as a separate audio file so the more you edit, the more audio files RB has to manage and the higher the probability the program will glitch or crash. Two ways to reduce the probability of a glitch or crash are to:
1) frequently save your work, once every five to ten minutes doesn't hurt and
2) use the Consolidate Audio feature. This description is from page 236 of the RB Users Manual and explains how the feature works.
Quote:
Use the Consolidate Audio Region feature when you are working with WAV (digital audio) files to recreate a track or region as one contiguous file. While not always necessary, this is especially useful in situations where you have performed many edits (e.g., Cut/Copy/Paste) and the resulting track has been broken up into many smaller wave “chunks” that may cause audio glitches and/or timing errors as your computer has to work harder to open and close the many small files. The “consolidate” feature effectively serves to “stitch together” these smaller files into one big file. The non-real time audio effects work better with consolidated tracks, if these effects are returning error messages the problem is often corrected by applying this feature. This command will offer the option to include silence when consolidating from the start of the song and tracks(s) don't start at the very beginning


Frequently following these two steps greatly reduced crashes for me. I believe they will for you too.


Jim Fogle - 2024 BiaB (1109) RB (Build 3) Ultra+ PAK
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My first DAW was Power Tracks by PG Music. Maybe it was version 6 or 7. I don't remember. The main thing I liked most was the Fly-By Hints. These helped my learning curve greatly. Along the way I updated to version 10. Although the program is considered limited compared to other DAWs its the simplicity of it that helped me get a good understanding of the basic process and terminology.
I tend to take recording breaks for many months or even a year here and there as I get involved with live music projects. Then I get back to recording.
A few years ago I started doing more recording and found PT wasn't cutting it for me. I was ready for more. I tried Sonar LE, Traktion, n-Track Studio, Music Creator 7, Cakewalk and Reaper. I stuck with Reaper.
Some of my favorite things about Reaper. (in no specific order)
* Kenny Gioia videos are very simple for me to find and grasp a task I want to attempt. Usually 10 - 15 minutes or less on any one task and I've got it learnt.
* Stable as an old oak tree. I have never, ever, ever had a lock up or crash that was a fault of Reaper itself. Overtaxed my RAM a couple of times though. That was my fault.
* It comes with very good and extensive plugins.
* Each and every plugin, including mostly free third party plugins, have worked with no issues at all. (I stick with VST, VST3, VSTi, DX and DXi. I do not install RTAS or AAX versions)
* The screen is easy to see and throwing random colors on the tracks improves this even further.
* $60
* Has a professional appearance so when friends/musicians come over they are impressed.
* So far it has been able to accomplish every audio task and even some video tasks I want.
* Many keyboard short-cut save time once learned.
* Easy, built in file directory cleaner. (as long as I have my project properly set up to save orderly into a project folder)
* The Reaper forum itself is rather helpful and friendly but I don't use it often because most of the answers I need I find in a Kenny Gioia video.


Does the noise in your head bother me ?
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Thanks for the tips, Jim. I do both of these things and I still get crashes.

Yesterday was another example things that shouldn't happen. I tried to use the Time Stretch feature. First it told me that I was going to run into existing data, so I shortened the percentage of stretch. Again, same message. So I shortened again and proceeded. It did the stretch but it left a gap, even though it had told me there wasn't room. The yellow box never went away. And the program locked up. And to top it off, crash. This feature has never worked for me without a problem.

I'm pretty sure I am moving to Reaper. I wanted to finish this project before making the change, but I don't think I can.

Thanks to all who have posted. I echo the comments about this group. You folks are great.

2b


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Your experience is same as mine. I worked with RB for a longtime and I still do, but for me it is get in and get out as soon as possible. Reaper on the other hand is a joy to work in. Primarily given that on my system it is and has been for years Rock-Solid. Can count on one hand the number of times it has crushed over these years. Add to that the Reaper Forum and many videos to view when you what to learn a new feature. And with Reaper there is always something new with constant upgrades. I know it is a sensitive issue to step into this forum and advise folks not to use RB as your DAW, but as we see here often, there is no shortage of good intentioned opinions.


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I finished an album of 8 songs in RB a few months ago. Some all audio, some audio and midi and one all midi. Zero crashes. Zero. For midi I used SampleTank 3. When I picked it up about 18 months ago it simply loaded right up. Zero issues. These songs all have vocals. I created several vocal comp tracks and edited the crap out of them. Zero crashes.

Do you guys who can't seem to get RB to work see a pattern here? I hate to be blunt but somebody can't read proper English. Seriously. The way RB works is described in detail all over the place. The Initialize Accompaniment function is well explained. It was the result of USER REQUESTS. If you're only working with midi you don't need it so we didn't want RB to automatically initialize that on boot up so it doesn't do it until it's needed. This is not a problem it's a FEATURE. Jeese Louise guys. Read, read and read some more.

AND why isn't all the talk about RB in the RB FORUM? There is a dedicated forum for RB ya know.

All the instructions for ST3 for example are on IKM's website along with RB's help files along with a ton of threads from the last few years right here. Doesn't anybody understand Forum Search or Google Search? Both will pull up all the different threads about installing VST's and ST3 in particular.

I swear, I'm just shaking my head here. RB does NOT CRASH, has NO PROBLEM with VST's. Oh yeah, I have Jamstix too, Garritan, several freebie VST's. NO PROBLEM.

Bob


Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Jeese Louise Bob, can't someone else voice an opinion which is contrary to yours?


Dan, BIAB2024, SoundCloud Win11, i7(12thGen), 32GB, 1TB SSD(M.2 NVMe SSD), 2TB Libraries, 1 TB(WD-Black), 2TB SSD(M.2 NVMe SSD)Data, Motu Audio Express, Keystation 61, SL88 Studio, Reaper

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Originally Posted By: jazzmammal
I swear, I'm just shaking my head here. RB does NOT CRASH, has NO PROBLEM with VST's. Oh yeah, I have Jamstix too, Garritan, several freebie VST's. NO PROBLEM.

Well then, congratulations on achieving certification.



-- David Cuny
My virtual singer development blog

Vocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?
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Originally Posted By: MusicStudent
Jeese Louise Bob, can't someone else voice an opinion which is contrary to yours?


Originally Posted By: Jazzmanual
I swear, I'm just shaking my head here. RB does NOT CRASH, has NO PROBLEM with VST's.


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Dudes, I've said this before. Contrary comments that imply there's something inherently wrong with the program need to be based on FACTS. Of course anybody can have any opinion they want no matter how stupid it is but in a discussion like this give me the facts please.

If there's a problem you post it in DETAIL so others can replicate it. Probably 95% of all these so called issues are user errors because nobody else can replicate it. It if is truly a bug PG will look into it and issue a patch for it. An example of that was the VST tempo lock issue. That was supposed to work for years and didn't until a couple years ago. In case you guys think I'm just a fan boy every year when the testing started my very first post in the RB test forum was "Have you fixed the tempo lock issue yet?" That was a bug.

Having issues in loading VST's is not a bug and saying the program crashes all the time is not a bug either because others do not have that issue and it doesn't crash for anybody else other than once in a great while. If you're getting more than the occasional random crash it's you, period. You should post EXACTLY what you did to create that crash and let all of us try to replicate it.

Now, what's the definition of a bug? A bug is something that is supposed to work a certain way according to the documentation and does not. If something is not in the documentation and you're having fun going off the reservation with stuff that PG doesn't recommend and you get crashes then that's on you. If you WISHED something worked a different way, fine request it but it's not a bug.

Does this make sense or am I talking to the wall?

Bob


Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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2bsolo has other threads about RealBand. This thread is not about RealBand.


BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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Originally Posted By: 2bSolo
Thanks for the tips, Jim. I do both of these things and I still get crashes.

Yesterday was another example things that shouldn't happen. I tried to use the Time Stretch feature. First it told me that I was going to run into existing data, so I shortened the percentage of stretch. Again, same message. So I shortened again and proceeded. It did the stretch but it left a gap, even though it had told me there wasn't room. The yellow box never went away. And the program locked up. And to top it off, crash. This feature has never worked for me without a problem.


This is an example of what I'm talking about. Of course you can do whatever you want and what makes you happy but why haven't you posted these two specific issues in the RB forum? And by posted I mean details like I highlighted track 5, measure 8-12, opened this window, entered that value and hit Enter and it caused the crash. Without getting into details when you got that message saying something about "running into existing data" it means exactly that. You set it up wrong so the process is going to wind up overlapping what's already there.

As I said earlier you have a VST thread started in the RB forum but you never finished it. People gave you pretty good instructions but at the end you never responded to say that it worked or it didn't. It sounds like it didn't. Well, don't just drop it, you're still missing something so go back to that thread and keep going with it.

Bob


Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Originally Posted By: dcuny

Well then, congratulations on achieving certification.



Use some logic David. It works on everybody's Windows machine. When it doesn't it means the machine is not stock, the person is using some old funky interface with a 10 year old driver or it's simply user error based on not following the proper steps. Trust me the testers do not find that many bugs and if all their setups were producing these problems everybody would know about it.

Just ask yourself this question: Where are the hundreds of angry posts from new users who want refunds? All we see are just a few from folks who never post specifics, they just say they can't make something work.

Bob


Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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You can now generate a melody on any track in the program - very handy! Plus, you select how much of the melody you want generated - specify a range, or apply it to the whole track.

See the Melodist in action with our video, Band-in-a-Box® 2024: The Melodist Window.

Learn even more about the enhancements to the Melodist feature in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/manuals/bbw2024upgrade/chapter3.htm#enhanced-melodist

Band-in-a-Box® 2024 DAW Plugin Version 6: New Features Specifically for Reaper®

New with the DAW Plugin Version 6.0, released with Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows: the Reaper® Panel!

This new panel offers built-in specific support for the Reaper® DAW API allowing direct transfer of Band-in-a-Box® files to/from Reaper® tracks!

When you run the Plugin from Reaper®, there is a panel to set the following options:
-BB Track(s) to send: This allows you to select the Plugin tracks that will be sent Reaper.
-Destination Reaper Track: This lets you select the destination Reaper track to receive media content from the Plugin.
-At Bar: You can select a bar in Reaper where the Plugin tracks should be placed.
-Start Below Selected Track: This allows you to place the Plugin tracks below the destination Reaper track.
-Overwrite Reaper Track: You can overwrite previous content on the destination Reaper track.
-Move to Project Folder: With this option, you can move the Plugin tracks to the Reaper project folder.
-Send Reaper Instructions Enable this option to send the Reaper Instructions instead of rendering audio tracks, which is faster.
-Render Audio & Instructions: Enable this option to generate audio files and the Reaper instructions.
-Send Tracks After Generating: This allows the Plugin to automatically send tracks to Reaper after generating.
-Send Audio for MIDI Track: Enable this option to send rendered audio for MIDI tracks.
-Send RealCharts with Audio: If this option is enabled, Enable this option to send RealCharts with audio.

Check out this video highlighting the new Reaper®-specific features: Band-in-a-Box® DAW Plugin Version 6: New Features Specifically for Reaper®

Band-in-a-Box® 2024 DAW Plugin Version 6: New Features Video

The new Band-in-a-Box VST DAW Plugin Verion 6 adds over 20 new features!

Watch the new features video to learn more: Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2024 - DAW Plugin Version 6 New Features

We also list these new features at www.pgmusic.com/bbwin.plugin.htm.

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