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Sometime back, when trying to figure out MIDI I did a version The Old Rugged Cross using MIDI. I tried the same using RealTracks but no matter the tempo I could not get the same feel. Old Rugged Cross RT The Old Rugged Cross MIDI The melody in both cases is MIDI. Does it matter? Tony
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It depends on who's listening, and what the context is. If you've got vocals, that's really what your listener is going to pay attention to.
In terms of feel, MIDI tracks works better here. For bass, drums and strings, the MIDI instruments are fine. But the MIDI guitar sounds cheesy to my ears. I'd be really tempted to replace it with another instrument, like an electric piano (as in the RT version).
I've got some nice sampled MIDI guitars. If you're interested, you could send me the MIDI file and I could render it using those so you could decide if there's a real difference. (I'll send you a PM of my email address).
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MIDI can do hundreds of times more than RTs can. However, MIDI sounds are very dependent on the synth (hardware or software) that you use to generate the sounds.
My advice is to get very good MIDI synths, and then you have the best of both worlds. If the RT works better, use it, if the MIDI tracks works better, use it, and if you need to edit, use the MIDI tracks.
IMHO it's not one or the other, but having both tools in your kit is better than either one.
It's like a mechanic having socket and crescent wrenches in his/her took box. Often one will work when the other will not.
Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton  Norton Music
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100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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Keith
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When a guitar string is plucked, it rings out until it's stopped, or it's plucked again.
On the MIDI track the non-bass strings of the guitar only ring out of a quarter note, and then stop. This makes the guitar sound more like a harpsichord than a guitar. Even using a better sampled instrument won't take care of the problem.
If you extended the duration of the notes so they sustained until that string is plucked again (even if it's another note), it makes the guitar sound a lot more authentic.
Another option would be to insert pedal on/off MIDI events to sustain the strings.
But I've found that editing the note duration only takes a short amount of time, and makes a huge improvement.
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When a guitar string is plucked, it rings out until it's stopped, or it's plucked again.
On the MIDI track the non-bass strings of the guitar only ring out of a quarter note, and then stop. This makes the guitar sound more like a harpsichord than a guitar. Even using a better sampled instrument won't take care of the problem.
If you extended the duration of the notes so they sustained until that string is plucked again (even if it's another note), it makes the guitar sound a lot more authentic.
Another option would be to insert pedal on/off MIDI events to sustain the strings.
But I've found that editing the note duration only takes a short amount of time, and makes a huge improvement.
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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Thanks for the comments. I agree with all that has been said. The point of this exercise was to demonstrate that sometimes the Realtracks sound better but loses feel. The feel can be made much better using MIDI but you need good instruments. Either way you need imagination.
Thanks for the help and comments. The MIDI I did some years back I probably should have reworked it a bit. The thing is the MIDI version just popped out one night, no real thought, it just happened in no time. The Realtracks version was this week and took hours.
David, Notes, Keith and Mario thanks
Tony
HP i7-4770 16GB 1TB SSD, Win 10 Home,
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I respectfully disagree. A guitar note has a natural fade like any other string instrument. Things like pick type, string gauge and type as well as how hard you pick the string all affect how long the string sounds. Ah, you're going to be picky about it... (see what I did there?)  I agree that guitar can ring out farther then a quarter note. What sound sources are you using? I have heard some guitar patches that are very close if not exact in the fade area. I should have been more clear: the quarter note duration is set in the MIDI file:  Changing the duration of the notes so they continue to ring past that duration corrects the problem, making the guitar sound much better:  And yes, I tend to have the note from a prior chord ring into the next chord on an arpeggio, even if it belongs to a different chord. The decay (that you pointed out) usually stops it from sounding too muddy.
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David, picky, picky, picky, that was a great pun! OK now I see what you are talking about and you are right. Except if the next note that you are going to play has to be played on the same string, then of course the first note would be cut off
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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David sent me an MP3 of a portion of the guitar bit he was referring to. Boy what a difference a little care and good guitar samples make.
Thanks David, lesson well learnt.
Tony
HP i7-4770 16GB 1TB SSD, Win 10 Home,
Focusrite 2i2 3rd Gen, Launchkey 61, Maton CW80, Telecaster, Ovation Elite TX, Yamaha Pacifica 612
BB 2022(912) RB 2022(2), CakeWalk, Reaper 6, Audacity, Melodyne 5 Editor, Izotope Music Production Suite 4.1
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When sequencing guitars you must analyze and think like a guitar.
CC64 (sustain) is very helpful as are lengthening certain notes.
Cutting off the natural fade/decay of a guitar note is often necessary. It depends on the type of music you are playing.
Doing MIDI is like a comedian 'doing' an impression of a famous person. Recreate the nuances of the instrument as the comedian creates the nuances of the famous person, and it matters less how good the tone is. Most bad MIDI I hear is not because of tone, but because of other instruments played like a piano,
Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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When sequencing guitars you must analyze and think like a guitar.
CC64 (sustain) is very helpful as are lengthening certain notes.
Cutting off the natural fade/decay of a guitar note is often necessary. It depends on the type of music you are playing.
Doing MIDI is like a comedian 'doing' an impression of a famous person. Recreate the nuances of the instrument as the comedian creates the nuances of the famous person, and it matters less how good the tone is. Most bad MIDI I hear is not because of tone, but because of other instruments played like a piano,
Insights and incites by Notes I added the boldness because this is the most important part of doing MIDI emulations. For me it is also the most hardest part. Trying to emulate an instrument takes time for critically listening to that instrument. That is why after 50+ years of playing guitar and 10+ years of playing bass I purchased a wind controller. I could not correctly emulate brass and woodwinds with my guitar MIDI controller, plus I really suck at a keyboard.
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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To add my 1/2 cents; The sound module or VSTis you are creating the midi file to "fit" makes a difference on how you treat the note duration and sustain.
*
In the RT version I don't hear the drums much. They are very quite. Perhaps bring them up or use the midi drums in place of them. That might bring some of the feel back. But, I know, that's not the point of the comparison, right.
Does the noise in your head bother me ?
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Hi All, looking at what David did we are mainly referring to the backing guitar. To simply do what David did above whilst making it better overall created some issues where notes sounded wrong particularly on chord changes. So once I extended the length of the notes I went through and made changes.
The really huge difference was in the guitars that David used. Even then he used 3 guitars that sounded very different on different systems. Each of the guitars had way more depth than the one I used.
As I said I did the MIDI some years ago, the instruments used were all native to Sonar. These days there are many more good guitars about, finding them at a good price is an exercise (believe me) but I am going through that.
The point I was trying to make and hopefully some saw it, is that sometimes it is better to use MIDI to get a feel that can be lost using Realtracks. I was trying to make this point after reading some of the frustration expressed by some folks about what should they use.
Put simply, use Realtracks where it sounds good and MIDI where it suits. I often use a combination of both RealTracks to get most of the song and add MIDI to make parts I don’t pick up with Realtracks.
David also mentioned he often uses piano MIDI SuperTracks which is something I have also done. I did it to get a cleaner piano. Now it is available I have replaced a RealDrum track with MIDI drums using a MIDI file generated from the RealDrums.
Horses for courses. We are very fortunate to have all these choices available. I am fortunate in that I have the time to play these games in my retirement. I have no timeline which is a huge advantage when it comes to avoiding creative frustration.
Once again thanks for your input. For me this has been interesting seeing where the discussion went. Most did agree that a simple little MIDI file that took a few hours to create had a better feel than a Realtrack generated job that took days to get as good as I could.
Tony
HP i7-4770 16GB 1TB SSD, Win 10 Home,
Focusrite 2i2 3rd Gen, Launchkey 61, Maton CW80, Telecaster, Ovation Elite TX, Yamaha Pacifica 612
BB 2022(912) RB 2022(2), CakeWalk, Reaper 6, Audacity, Melodyne 5 Editor, Izotope Music Production Suite 4.1
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[<...snip...>That is why after 50+ years of playing guitar and 10+ years of playing bass I purchased a wind controller. I could not correctly emulate brass and woodwinds with my guitar MIDI controller, plus I really suck at a keyboard. I find entering single note guitar leads with a wind controller makes them much more realistic than using a keyboard, but then sax is my primary instrument so I am much better at wind controller than keys. I suppose if my primary instrument was keyboard that might not be the case. I had an early MIDI guitar, but didn't like it. I'm sure they've improved them by now. Each string was on a separate MIDI channel. That didn't bother me, but the latency did. And it seemed to me the latency on the low strings was longer than the high notes, so when combining the 6 channels, it didn't sound quite right to my ears. Like I said, MIDI guitar was in its infancy back then, I'm sure they are better now. But the entire trick of making MIDI sound like the instrument you are trying to emulate is listening intently to the instrument you are 'doing'. How does it get its expression? How does it use pitch bend, tonal changes, sustain, attack, ornaments, and so on. Then figuring which of these you can reproduce, and how to go about doing it. Lean on the things you can reproduce, avoid those you cannot, and don't add anything the instrument can't do if you want a good emulation. Example: Adding pitch bend to scoop up to a note might be good for a sax patch, but it wouldn't work for a piano unless you are trying to make it not sound like an ordinary piano. The mechanics of the instrument play a very important part on how that instrument expresses itself. Trombone players have that slide trumpets do not so unless the trombone player is sliding to the note, all notes are tongued, slurs are more like legato tonguing. Guitar players finger vibrato goes from on pitch to sharp and back again and never below pitch unless the string is bent up to pitch from a half step below first. Pianists will often not lift their finger off a grace note until a few milliseconds after the note a half step higher is attacked giving a delightful burst of dissonance and then release. Guitarists playing double stops will often bend one string more than the other. And so on. I find that studying (with my ears AND my brain) how other instruments get their expression gives me better emulations. I also find it helps with non-emulative, pure synth voices as it can give an extra dimension to them. I also learn that the secret to good emulation is not in the tone at all, it's in the expression. It's easy to blame tone, but as long as the tone is 'in the ballpark' it's the expression. After all, if doing a guitar, what is good tone? Hendrix? Slash? Gale? Carlos? Burrell? Montgomery? Clapton? Page? Beck? Vai? Berry? Gilmour? Stevie Ray? Van Halen? May? etc., and on which guitar and what fx? It's not about tone, it's about expression. Get a couple of decent synth modules or plug-ins, pick an instrument you know how to play, and figure out how to get it to express itself the way your instrument does. There are 128 continuous controllers, many of which can help you with your quest. http://www.nortonmusic.com/midi_cc.htmlI started with MIDI sax, because it's my primary instrument. Eventually I got to the place where I could fool guitarists to thinking I was playing guitar, trumpet players to thinking I was playing a trumpet and so on. I find that fun and rewarding. And as you go on the journey yourself, you might find the same thing. The advantage of MIDI is that you can edit it millions of ways that are not available to audio (yet). You can add song specific licks, change the instrument, change the octave, change the chord inversion, and a zillion other things. You can make MIDI more your own music and less somebody else's music. Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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I had an early MIDI guitar, but didn't like it. I'm sure they've improved them by now.
Each string was on a separate MIDI channel. That didn't bother me, but the latency did. And it seemed to me the latency on the low strings was longer than the high notes, so when combining the 6 channels, it didn't sound quite right to my ears. That's absolutely right, because it takes at least two cycles to get a reliable measure of the frequency. Higher frequencies latch on faster, because they (by definition) are faster. I've seen guitar controller that's aren't a guitar at all - the strings are triggers, and the fretboard has sensors to determine where the fingers are. It solves the problem of latency by not relying on sound coming from the controller. The downside is that it looks and feels like a toy.  Along those lines, I think how the EWI doesn't use mechanical keys is a really clever solution on how mechanical parts can be removed from a controller.
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Way back in the early days of guitar MIDI controllers Yamaha had one the tracked extremely well. But it was rejected by guitarists because all 6 strings were tuned to the same pitch, G if I remember correctly. The transposing the strings was done with software. Guitarist didn't like it because it didn't feel like a guitar.
I have an old Casio MG380 that I use on occasion. I play mostly on the thinner strings and use the octave selector to play the lower strings. But sometimes I have to use all 6 strings and correct for the latency.
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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I had a Casio DG-20 guitar controller I purchased new for $99 in the early nineties. It had a built-in FM synth sound module tempo rhythm machine and four drum pads. Mario mentioned each string occupied a midi channel. This had a switch that merged the six channels into one channel.
A few years ago HBO had a series about a fictional band. One of the band members played a Casio DG-20. Interest in the instrument soared. I was offered $400 and accepted the offer.
Jim Fogle - 2024 BiaB (1111) RB (5) Ultra+ PAK DAWs: Cakewalk by BandLab (CbB) - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8 Laptop: i3 Win 10, 8GB ram 500GB HDD Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
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This discussion sent me out to find a good free or at least low cost acoustic guitar program. After several days searching, becoming somewhat disappointed and disillusioned I came across a freebie from AmpleSound -AGM II Lite. This VST actually appears to work, sounds good and is very adjustable. It installed without any complications and it is free.
I tried a number of SF2 setups that I picked up in Sforzando. They generally sounded no better or worse than what I had. They were complicated to install and took up more than their fair share of time and effort.
I downloaded stuff to work in Kontakt but disappointingly anything good wants full Kontakt and not just the player.
I downloaded several other VSTs that either did not work and or sounded like well you know.
AmpleSound AGM II Lite looks like a goer. I would like to let others know about it.
Tony
HP i7-4770 16GB 1TB SSD, Win 10 Home,
Focusrite 2i2 3rd Gen, Launchkey 61, Maton CW80, Telecaster, Ovation Elite TX, Yamaha Pacifica 612
BB 2022(912) RB 2022(2), CakeWalk, Reaper 6, Audacity, Melodyne 5 Editor, Izotope Music Production Suite 4.1
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I had a Casio DG-20 guitar controller I purchased new for $99 in the early nineties. It had a built-in FM synth sound module tempo rhythm machine and four drum pads. Mario mentioned each string occupied a midi channel. This had a switch that merged the six channels into one channel.
A few years ago HBO had a series about a fictional band. One of the band members played a Casio DG-20. Interest in the instrument soared. I was offered $400 and accepted the offer. My Casio also can play on only one channel. That is the way I use it most of the time. I also only use it chromatic mode, i.e. no pitch bends. When I try it it pitch bend mode the track is horrendous but in chromatic mode it is OK.
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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