Previous Thread
Index
Next Thread
Print Thread
Go To
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 57
N
NeilC Offline OP
Enthusiast
OP Offline
Enthusiast
N
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 57
Hi Experts,
Would anybody be able to offer up some possible explanations to the following,which is driving me to distraction and spoiling several weeks of work...I'll use bullet points to be as concise as possible..

1.I have a relatively simple 10 track guitar instrumental project in Cakewalk,comprising Bass/Drums/Keys/Strings as RealTracks from BIAB and 6 live guitar stems.
2. All tracks have some EQ and compression applied to get a basic mix I'm happy with.
3. Peak level at the Mix bus during playback is -14.3dB,with all the stems at similar levels with no clipping evident at any point.
4.No evidence of clipping or transient muting is evident during playback of the pre-mixdown version.
5. After mixdown however to a basic 44.1kHz/24Bit .WAV file,I can hear occasional very short term clips/mutes lasting only milliseconds but definitely audible and deleterious to the quality of the piece,despite no clipping evident on the meters and seemingly plenty of headroom.

All the guitar tracks have been "repaired" at some points using Cakewalk's AudioSnap to correct some minor timing errors,and I suspect this may play some part in the problem,as by moving one transient marker from it's corrected position back to it's original location,one of the clips/mutes was removed.

If this is the problem,I have the onerous task of hunting for and repositioning a lot of corrected transients in the six guitar stems.

Does anyone else have any experience of a problem like this after using AudioSnap,or any other proprietary Audio Quantisation tool,and if so why it may be happening?

This is my first experience of using AudioSnap,so wondering if I've made a fundamental error.

The issue is unrelated to any VST plugins applied as I've done several "vanilla" mixdowns with no effects and flat EQ and the problem persists.

Many Thanks,
Neil Cummins
Warrington
UK


Dell Inspiron 5748
iPad Mini.
iRig HD2.
BIAB,RB 2019,Cakewalk,Auria Pro,Cubasis,Garageband,Sampletank.
Lots of VST,DXi and FabFilter Pro Bundle.
Amplitube,BIAS FX.
Behringer MS20 Monitors.
Several guitars.
Always trying to leave the audience wanting less.
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 457
B
Journeyman
Offline
Journeyman
B
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 457
You might try and mute separate tracks and do a mixdown to see if it is a certain track that is causing the problem.A
Also if you have them sub to a buss you can try muting that buss. I have not used Sonar in a while but I believe you can disable all plugins with a button. You certainly have plenty of headroom.
Have you soloed each track and listened all the way through?


Edit: In Studio One Pro I use Audio Bend function which is like what you are using in Sonar. Once you edit a track it is doing this in real time stretching and compressing the audio. This takes some CPU power, it is wise to consolidate or bounce them tracks in case it is causing your computer to struggle. Also you might check your buffer latency setting and try increasing this if you need too.

Brian

Last edited by Brian Hughes; 12/29/18 02:59 PM.

BIAB 2024 Ultrapack- Studio One Pro 6.5 Windows 10

Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 57
N
NeilC Offline OP
Enthusiast
OP Offline
Enthusiast
N
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 57
Thanks for replying Brian.Yes,I solo'ed each track and there's not a hint of the issue I mentioned,which is the annoying part.

I haven't tried specifically freezing the tracks,so this is another angle of attack I can employ.

Let's see.

BR//

Neil


Dell Inspiron 5748
iPad Mini.
iRig HD2.
BIAB,RB 2019,Cakewalk,Auria Pro,Cubasis,Garageband,Sampletank.
Lots of VST,DXi and FabFilter Pro Bundle.
Amplitube,BIAS FX.
Behringer MS20 Monitors.
Several guitars.
Always trying to leave the audience wanting less.
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 20,644
Veteran
Online Content
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 20,644
Neil, soloing one track at a time may not expose the problem. Most audio clipping and distortion comes from gain. Thus your combined tracks may exhibit the problem while individual tracks do not. Here is how I mix.

In the mixer mode turn all volumes to zero. Then bring up the drums followed by the bass then the other tracks one by one. Carefully watch your output master while doing this. If it shows in the red start over.
Your song may not be as loud as you are use to but the clipping and distortion should be gone. Then you can mix master effect in, usually EQ & compression, again carefully watching your master levels. Note some use a pre-master channel for this.

I hope this helps and good luck.


Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.

64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 57
N
NeilC Offline OP
Enthusiast
OP Offline
Enthusiast
N
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 57
Thanks Mario....I'll give this a try alongside the track freezing suggested by Brian.

I think the best guess at the moment is that the audio quantising is the culprit,as it's the first time I've used this technique,and as I mentioned,I carefully located the point at which a very audible mute occurred in the master track and narrowed it down to one guitar stem exactly at the point where I had moved an audio transient from it's original location.

When I returned it back to it's original location in time,the issue on the master was removed when this new version was mixed down.

I have another related question which I'm going to start a thread on,on this forum.

Cheers!


Dell Inspiron 5748
iPad Mini.
iRig HD2.
BIAB,RB 2019,Cakewalk,Auria Pro,Cubasis,Garageband,Sampletank.
Lots of VST,DXi and FabFilter Pro Bundle.
Amplitube,BIAS FX.
Behringer MS20 Monitors.
Several guitars.
Always trying to leave the audience wanting less.
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 9,301
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 9,301
Yep.

I get that from time to time when I run Melodyne. The track looks and sounds good on playback but gets clipped on the render.

So.... to find it..... In CW.... simply freeze or apply the effects to one track at a time. It does the same thing as the render but does it in the tracks where you can now SEE where it's clipped.

It might be coming from the rendering of the multiple tracks at the same time.

The way I get around this in Melodyne is to go to the audio sections that are clipping and use the gain control function in AUDIO dropdown...... lower the original volume by -3dB and do a render. Check it.... undo and drop the gain as needed. Set your resolution and put markers there.... split the track if needed, to apply the gain to a limited area of the track. Look for the quiet areas in the phrasing.

Of course you can also simply envelope it out as well instead of the gain drop render repeat routine.

Anyway, I experimented to see what works and this worked for me on a few tunes. I have not figured out yet what is the root cause of this issue.


You can find my music at:
www.herbhartley.com
Add nothing that adds nothing to the music.
You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.

The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 10,099
Veteran
Online Happy
Veteran
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 10,099
Two thoughts: 1) As you sliced tracks to move audio around did you manually or automatically perform cross fades between the start and stop positions of each clip? By default Cakewalk automatically performs a cross fade between clips but that feature can be disabled in settings. 2) Once you complete all edits you need to combine all the audio in a track into one audio file. Highlight a track, move the cursor to the track area, right click and select the "Bounce to Clips" command.


Jim Fogle - 2024 BiaB (1109) RB (Build 3) Ultra+ PAK
Cakewalk - Zoom MRS-8 recorder
Desktop: i7 Win 10 build 2004, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD
Laptop: i3 64bit Win 10 build 21H2, 8GB ram 500GB HDD
Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,169
Expert
Offline
Expert
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,169
In Sonar set your theme to Mercury (I say this because it looks different in Tungsten and I’m not used to it but the same rule applies anyhow).

Go to the mixer panel (Console View). Run the song keeping an on both the little symbol next to the post button in the Pro Channel indicator. Assuming you are using the Pro Channel this should say reasonably green. If you are clipping you’ll get a red glow on the clips. Also keep an eye on the figure at the bottom of the volume indicator. It will show you the actual peak level per channel and or the master channel.

Also make sure that your track outputs are going where they should. It is possible for example to be sending a channel directly to the sound card and not via the Master. If such a track is clipping you might not see it in the mix.

Edit: an afterthought also check any hard panning or extra stereo width. For example it is possible to push cymbals out wide where they can really clip and not be noticed in the daw.

Edit: set your theme to Mercury

Just some thoughts

Tony





Last edited by Teunis; 12/30/18 09:30 PM.

HP i7-4770 16GB 1TB SSD, Win 10 Home,
Focusrite 2i2 3rd Gen, Launchkey 61, Maton CW80, Telecaster, Ovation Elite TX, Yamaha Pacifica 612
BB 2022(912) RB 2022(2), CakeWalk, Reaper 6, Audacity, Melodyne 5 Editor, Izotope Music Production Suite 4.1
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,753
Expert
Offline
Expert
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,753
Check for DC Offset.


Does the noise in your head bother me ?
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 57
N
NeilC Offline OP
Enthusiast
OP Offline
Enthusiast
N
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 57
Further thanks to everyone for some great ideas,some of which I had considered but others very novel.

My poor brain is fried yet further now as the problem completely vanished when I mastered to MP3 at 320/High Quality,but still there when .WAV.

Probably worth another thread at another time,in the interim I need to get those user manuals out again!

Happy New Year!

Neil Cummins
Warrington
UK


Dell Inspiron 5748
iPad Mini.
iRig HD2.
BIAB,RB 2019,Cakewalk,Auria Pro,Cubasis,Garageband,Sampletank.
Lots of VST,DXi and FabFilter Pro Bundle.
Amplitube,BIAS FX.
Behringer MS20 Monitors.
Several guitars.
Always trying to leave the audience wanting less.
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 10,099
Veteran
Online Happy
Veteran
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 10,099
Good luck with the Cakewalk by BandLab (CbB) user manual. CbB does not include a pdf file as all documentation is online. The last pdf file published for Sonar was about 1,645 pages! I was going to have an office supply store print out a copy until they told me it would cost almost $40!

Two more thoughts, 1) Post the individual wave files online and ask a few people if they can find out what's going on. 2) Download a free wave editor. Import the wave files into the editor. +++ Audacity +++ will have a red highlight wherever as little as one sample tries to be higher than 0dbFS during the import.


Jim Fogle - 2024 BiaB (1109) RB (Build 3) Ultra+ PAK
Cakewalk - Zoom MRS-8 recorder
Desktop: i7 Win 10 build 2004, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD
Laptop: i3 64bit Win 10 build 21H2, 8GB ram 500GB HDD
Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,169
Expert
Offline
Expert
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,169
These days there is not much about in books that I can see. However there is still the odd Sonar X3 book about and it covers more than just the basics. Most of this stuff has not changed all that much. There are some changes you can look up on the web manuals but you’ll get the gist. Learning Cakewalk by BandLab is a big job.

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dmusic-intl-ship&field-keywords=Sonar+X3+power&rh=i%3Amusic-intl-ship%2Ck%3ASonar+X3+power


You might find more on the web look up Scott R Garrigus he had heaps of stuff on getting the best of Sonar.

Just a thought

Tony


HP i7-4770 16GB 1TB SSD, Win 10 Home,
Focusrite 2i2 3rd Gen, Launchkey 61, Maton CW80, Telecaster, Ovation Elite TX, Yamaha Pacifica 612
BB 2022(912) RB 2022(2), CakeWalk, Reaper 6, Audacity, Melodyne 5 Editor, Izotope Music Production Suite 4.1
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 20,644
Veteran
Online Content
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 20,644
Here are the Sonar Docs from the last Gibson Cakewalk Sonar:

http://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=SONAR&language=3


Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.

64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,169
Expert
Offline
Expert
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,169
Here is a book on Cakewalk by BandLab. It is by Craig Anderton so it should be really good.

https://reverb.com/software/learning/craig-anderton/3292-ebook-the-huge-book-of-cakewalk-by-bandlab-tips-by-craig-anderton

Tony


HP i7-4770 16GB 1TB SSD, Win 10 Home,
Focusrite 2i2 3rd Gen, Launchkey 61, Maton CW80, Telecaster, Ovation Elite TX, Yamaha Pacifica 612
BB 2022(912) RB 2022(2), CakeWalk, Reaper 6, Audacity, Melodyne 5 Editor, Izotope Music Production Suite 4.1
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Go To

Link Copied to Clipboard
ChatPG

Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.

ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.

PG Music News
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!

If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.

A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."

"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."

"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."

Happy Easter! Holiday Hours...

2024 is well underway - it's already Easter Weekend!

Our Customer Service hours this weekend are:

Friday, March 29: 8-4
Saturday, March 30: 8-4
Sunday, March 31: closed

Regular hours resume Monday, April 1st - no joke!

Convenient Ways to Listen to Band-in-a-Box® Songs Created by Program Users!

The User Showcase Forum is an excellent place to share your Band-in-a-Box® songs and listen to songs other program users are creating!

There are other places you can listen to these songs too! Visit our User Showcase page to sort by genre, artist (forum name), song title, and date - each listing will direct you to the forum post for that song.

If you'd rather listen to these songs in one place, head to our Band-in-a-Box® Radio, where you'll have the option to select the genre playlist for your listening pleasure. This page has SoundCloud built in, so it won't redirect you. We've also added the link to the Artists SoundCloud page here, and a link to their forum post.

We hope you find some inspiration from this amazing collection of User Showcase Songs!

Congratulations to the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!

We've just announced the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!

There are 45 winners, each receiving a Band-in-a-Box 2024 UltraPAK! Read the official announcement to see if you've won.

Our User Showcase Forum receives more than 50 posts per day, with people sharing their Band-in-a-Box songs and providing feedback for other songs posted.

Thank you to everyone who has contributed!

Video: Volume Automation in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows®

We've created a video to help you learn more about the Volume Automation options in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows.

Band-in-a-Box® 2024: Volume Automation

www.pgmusic.com/manuals/bbw2024full/chapter11.htm#volume-automation

Video: Audio Input Monitoring with Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows®

We've created this short video to explain Audio Input Monitoring within Band-in-a-Box® 2024, and included some tips & troubleshooting details too!

Band-in-a-Box® 2024: Audio Input Monitoring

3:17: Tips
5:10: Troubleshooting

www.pgmusic.com/manuals/bbw2024full/chapter11.htm#audio-input-monitoring

Video: Enhanced Melodists in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows®!

We've enhanced the Melodists feature included in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows!

Access the Melodist feature by pressing F7 in the program to open the new MultiPicker Library and locate the [Melodist] tab.

You can now generate a melody on any track in the program - very handy! Plus, you select how much of the melody you want generated - specify a range, or apply it to the whole track.

See the Melodist in action with our video, Band-in-a-Box® 2024: The Melodist Window.

Learn even more about the enhancements to the Melodist feature in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/manuals/bbw2024upgrade/chapter3.htm#enhanced-melodist

Forum Statistics
Forums66
Topics81,397
Posts732,526
Members38,442
Most Online2,537
Jan 19th, 2020
Newest Members
danielsk, Mark Morgan, zagrajbarke, Ernest J, Izzy
38,442 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
MarioD 199
Al-David 124
DC Ron 115
dcuny 87
rsdean 85
Today's Birthdays
(charlie), WobblyGstring
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5