PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Songwriting Stepping away from the User Forum

Friends, I've decided to step away from posting music on the User Forum. I'm thinking it will be permanent, but--who knows? Just wanting you to know why I'm less present going forward.

While I'm waiting to rebuild from my HD accident, I've had some time to think about my participation in the forum. I love the wide variety of postings, and I'm so impressed by the creative energy and persistence of all the members. Again, this has nothing to do with any of that.

It's all about me and my motivations.

I found that the very nice, positive, complimentary feedback was like an addiction for me, feeding a need for recognition and making me feel proud--too proud--of good songwriting work. I also saw that I was sometimes working on writing music that wasn't necessarily what I wanted, but trying too hard to use/explore the features of BIAB, rather than using the SW to 'deliver' something that I heard internally--if that makes sense.

And I was coming to feel like each week I had to--just HAD TO--write something to contribute--again, totally contrary to how I feel about how and why I create music. I'm not a woodshedding type writer--I know that works for many--but, for me, it feels most true when I compose BECAUSE I feel there's some good idea or attractive music thought.

Anyway, this is about my own feelings about excessive pridefulness and wrong motivations. I'll probably check into the forum from time to time to listen in and provide feedback, but I kind of feel "songed out", without any really good ideas right now.

Thanks again for all the nice attaboys, and keep writing, you all are inspirational!

Tom,

I hope that you will not stay away for long.

I understand all that you are saying. But... I have always enjoyed hearing your music. It is original, unique, interesting. It explores areas that few others go. Fresh and refreshing.

"Every week" certainly seems like a lot of self-imposed pressure (unnecessarily).
You should write when you feel like. And write what you feel like writing. We are all different - and only certain people thrive on the write-on-demand or write-on-a-schedule thing. Those who don't should not feel as though that is any kind of reflection on their "creative worth" (I'm sure you know that).

Take some time. Breathe. Relax. Create.

Then return and delight us with your new creations.

fj

Hate to see anyone disappear. We all have things going on that are more important than any forum site. Handle the important things first.

Regarding the pressure to post.... scrap that idea totally. If you only post once a year, that is perfectly fine. Or if you are here on a daily basis, that's cool too.

Certainly when you write and complete a new tune, we want to hear it. I listen to way more music here than any other site and while I listen, I don't always comment. I suspect this is the case with most folks. I see 100 views and 5 comments on a given post..... well 95 people heard, read, and moved on. Such is life.... but don't feel like you have to leave. drop in from time to time.

FWIW here is my take on this. Never be forced to write for anything unless you are getting paid big bucks for doing so. Timelines kill everything, especially creativity.

But the big exception for forced writing is if you are trying something new like learning a new genre, software, or playing techniques like scales or theory. I personally don't call this forced writing but learning curves.

Everyone hits writers block so don't worry about this. Just do something different like read a book, take a walk, etc. You will eventually think of something to write about.

So write what you feel and post that. There is nothing saying that you can't post only once or twice a year. I write a lot but only post what I think is good enough to post. A lot of my stuff gets deleted as it is junk. I'm not like some who can post great stuff week after week. It may take anywhere from an hour to a month or two for me to write something worth posting.

So follow your heart. Post when you have something to post regardless of the time between posts.

PS - I have liked what you have posted thus far so please do not stop sharing.

Tano,

It was nice having you around. This was one of the more interesting posts I have read in a while and it has given me an opportunity to reflect on the creative process and this forum.

So humor me as I respond, because I am just thinking out loud creatively, prompted by what you have said. In advance, please know there is no disagreement here on anything, just massive pondering and that is all.

The first thing I have to say is that I have NEVER EVER in my life seen a place so conducive to artistic development as a process than I have seen on this forum. And I have been both a participant and leader in numerous workshops, courses, and classes in subjects as varied as creative writing, leadership, critical thinking and songwriting at the university level, and in professional organizations.

And I think I understand why it works so well around here—this whole artist development thing.

For one, the “Attaboy” mentality some people are quick to criticize is not really an “attaboy” mentality—it is an “affirmation and encouragement mentality.”

In every instance I have ever seen in 30 years, I have rarely seen criticism of someone’s deficits in a public forum (as opposed to private lessons) lead to advancement of skills. I have only seen public criticism lead to discouragement and loss of confidence most of the time, because most of the time most people do not know how to deliver public criticism in a way that is constructive. (Mind you, this is just what I have observed, but I have observed a lot.)

What does seem to work is when someone says “You know what really worked for me, you know the part I LIKED? The part I LIKED was….” Then the artist (who has more self doubt than he or she can handle to begin with) can take that “Here’s what I like part” and build on it. They will take it and run with it, so to speak, because it validates an aspect of their originality—that single spark that makes them unique. If they dwell on the strength, they will fix weaknesses they have already detected more than anyone, they don’t need to be reminded of those. They need to know what they are GOOD at. They need to be encouraged to keep going. The truth is you will only start to write good songs after you have written several hundred, or a thousand, so you might as well get started and feel good about yourself while you are doing it. Nothing critical anyone says while you are working on song three will do anything but make you want to stop.

Unfortunately, we live in a Simon Cowell world and some people seem to take great joy watching others be publicly humiliated—not uplifted. It is our version of Romans gathering in the coliseum, to watch people get slaughtered. It is the very bedrock of the reality show draw—and it is the basis of our current culture, more or less.

However, here on the forum, something magic happens—people get to experiment and be themselves and they get that artistic uniqueness validated. So people go on to write hundreds of songs and post hundreds of songs, giving not too much worry about whether they will be good enough. They just post. And as art would have it, three out of those hundred songs are great. It’s the way it works. Who else used this method? Who else wrote 3 great songs to every 100 bad songs? Lots of people—including the Beatles.

The other way it works is that most people on the forum who see this amazing benefit take time to respond to other people’s work even though it does take a lot of time and sacrifice of time to offer RECIPROCAL feedback and affirmation, because that is simply the way it works.

It could NOT work if all you did was post and had little time to respond to those who commented on your songs. Then, the whole system breaks down.

In sum, here is what I would say about this forum and the creative process:

1.) In 100% of the cases where I have followed “professional” advice on rewriting my songs they have ruined them. AND people on this forum have noticed, they have said offline (friends of mine): “Dude, your original version wasn’t perfect, but there was something magical about it. Now it sounds manufactured. This version is horrible. What happened? Who were you listening to? Who told you do to this? It doesn’t sound like you anymore. It sounds like…well, it sounds like crap now dude.”

2.) 100% of the songs I have done over the past five years or so that I feel are ok or good, or maybe great once in a blue moon, came out of the thin blue sky, out of nowhere, and were a direct result of me having a “safe space” where I could experiment and throw out a bunch of stuff without having to worry about a.) hidden agendas b.) spite c.) envy d.) jealousy e.) shallowness, etc ,etc. I.e., THIS FORUM was the catalyst.

Also, there is one absolute truism I have found over the years when it comes to advancement in the arts, any art:

The level of true advancement in your artistic sensitivity has almost nothing to do with the time you invest in yourself and almost everything to do with the amount of time you invest in others.

I have no idea how this part of the equation works, but it just does. Maybe it is a musical equivalent of “the love you take is equal to the love you make” or something.

**

Anyway, just a few random thoughts. I have really enjoyed your music, I hope you get that hard drive fixed, and if you want to have an addiction, there are a lot more dangerous addictions to have than this forum!

Tom,
interesting perspective, and I respect your path.
I will miss your new posts, hopefully not for too "very" long. I believe creating music is like a breathing.
You breathed out, you need time to breathe in

Before I joined this forum, I have wrote over 100 songs. Some are total crap, some actually I still like.
To be open, my reasons for being here are probably selfish. Most of my tunes prior to 2017 were in Russian. I want to learn writing tunes in English and this forum had been very friendly to me. I got to meet interesting people, listen and learn. Another aspect is that some members here have a very strong musical background and if I get lost in something like BIAB, lyrics, mixing etc., there are always someone kind enough to help. There is no bullying (almost) and no pressure.

What I am trying to say is, try to change your perspective of this forum. Think of it as a sanctuary, not a competition battleground. And may creative spirits find you.

peace,
Misha.

I've really enjoyed your contributions to both discussions and sharing your music. Hope you continue to visit on occasion.

Best of luck.

Charlie

Tom, I hope you will reconsider after a short break. I was always looking forward to listen to your songs.

You have also been very kind to listen and comment to other peoples songs and I am sure there are many who will feel a little sad not the get your opinion on their tracks. I know I will.

I DO understand what you are saying about trying hard to include BiaB in your song, when maybe Omnisphere or a Kontakt instrument could have done a better job to create the sounds you hear in your head.

I was close to falling into that trap also in the first few months as a member here, because IT IS nice to get feedback from the nice and experienced people that are members here, but I was "cured" when a few friends told me that they couldn't recognize me in some of the tracks I made with BiaB and those comments made me think...

Now I will only use Biab (mostly RealTracks) when it truly supports the idea I have for a song - that is why I haven't posted a new song in the last few months. Because I didn't have a need for BiaB in the last few songs I've made and therefore I didn't have anything to post for you guys to listen to.

I hope you will stay with us!
Will

Tano, I do understand where you are coming from. Sometimes in my life I have also felt the addictive need for approval and sought it out, elated where it happened and then depressed if I didn't get it or was criticized. There was also a frustration, and sort of a pressure to trying to do repeat performances and to keep proving my worth to others.

But as I have continued on my journey of songwriting, seven years now and about 350 songs, I have gotten better (more confident inside) about critiquing myself and realizing that many times what other people say is just their preferences or how they would do it and if you took their advice it would not make a better song. The real question is "do you like the song". Would you feel happy to sing or play that song over and over? So for me the need for "approval" sort of as an addiction has lessened a lot. I think when you feel happy with what you have done inside it doesn't matter so much what others think or say.

I have often questioned the whole "liking" issue and used to think "What does anyone learn from that?" But now I see it's more of an encouragement thing from like minded people that you contributed and put your heart and soul in trying to create something beautiful. I do like constructive comments if they are helpful and I will listen if I think they make the song better, especially from someone who is much more experienced than I am. But sometimes I listen and I just see it's how someone else would do something and it's not me and I just thank them for their input.

Everyone is different in how they create and no one should feel pressured if that's how creating works for them. I do write fairly frequently and am always doing challenges on various internet sites and that motivates me and keeps me writing. But not all of the songs are "hits" and sometimes they might just be bad, but it's okay and I don't try to judge them. I might use the idea in a song later or maybe a couple nice lines came out even though the whole song didn't work. So, I hope you read all the good input from the others here and feel that you are sooo welcome anytime you want to post something.

I hope you are able to recover your data from the loss of your hard drive. Then you can move forward in whatever direction is best for you and your music. All I will say is your presence will be missed if you decide it is best to follow through.

Dear "Tano Music"...

Clearly, you are an introspective person who takes inventory of your thoughts and actions to enable you to live your life in a way that satifies the demands of your conscience. Am I right?

I understand and support your decision to step back from the User's Forum. I joined in 2009 and have only posted seven songs because it takes me seemingly forever to make up my mind that a song is good enough for me to post. Occasionally, I drop out of the forum altogether for months at a time to prevent myself from developing a monomania about it. And then, after I've taken care of other business, or explored a new interest, or have re-established relations with family members and friends whom I've neglected because of my music-making activites, and feel ready to return, I jump back in for a few months and repeat the cycle all over again.

You are a unqiue and interesting artist, "Tano Music", musically and lyrically, and I've told you so in my comments on your songs and instrumental compositions. They have a personality all their own, are entertainingly eccentric, and musically adventurous. You've invested a lot of time and energy into them, and could probably use a break to refresh your outlook on making music.

So, go on, go ahead, step back, and strrr-retch out! Do some other things that feed your spirit and that make you happy. And then, one day, if you miss the camaraderie that the User's Forum offers to its members, and if you feel like you've got some new music in you that you want us to hear...

...then, come on back, Brother.

I wish you well in all the ways that matter to you!

Most sincerely and respectfully,

LOREN

Just hanging out is good.

Were it not for BiaB and this forum we would not be making music. We had left our band and quit recording for years when I bought an iMac that came with a DAW. A cousin told me about BiaB and it all started for us seven years ago. We were traditional bluegrass musicians but we tried a few different genres with BiaB and the encouragement of a couple of forum members set us on a new musical journey. A journey that led us to make real friends we met here.

Why the ramble? Well I think that had we been actively producing music when we came to this forum we might have a different perspective. Also we produce only around eight J&B songs a year and spend the vast majority of our time with other activities so we feel no pressure to increase our output.

As Black Hawk said “every man must make his own path” and we hope yours brings you back to this community. Beyond the ataboys, etc., your tunes, we are sure, bring joy to the forum. They are unique, creative and fun. We hope this will be but a brief sabbatical. .

Bud

I find it absolutely mind-boggling that in this day and age--on the Internet--there exists a forum whose members have displayed en masse (to a person they have never met) that they actually give a damn whether a person lives or dies or continues to hang out in their virtual world, where in the real world, much of the time, the message many people receive from almost every source is:

"I couldn't care less, unless I am making a profit off of you."

This is to me is absolutely astounding.

Tano, I hope you enjoy your break. I'm not here as much as I want to be. I admire your opening up like this and sharing your feelings. I've enjoyed your music and creativity.

Sometimes the road BIAB leads me down is different from how I initially imagined a song and for me, that is often a pleasant surprise. Other times it's quite frustrating so I do understand.

I also understand that if posting songs has morphed into feeling more like a chore and the music isn't coming from your heart there's not enough flattery in the world to fill the void you really want filled. Songwriting is such a personal self expression. Giving yourself what you need and the challenge you really want is much more satisfying. And more often than not for listeners too.

That said. Before you write us off on the forum too quickly....I hope you'll keep this in mind.

We have tried to create a safe haven of folks from beginner to close but no cigar all writing songs for the fun of doing it here. You don't have to write hundreds of songs like the Beatles. You can write less than a dozen a year like John Denver. You can collab if you feel like it or go it alone or do both. Dianne Warren did okay with and without collabs. It's entertainment. For every "you should" "you must" there's an exception. You can be yourself here and post as few or as many songs as you want - and come and go as you please. There are places where songs are ripped to shreds because that's easy. We chose not to do that on this forum. Don't wind up in one of those places. Do the music you want to do and enjoy yourself. And hey, If you can't get the sounds you want from BIAB/RB maybe you can stick a tambourine or a shaker track on a few bars - viola it's got a RT - then you could post it when you're ready.

'Til then we'll miss you and welcome you back when we hear you again. If this is goodbye, wishing you all the best in your life and musical endeavors.

Josie
PS., I lost 2 yrs of music files in a computer crash in 2016. Awful feeling. Hope you recover yours.

As usual, I'm late to the conversation again. Sorry, I just don't post much.

Tano, I've enjoyed your music over the years and I look forward to your "come-back tour" before too long. Best wishes!

This really has been an important discussion topic. This forum has been a Godsend for me as well. It is a completely unique and supportive space for musical artists of all levels. Thanks to everyone for being such good band-mates!

Mike Bonadonna
DC SpaceDog

I completely understand what you're saying. Floyd's comments are spot on, though -- maybe consider some time off as a "reset". It's about the music you want to make.

I have a pretty busy life and I go in spurts with the music. I'm getting started on a new spurt, but I've been gone for months. I had put another song out several months ago, but then it was months again before that that I was on the forum.

I actually feel a little guilty for disappearing and not listening to others' stuff while I'm gone, then popping in with my own. But it's the way my life goes. Everybody's got a different road.

Everybody gets it. We're social beasts. Everybody seeks approval whether they want to admit it or not. Addiction is not healthy, though. Most people don't realize that's what's happened to them when it does, but you have. That's good.

Reset, get an attitude that works better for you and we hope to see you around again.

I could expand on that, but I won't. Other than to comment
Simon, Amanda, Aleisha, and David have accomplished what
would have been thought impossible. They made the judge the
star of of the talent contest. Who would have thought?
In so doing, they appear to have reshaped the way an entire generation perceives music.
It's the act that people notice and comment on. Amanda never seems to run out of astonished. And Simon, really, I can't be the only one who sees sadistic exhibitionist in it.
And, what do we see when we watch the talent? Above their
heads in eight foot neon, the names of the judges. Have to give them credit.

Ed,

Without being overly dramatic, I find that whole world you have referenced to be very depressing. The media pretty much sickens me on every level. Still some good journalism out there, but so much of what we are exposed to is an overload of mockery, lies, fighting, chaos, propaganda, half-truths, slants, insults, self-aggrandizement, bragging and so forth. I used to look at people like that Simon guy and think "Boy would I ever like to meet you in a dark parking lot one night"...but now I just see a whole universe of stuff that is pretty pathetic. I take no "sadomasochistic" pleasure. I can't take it. It makes me physically ill. But hey, it's not just me. Psychiatrists are beginning to warn that watching the news causes anxiety disorder.

There is absolutely no doubt that the frequent use of You Tube, Facebook and the like has destroyed attention spans, made it difficult for people to read and comprehend longer works, like novels, or complex books, and that people are basically becoming stupid with self-imposed attention deficit disorder issues as a result of the crack-like adrenaline rush that social media soundbites give.

Preachers are beginning to advise that people cancel their newspapers and say "Just don't read or watch that stuff" from the pulpit.

I have a very few close peeps I hang with who are very amazing artists in different fields and they all tell me the same thing:

If you want to really be who you are as an artist you have to unplug. No social media. No t.v. No arguments, no conversations, no listening to you tube videos, no news feeds, nothing.

Just unplug, disconnect, close the door of your house for three years and write.

I think I am about at the point. I cannot concentrate on craft and pay attention to the "clamor" at the same time anymore.

Maybe that is my version of "Tano."

No need to stay tuned to current screaming matches or opinions to have material anyway. I always fall back on this:

“Anybody who has survived his childhood has enough information about life to last him the rest of his days.”

--Flannery O'Connor

Man is that ever dystopian...and I live in Flannery O'connor's hometown.

Bud