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....play it without analyzing it - assuming you know the first note, and the melody really well from listening and singing along.
For years - I've been wanting to do this....and I still can't - and I'm finally thinking it may be largely due to a lack of natural ability making it harder for me than others - or the wrong approach....I have tried and done some ear training, but not stuck with it....but on that topic, ear training is boring as hell and very, very, very hard for me - for those of you that can do what I described, did you learn through traditional ear training ? - or are there other ways. My very experienced guitar teacher hears a chord and the voicing - and his fingers find it almost immediatley - but then again, he is a full-time professional musician with exceptional talent....
Another thing I've noticed about my inability to do this - is that I've never really been able to hear and figure out bass lines easily - a teacher I went to recently felt that he is able to do what I described by hearing the bass lines, knowing the interval between them - and then deciding on whether the chord is major, minor, or dominant...
I've learned my songs by rote memory, with an understanding of their function, and memorizing the sequence by playing it over and over again and developing muscle memory in my hands/fingers to help - lately, I've been trying to hear the bass lines better, and be able to play and sing the song only with the bass line (or root notes on the guitar) - then adding the chords, which is more similar to the approach the teacher I mentioned above uses. I'm also trying to learn the bass line with numbers in addition to note names (something new for me). Again - really hard for me.
Now - maybe I just haven't played enough in my life, or done the ear training with programs enough - like I've been told....or maybe there are some other ways to practice and learn this that aren't as boring as the ear training ? I have limited time to play - and I really like the idea of knowing and memorizing songs as I develop this skill. Right now - I'm working on 4 Cat Stevens classics (aside - who likes the Cat ? - and don't bring his religion into this lol):
1.) Father and Son G
2.) Morning Has Broken - starts in D - a few little modulations in the intro progression, and in the entire verse/chorus
3.) Peace Train
4.) Wild World
No matter how well I know the melody and review the chords - my fingers never seem to get to the next chord easily and natrually - almost always a really long, rote process that doesn't carry over to figuring out the next song.
Thanks for listening.
Best,
Joe V.
Last edited by Joe V; 01/20/19 07:28 AM.
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Ya, you have to "hear\feel" the chord changes. It takes both time and talent. The more of the later the less of the former or vice-a-versa.  And regarding Cat, you ain't alone my friend.  Father and Son
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By “playing it” do you mean, for example, simply strumming the chord changes with no melodic hints, no runs, no fills or other embellishments?
Bud
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Bud, I've never been able to figure out how musicians can look at a melody lead sheet and call the changes based on that information. I get that you can strum in a root and then pretty much fall into the 4, the 5, or the minor. People including some very successful ones, do that all the time. What seems to be the desired skill is the ability to change on the right note.
I have had people tell me, well, it is the dominant feel of the bar that determines the chord. OK, fine, but in the sheets I play, there are patterns, say 2 bars C; 2 bars F; two of C and two of G. That's just one example. In front of me know is one in CMaj that begins e-a-g / e-f#-g.....That's comped with a Cmaj chord.
To me, it has to be a rhythm thing. But I know there is another level I'm not quite getting. This is composer stuff.
Last edited by edshaw; 01/20/19 08:11 AM.
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Learning music theory helps a ton for this. Yes, I've played with guys that can hear something and play it, but have no idea of the theory behind it. I've also worked with people that understand theory and it makes learning (and writing) a song so much easier. First learn the intervals; what does a root-5-root sound like (easy) Then root-4-root (again easy) Then minor 3rd root (again easy) Then move on, there really aren't that many. https://www.justinguitar.com/guitar-lessons/song-references-for-interval-ear-training-et-099Once you can hear intervals, the bass part becomes easier. Once you learn theory the rest makes sense, and it's based on the same intervals. We only have 12 notes to play with. It's like learning a new language but with only twelve characters. When I first heard Al Stewart's Year of the Cat I just had to learn those chords and why they worked like they did .. then I listened to the next song on the album (yeah it was back in the vinyl days) and had to learn On the Border (the 9ths, and the same melodic line working over different chords intrigued me). Have fun while doing it, but really worth learning the theory behind it all.
Make your sound your own!
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Hey Music Student - like your cover of Father and Son....when I first heard it, your vocal style reminded me a little of Johnny Cash - are you also a fan of Johnny C. ?
Yes Janice (or Bud ?) - that's what I mean - just strumming the right chords at the right time - adding nothing else...in fact, I can hear and play back melodies pretty well - but it's the chords that are my Achilles heal...I'm sure hearing chords like this is what separates the men from the boys - melodies are in the forefront and much easier to hear because of this - chords on the other hand - involve a lot of inference and are often more in the background sonically, so to speak.
RHarv - I know the theory....for me, I think there's a natural talent piece (and years of practice) that I'm missing and need to overcome. Also - being able to hear the intervals in isolation has not yet transferred to hearing the bass note well in the absence of the song playing, which is something important I think....
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Also - I suppose I should have asked this - how many times do you have to play a song before it is 'in your fingers for life'...quite often I learn a few songs, stop practicing them - and it's quite a bit of practice to get them back. And of course - it's different depending on so many things....maybe just asking so I don't feel bad for the length of time it takes for me ; )
Now some of the first songs I ever learned on the guitar are with me for life - and come to think of it - it probably took way, way, more plays of them to get them under my fingers since I was a beginner.
So often - I can play along with the lead sheet and feel like I can potentially sound pretty good - but then never get them to the point where they are in me permanently....
Back to how many times do you have to play and practice - for me, it's got to be in the hundreds, though if you start actually counting, I can see that leading to frustration.
Daily practice and review of everything learned - which can take a long, long time as your song list goes into the 'tens' - can be quite demanding and time consuming.
Again - I realize practice and time commitment separate the men from the boys....I'm just looking to make sure my practice brings the best bang for the buck - I'm not looking for any shortcuts, though for all my years, I wish I was closer to this 'play by ear' (if you know the song inside out) kind of skill.
Last edited by Joe V; 01/20/19 08:19 AM.
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If you can't hear the root (bass note) in your head, that would certainly make things difficult. I don't know how to teach that. Do you have a bass? Might be one way to try. So often - I can play along with the lead sheet and feel like I can potentially sound pretty good - but then never get them to the point where they are in me permanently....
I don't know if they are ever permanent. Especially as you get older. <grin> Example: Walk This Way .. played it many times with many bands (and many renditions) .. but I'd need a few minutes to remember it on guitar right now. Then again I could probably sit down and write out 6 Wives of Henry the 8th about 90% accurate without touching an instrument. Weird, now that I think of it.
Last edited by rharv; 01/20/19 08:31 AM.
Make your sound your own!
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When I say I can't hear the root notes - I mean in the ABSENCE of the sheet music or the original recording playing....I'm wondering if you can hear what the root is while recalling the melody, as long as you know the key and the first melody note or chord....
Then again - memory is a tricky thing - sometimes you remember stuff you don't want to - or get a tune stuck in your head - a riff or something you don't even like (one of my friends shared that he had that keyboard riff to Billy Joel's 'the entertainer' going on for far too long)...also depends on the emotional component assiciated with what you're remembering....
Last edited by Joe V; 01/20/19 09:44 AM.
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I always thought the piano was an easier way to chart songs from the radio than the guitar. Now, I realize it is the other way around.
Most melodies may be recognized with the 1-3-5 of the dominant chord. That means nine notes, for all practical purposes, the triads of the 1-4-5. That's kind of what make BaiB work. The mind will fill in what isn't there.
Last edited by edshaw; 01/20/19 11:59 AM.
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Joe,
I'm a keyboard player and early on in life (18-30 years old), I was a keyboard salesman. At one of the places I worked, a shopping centre, I used to spend much of the day playing songs. It was at this job that I learnt to play by ear. And you're right. It takes practice.
What I found was that once I had mastered one song by ear, each successive song got easier. This job really changed my life and my approach to music!
To make life playing in a shopping a bit more interesting, some days can be pretty long, I used to challenge myself to play in different keys. I found the melodies easy to transpose in my head because I had a good understanding of scales and once I'd learnt to trust my ear, going from note to note in different keys was fairly straightforward.
To transpose chords, initially I began by using scales. As time progressed, though, I found that thinking of chords as I, IV, V made life much much easier. In Nashville notation this would be 1, 4, 5. Doing this, I managed to comfortably play any song that I learnt by ear in keys up to 4 sharps and 4 flats. While I'm not good enough to play a song after hearing it one time only, once I've heard a song a few times and I can hum along with it, I can then usually play it. I found lyrics also helped me remember the melody.
So, at the end of the day, my ability to play by ear came from the following...
1. Learning scales as it makes playing melodic intervals in different keys easier.
2. Learning chords as I (tonic), IV (subdominant), V(dominant), II (supertonic), III (mediant), VI (submediant), VII (subtonic)
3. Learning to identify the nature/texture of a chord sound... for example: the major sound, the minor sound, the seventh sound, the diminished sound, the augmented sound. These are the ones that form the basis of 99% of chords. Once the nature of a chord is identified, it's then only necessary to put a pitch to it.
4. Learning the lyrics.
For me, playing by ear is more about "playing by theory" with confidence in my ear's ability to identify what I'm hearing.
Regards,
Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2024
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Thanks all for your great insights...
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I think you are reaching too far to start. Ear training of individual notes is not going to teach you how to accompany a melody.
Chord theory and understanding ‘the principle of minimal movement ‘ to go from one chord to the next by taking advantage of the inversion of the next chord that requires the least movement of your right hand primarily, is one of the secrets to comping along without effort. Those movements become 2nd nature. This is true for both keyboards and guitars.
What is your motivation for striving for this?
For me, I got hooked on all the add2 and sus4 chords I heard in Journey songs when Cain joined the band.
Once I could sing while comping the chords, girls would come and sit next to me on the piano bench. No greater motivator than that to a sophomore in high school. Then they would sing along as well.
Learning guitar was a different motivation for me. I’m glad I learned chord theory from my piano teacher; as it eased transition to doing the same on guitar.
Work on those inversions for simple I IV V sequences first until you can do it in all keys, and starting the sequence from all of the inversions
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I had not really come across the I, IV, V methods until fairly recently. We learnt by knowing your open chords then barring them up the fret board. We knew heaps of “patterns” and normally someone would simply call out a song, the key, then into we went. Sitting in with a number of different groups soon had you learning, rarely did we have chord sheets or the like. If there was something you didn’t know you’d sit back a bit, but it didn’t take long and you’d have it.
In later years I became involved in a number of country music clubs usually playing lead but lead players also play rhythm. Usually folk showed up with some sort of chord sheets but rarely were they correct and often the person singing would miss the key. Once again one soon learnt how tunes hung together.
How do you learn? Get involved with a group of interested folk and jump in, you’ll soon find your feet.
Just some experiences
Tony
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I've heard it all before. Ear training is boring. Scales are boring. Music theory is boring. Learning to read music is boring. etc. etc. etc.
Remember when you were young and spelling cat C - A - T was an accomplishment and then larger words?
Music is like that. It's slow going at first, but the more you learn and the more experience you have, the better you will get at it.
It's a matter of jut putting the time in, and getting the "this is boring" thing out of your mind. IMHO If you fight it, it's only going to get harder.
Insights and incites by Notes
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I've heard it all before. Ear training is boring. Scales are boring. Music theory is boring. Learning to read music is boring. etc. etc. etc.
Remember when you were young and spelling cat C - A - T was an accomplishment and then larger words?
Music is like that. It's slow going at first, but the more you learn and the more experience you have, the better you will get at it.
It's a matter of jut putting the time in, and getting the "this is boring" thing out of your mind. IMHO If you fight it, it's only going to get harder.
Insights and incites by Notes Excellent advice here. To add to it if you fight it you could develop bad techniques. They would become harder to correct then learning it correctly the first time. Baby steps man, baby steps.
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
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Good honest discussion, I think you can become a good enough guitarist with average intelligence and a good deal of practice.
I don't consider myself to have any real musical talent, to be honest its not a thing you hear musicians say often "hey I don't have much natural musical talent, its just practice that got me where I am" Maybe they feel its a sign of weakness to say that.
That's not to say there aren't some really gifted musicians around, but from the time I went to guitar lessons I have never met many, just people who practice a lot on their instrument.
Probably I am not mixing with the right people either!
As regards not knowing chord changes don't worry too much about it (plenty of chord charts around) from my limited musical theory, the melody note is usually in the chord on the down beat.
Rather a simplistic way to look at it I know, and doesn't apply all the time.
Wish I had a better ear too, but best way is to try and enjoy what you play.
Try Riffstation free by the way, nice way to learn a song.
Last edited by musiclover; 01/21/19 10:19 AM.
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I learned a lot of this about 40 years ago. It's not really that hard if you are willing to put in the time. Once you figure out what is happening, repetition will teach you to do it well.
As for playing without analyzing, I'm not sure that's possible. What many of us do is play enough (like Notes and Noel said) that we hear changes we have played in different songs. Your mind is analyzing but you don't realize it. Kind of like driving after a few years.
Two things helped me a lot. The first was learning scale degrees. The second was sight singing, a form of ear training. If you can find some songs that use a few common intervals, you can do a lot. Try 1 to 2, 1 to 3, 1-3-5, 1 to 4, 1 to 5. For example, 1-3-5 is the first three notes of Johnny B. Good. 1 to 4 is Here Comes the Bride. Even though these are not chords, this knowledge can help you figure out chords.
There is a lot of good advice above. Hope you find something that works for you.
2b
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Simple thing. Take theory lessons. No shortcuts to the kind of learning you want to do. To do this you really need some theory so you know what a 4th and a 5th are.
There are truly no shortcuts in music. You can watch mechanics build engines your whole life but if you don't know a piston from a pushrod, you can't build one. You can apply that logic to any field you like. Cooking, ice skating, creative writing.... You can watch Bobby Flay cook all you want but if you don't know cooking basics like mise en place, blanch and parboil, you can't cook. You can't learn to skate by watching people skate if you don't know about edges and flats. You couldn't do heart surgery if you don't know auricle, ventricle and aorta.
I have watched person after person in my life try to sneak into the music circus by crawling under the tent. Buy a ticket. The metaphor being "put in the work". Take lessons to learn basic theory. 1-4-5 is a nickname. The terms are root (or tonic), subdominant and dominant. WHY they are called that is what will help you.
Here's lesson one.
Every major scale is created with moves of whole step, whole step, half step, whole step, whole step, whole step, half step. Every note on that scale has a name.
Tonic
Supertonic
Mediant
Subdominant
Dominant
Submediant
Leading note
Tonic
Do you need to know that to strum chords around the campfire? Nope. Do you need that to follow along in a session where the leader holds up 4 fingers to signify a change to the 4th note on the scale, the subdominant chord? Yep.
If you are in E, and you see a "4", you know that is an A (from your theory of scales) but is it a Ab, an A, or an A#? You know from knowing scale structure that the 4th note on a major scale is a while, whole, half, whole step from the root, which makes it A natural. Not sharped, not flatted. That's what "natural" means.
Now that glosses over the fact that if you don't know what half and whole steps are, it's deer in the headlights time.
Go to your local community college and take a music 101 class. In that 9 weeks you will learn scales, chord structures and the circle of 5ths. That will take you a LONG way.
But once again, there are no shortcuts, and none of us can learn or practice for you. If you want it, put in the time and effort. April will mark 63 years since I started lessons, and THIS stuff is what I learned first, at 2 months less than age 5. If a kid under 5 can learn it, you can too.
Do you want it?
Last edited by eddie1261; 01/21/19 03:22 PM.
I am using the new 1040XTRAEZ form this year. It has just 2 lines.
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2. Send it to us.
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"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
Convenient Ways to Listen to Band-in-a-Box® Songs Created by Program Users!
The User Showcase Forum is an excellent place to share your Band-in-a-Box® songs and listen to songs other program users are creating!
There are other places you can listen to these songs too! Visit our User Showcase page to sort by genre, artist (forum name), song title, and date - each listing will direct you to the forum post for that song.
If you'd rather listen to these songs in one place, head to our Band-in-a-Box® Radio, where you'll have the option to select the genre playlist for your listening pleasure. This page has SoundCloud built in, so it won't redirect you. We've also added the link to the Artists SoundCloud page here, and a link to their forum post.
We hope you find some inspiration from this amazing collection of User Showcase Songs!
Congratulations to the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
We've just announced the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
There are 45 winners, each receiving a Band-in-a-Box 2024 UltraPAK! Read the official announcement to see if you've won.
Our User Showcase Forum receives more than 50 posts per day, with people sharing their Band-in-a-Box songs and providing feedback for other songs posted.
Thank you to everyone who has contributed!
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Forums66
Topics81,620
Posts735,182
Members38,517
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Most Online2,537
Jan 19th, 2020
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