PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Off-Topic How many of you can take a song you've heard before - with really simple chords in 1 or 2 keys - and

There is a thing called relative pitch. It's what pitch you hum without a reference. Watch a barbershop quartet, choir or about any group of people singing acapella (without instrumentation). They start with one person blowing a pitch pipe or humming so everyone else can hear a pitch to adjust their pitch against.

Step 1: Listen to music and hum along with the music whether you know the song or not. Is you first note higher or lower in pitch than the song? Your hum will adjust to the song.

Step 2: Play with other musicians. Watch their feet or their heads. Most musicians nod their head or pat a foot to help keep time. Play along with whatever song is played as close to the beat as you can.

Step 3: Whatever instrument you play strive to play your first note as quick as you can after the song starts. But don't play it LOUD, instead play it just loud enough that you can hear it over the music. If you're playing a guitar or keyboard or any other instrument that can play chords play just one note, not a chord. It doesn't matter what key everyone else is playing in. Your listening to discover if your first note is higher or lower in pitch relative to the song, just like when you listen to music and are humming. The difference is you're using your instrument to make a sound instead of you humming. Then run through (up to an octave) notes until your instrument plays the same root not whatever chord the song is at.

That's how most people I know learn to play music by ear. In the beginning you can't care as much about what the chords are. You develop relative pitch and a sense of timing first.

By the way, Cat Stevens does not create beginning music in my opinion. I would start with campfire songs, seasonal songs or other songs that have two and three chords you might be familiar with. Has Cat Stevens even published any two or three chord songs?

Joe. I think that when someone says “I don’t have the talent” to do something then that is what I call a “thought distortion”. It is not actually true.

I would say join up with www.musical-u.com
They will teach you how to do this. Step by step.

I just re-read Joe's original post and I somehow missed the very first few words:

"play it without analyzing it "

If you haven't heard the song before, and know it pretty well - playing it without analyzing it is, well, pretty impossible.

Most musicians I know that are used to playing in bands that do covers, can't help themselves but analyze every single song they hear, and for darn sure, are analyzing songs they are expected to play - whether by themselves or with a band.

I know I do.

I don't have to think about how to play certain chords on keys or guitar or patterns that just come to the fingers, but as for what is in the song; the changes, how many times through the b-section, etc., I'm always thinking about those things.

Some of that is down to the type of band I play in, and the fact that I play a different instrument from session to session. I play in a church worship band that does modern rock anthems, and depending on the need for the week, I'm either on bass, electric guitar, hammond, or piano/synth (sometimes I will do hammond and piano/synth in the same set).

It's a different 5 song set each and every week, and I play 2x per month. So it's not like a cover band that has a 50 song set list memorized. I need a lyric sheet and guide chords written out, with my notes on dynamics and voicings, patch selections for keys or electric guitar, when to lay out, etc.

I read that you want to learn how to move between chords without thinking. Let's start with probably the easiest of the Cat Stevens songs, Peace Train. There's only 4 chords in that, and you can play them all open. The hardest one to grab is the F, but there's a cheating way if you can learn to just play the highest 4 strings. Moving between C Am and G is like butter for most guitarists after the right amount of practice. This involves practicing the moves. It's like rudiments on the snare drum - there's likely very few drummers that didn't put their time into rudiments, even on a practice pad. Coolest paradiddles? Neil Peart on roto toms, but you can bet he learned his paradiddles on a practice pad or snare.

Can you move with grace between C and G on guitar? If not, there's your starting point. Not the song. Sure, use the song as a place to play the chords, but the goal should be moving fluidly between C and G. Then add the Am in. Then the F. Forget about the little melody following bits on guitar. Get the main rhythm part down first. Find a teacher that can play it like you want to be able to play it.

Some people get it quicker than others. My younger son took guitar lessons from a couple different teachers that understood his desire to learn certain classic rock songs, and they taught him differently than I would have, but dang he learned quick and practiced for the joy of it at least 1/2 hour a day and many times much more than that.

Maybe this is rambling, but I have just a couple more questions:
1. Have you ever had a guitar teacher that you really appreciated - not because they were a virtuoso, but they 'got you' and showed you things in your lesson that absolutely progressed you a step up the staircase?

2. Have you ever practiced guitar so much that your fretting hand fingertips hurt and maybe bleed? And then you notice as you continue to push playing even with hurting fingertips, that you developed callouses?

If the answer to the first one is 'no', then I'm guessing the answer to #2 is probably also 'no'.

The callouses are also part of being able to move fluidly and without thinking hard about it.

You

Hi, Joe !


To your question I would say, I can,
at least as long as the melody is
known to me and is easy enough !
So, f.i. I am the guy in our band that
makes all the tabs to the guitar tunes
that we play - an example this version of
Apache I I´m playing lead guitar (the blue one)

https://vimeo.com/307360018/847f8143f7

I started way back then by learning
how to play rhytm guitar Chords). It was
my brother´s guitar but he was´nt
interested so I took it over.

I think it is quite essential
to learn how to play an instrument
and an instrument that plays chords
not only a string of tones (notes)

That way, you´ll get the feel for
the music and can start and write
your own !:))

Cheers
Dani

Talent is something that cannot be taught. It's also very nebulous and subjective.

Music theory and technique is something that can be taught.

Most people cannot develop their inborn talent to it's full potential without putting the time in to learn theory and technique.

When I worked in the cruise ship in the duo lounge, I met and heard a lot of musicians in the orchestra. Most of them came out of music school and where playing their first paying gigs.

I heard players who could play well, but played what I hear as empty notes. Good technicians but without what I consider talent. I heard other players with the same schooling that were musical monsters. Tons of what I call talent. But the majority were good players, in between the extremes.

If you do it enough, you find out if you are good enough. But education, repetition and experience are all great teachers, learn from all of them.

I remember the first time I learned a song by ear. It was a sax break in a popular rock song of my big sisters era. I picked out each note, one at a time, it took a long time. Fast forward many decades later and I can play along with most melodies and the ever diminishing sax solos without that struggle. On the guitar, most simple songs are easy to figure out the changes. In both cases, it's a matter of I've done so many similar things, that I know where to go next. Learning theory helps a lot with this because understanding the 'rules' lets know know where the logical next steps are.

I learned theory and technique in school, I learned further 'non-classical' technique from other musicians, and playing music daily including gigging for a living gave me the repetition and experience.

I was on the road with an organ player. He started on piano when he was very young, and at the time B3 organs were the rock instrument of choice. You could give him a melody, and not only could he come up with chords on the spot, but he could come up with a few very different sounding chord accompaniments.

He also played pipe organ in a church, and I saw where he got that experience. The music books he played from had nothing but melodies in them. Some former organists penciled in chords, other organists put in additional chords, and some song had no chords penciled in. It was music theory, experience, and repetition at this particular skill.

As said in many posts, there is no short cut, you have to put in the time and effort, but the rewards are great. Celebrate each accomplishment. It's something you couldn't do before.

And remember, music is not a destination, it's a journey. We can live to be 120, play music every day, and there will still be something we could learn if only we could live to 121, or 122, or 130 and so on. Take the scenic route and enjoy the ride.

Insights and incites by Notes

Notes, I want to give you about a +17 for that post, because +1 isn't enough plusses.





I called my first teacher every name in the book for making me learn all that "boring" stuff when all I wanted to do was sit down at the piano and put on lavish shows like Liberace. As if lesson one led to what Liberace was.... When that teacher died, I went to the funeral home to thank him for making me learn all that "boring" stuff. (Of course he didn't know I was there...)

I honestly DO believe that most people can learn to play well enough to play, just play, not write, but rote and muscle memory. If you don't have the innate talent base, it will take you much longer and many more repetitions to learn it, but eventually you will learn "Okay my fingers need to go here for that chord, whatever it's called." Ear players can play on par with anybody. The rift comes when an ear player comes to a session and I sit a chart down in front of him and he asks "What are these little dots?" In that situation, I just play him what I want him to play, and then in 10 minutes he plays it, usually far better than I would have. Ear players can compose well too, they just can't transcribe, but there are people who will do that for more than the "slight nominal fee" that WC Fields used to talk about.

However, as Notes said, as I said, as many have said, you can get to the core of the matter much quicker if you invest in some basic basics classes. Again, community college. Take Music 101. Maybe even go back for Music 102. DO NOT go to a music store where the local whiz guitar player claims to be a teacher. He will teach you songs. Learning songs is not "music".

Notes, what you called talent I call heart. If you can't play from the heart you shouldn't be playing. One can have all the theory down and still sound, as you said, like empty notes. They were not playing from the heart.

Back in the late 60's I got a call from a wedding band. Why? Because at that time I was one of the few guitarist in my area that could read, play by ear and improvise. I add taken a couple of college theory courses and they were a tremendous help. I stayed playing in wedding bands until I retired from gigging.

As you and many others have said there are no shortcuts.

Somewhere in there fits the story of one of the biggest letdowns of my life. (No, not my 3rd marriage. That was HER letdown.)

Another sax player and I bought tickets to see Kenny G in a theater in the round we used to have here in Cleveland. We were pumped to have 4th row tickets. The opening act was a local jazz group that did Weather Report covers about about 30% their own stuff. So they do their thing, then Kenny and his hair came out. Did his first song. Did his second. Did his third. In the 4th song, I looked at my pal and said "This is the 4th song and he is already repeating licks." And my pal said "You heard that too? For my money I say we finish this song and go."

And we did.

When we were walking to our cars, I looked at him and said "That is the whitest dude in America." and he knew exactly what I meant. I heard a lot of notes, a lot of GREAT fingering, a LOT of amazing technique. What I didn't hear was feel. Soul. Heart. Here was this pretty boy playing THE most expressive instrument out there and it was just a wash of gray notes. When a player is repeating licks in the 4th song, it's time to go. And I have never listened to him on purpose again. From time to time I get some Kenny G poisoning at the grocery store, but I have never bought one of his CDs and won't. Technician. I much prefer David Sanborn.

As good as Lee Ritenour is, I find him in the same "technician" class too. Lots of speed. Lots of technique. No heart. No soul. I can hear speed from Kirk Hammett if I ever listened to Metalica. (I don't.) Alan Holdsworth now, he has the technical chops but he plays with feel. Pat Matheny too. I liked Kenny G when he was still Kenny Gorelick playing with Jeff Lorber. Ritenour and Dave Grusin together were special, but what I took from them was more their composition.

Recurring theme.

Put in the time. No shortcuts.

Thanks again everybody - all great points - got some new ideas (and old ones that I 'forgot') to get me inspired again. Thanks for taking the time to answer in such detail. All your comments were really helpful - gonna bookmark this one : )

I didn't take the time to read all the former replies.... but some of them looked to be quite in-depth.

So, yes, I can do pretty much what you spoke about. Play a song I've never heard before the first time through without any major problems. I once was invited to set in with a band doing a gig... to "jam" as they put it. I had never heard many of the songs before. At the end of the gig second night, I was hired into the band as the lead guitarist and all around guitarhacker. I've been able to hear the changes coming in a song ever since I was a young child learning to play the piano. This made me pretty popular at church events like picnics and other such places, with my guitar.

Of course, knowing some theory is a valuable asset (thank God for the piano lessons) but probably more so is the natural, innate feel, that this is where the song is going next. In the band example above, the bass player would tell me, for example, that after the chorus there was a "certain different chord" and I'd be waiting for that chord. Not all country is 1-4-5 ya know....

The more fun trick, and I'm sure a lot of folks..... well, maybe at least a few here, can listen to a song you've never heard before and simply by listening to the color and texture of the chords, determine the exact key of the song and all the chords in it. To kick it to a higher level.... yep, that sounds like he's in D with a capo on the 3rd fret. In a different band, that was actually a sort of game we would play. Name that key.

Playing songs easily and correctly without much prior knowledge. Mostly I think this is a skill that can be learned. It comes from doing it over and over on all sorts of songs and styles. As a kid, when I first took up the guitar, I can't tell you the hundreds of hours I spent in my bedroom playing along with the radio. Find the key in the first few chords.... OK now you know what the 1-4-5 chords are now..... play. Pop music 60's top 40...what a variety of music to learn on.

Learning the chords, no matter if its the piano or the guitar..... the ability to instantly place all your fingers on the correct notes with 100% accuracy is crucial to playing in this manner, or any other manner for that matter. I went from forming chords to hitting chords in a matter of days. I decided that I needed to be able to jump straight to the chord and threw caution to the wind and just did it. The first few times were rough, but in a short time, I was amazing myself and the rest, as they say, was history. Now... if I need to learn a new chord... and yes, with well over 5000 potential chords on a guitar neck, I still need to learn new ones from time to time, I have the muscle memory to quickly form and hit those chords. A few tries and it's a done deal.

I hope this kind of answers the questions you were asking. Just do it.

EDIT: Now... if you really want to have fun.... go play with a church orchestra. The one I was in for a time, they called it a band but it was really an orchestra. Horns, reeds, strings.... and many of those instruments were the Bb or Eb variety. For some reason, they don't know how to play in any sort of a sane key like C... or G.... or E and asking them to play by ear????? forget that. They prefer Bb, Eb, Ab, and so on. The sheet music.... yep, they used sheet music for everything, was in those keys and they even put the guitar chord chart at the top of the staff. It totally blew the minds of the other guitar players ( there were several who rotated in and out depending on their teen church band schedule)when they would slap on a capo to play the song.... write out the "real chords" to use, and I would simply play the chords as written on the sheet music. It's all part of being a guitar player.

Know what's funny there, Herb? What you describe there as "innate feel" IS knowing theory. Knowing the if you are in C the logical next chords will be major or minor depending on what relative step of the scale the are on. Where normally in C, a D, E or A would likely be minor and an F or G would likely be major. That IS knowing theory. Of course there will be songs that move from root to 2 major or 3 major, but in general, 2 or 3 would be minor. So without "knowing theory" but "PLAYING theory" the same thing is accomplished. If you Google "famous musician who can't read music", you will be surprised.

Does knowing theory and reading HELP? You bet. Is it a must have? Nope. If your ear is that good, nope. Anybody can figure out a song. Eventually. But it may take 4 times longer if you have to touch every fret or every key. For me, if I hear a song, I know what key it is in after one bar, but I have perfect pitch. (Well, NEAR perfect as I age...) Not everybody has that. BUT, as you stay at it, you will develop a sense for pitch.

Joe, the key question is, how serious are you about this? Most ask about it, sound like they get it and a year later, they're back here in the forums asking the same questions. Others have given you great advice with some detailed info to learn. No need for me to add to that, I'll write in broader strokes.

I don't know if you travel much but can you travel to Mexico for vacation and get by without knowing a word of Spanish? Sure, but you'll be fumbling around a lot and using Google Translate on your phone.

Music is a language both written and spoken no different than any other languague. Can't speak a lick of music? You'll never get beyond where you're at now. Yes, we all can point to monster players we've heard about over the years who can't read or understand theory. Forget those people. they're what's been referred to as "Transcendental Geniuses". Joey DeFrancisco is merely the latest one I heard about a few years ago. Probably the best jazz organist of this era and he can't read a note. But wait, there's more! That's not the full story. His father is Papa John DeFrancisco. A killer player in his own right. He was bringing Joey into clubs and having him sit in when he was 10-12 years old. Most of these monsters we've heard of who can't read have similar backgrounds. If you've grown up in the business since you could walk well, that's a bit of an advantage dontcha think? So ignore those people, using them as an example of why you don't need to study doesn't apply to you.

Herb, you said a very important thing. You did take lessons as a child. That's where you got your ability to hear this stuff, you may not belive that now but I think it's true. It all started there. It's like me. I took accordian lessons for about 4 years as a child and played in a 36 piece accordian orchestra. We won first place in the Western States Accordian Festival on Catalina Island in 1957 and again in 58. We did Toccata and Fugue in Dm and Victory At Sea. I played 2nd Trombone and had to transpose the parts to concert pitch in my head.

When I got to high school about the most uncool thing you could be was an accordian player so I quit and didn't play a note until I was in the Air Force in Japan in 1964. I sat at a piano in the Airman's Club and played Baby Elephant Walk from a Mancini book that was laying there. It was tricky because I hadn't looked at any music since I was 13 but I managed and a guy came up and asked if I wanted to play in his band and that's how it started with me. You can't fake stuff like that, I learned basic reading and some theory as a kid and it sticks with you.

One more story that illustrates the points others have made here. About 10-12 years ago I get a call from a very good sax player friend who has an impressive resume as a session player in Philly in the 60's. His name is Lucky Wright, maybe you knew him Notes. He asked if I could be a rehearsal pianist in his big band because their guy was in the hosiptal. I said I can't read big band charts, those things are a bear. He said don't worry about it, you know chords, voicings and have a good rhythmic feel, you'll do fine. So I showed up and he was right. It's true I missed a lot of the written in piano licks and trying to figure out 1st/2nd endings and jumping to a coda in a 7 page chart was impossible for me but as far as the overall songs, it was basically the same stuff I've played for years so no problem, when I got lost I faked it ok because I know song structure and have ears. And I did recognize some of those tunes and remembered some of those piano licks and faked them too, haha. Everybody was happy, I did several rehearsals until their guy recovered and returned. That stint got me a regular paying gig in another big band and I still work with them to this day. Those charts are still very tough to read but I pretty much know all that stuff now so it's no big deal. So, in addition to being a classic rock, funk, country, fusion, jazz player, I'm also a big band pianist. Who knew?

Like everybody elae has said that's simply experience backed up by theory.

To be blunt, you have to learn what you have to learn Joe or keep being an unfulfilled wannabe who thinks he should be more than that. I know that sounds a little harsh but since I've been accused before of being as subtle as a train wreck, there it is. It's no doubt harder when you're older. As a kid you're told to shut up and do as your told or face the consequences. As an older adult you have to really want it and motivate yourself.

Soooo...

Bob

I think the most important thing is to learn music theory.

Early on, I found it pretty easy to figure songs out. After I learned basic music theory, I figured out why it was so easy.

Don't let anyone tell you that you need to master reading music in order to understand music theory. That's total and complete bullsh*it!

There's only 12 notes, a few octaves based on your instrument, and scales, chords and arpeggios.

What you can hear with your ears and execute with your hands is what's important. Not what's written on a page.

The one extra benefit of having a basic understanding of theory is that you can converse with another musician and understand what they are saying.

If you can understand someone saying "It's in E, and just 1, 4, 5 for the most part", and know what that means for the song
Then you understand at least *some* theory.
The more you know the better you can converse (and thus learn), as with any language, like the other Bob mentioned.

It ain't necessary to have this in order to play well, but it sure makes the 'Learning' part of it all a lot easier, which was your original question I thought.

Can well remember the time when I hadn't a clue what a chord was, first guitar tutor I bought was useless, and then moving on to the mystery as to why we change to certain chords throughout a song.

Now since I got that sorted out, I just need to figure out the right chords to play.

Ultimate guitar and other sites are my friends here, but sometimes even chords are different for same songs, just goes to prove the old saying that guitarists are usually very much self-taught musicians, and what one guitarist hears is maybe different from the next.

Herb,

" Now... if you really want to have fun.... go play with a church orchestra. The one I was in for a time, they called it a band but it was really an orchestra. Horns, reeds, strings.... and many of those instruments were the Bb or Eb variety. For some reason, they don't know how to play in any sort of a sane key like C... or G.... or E and asking them to play by ear????? forget that. They prefer Bb, Eb, Ab, and so on. The sheet music.... yep, they used sheet music for everything, was in those keys and they even put the guitar chord chart at the top of the staff. It totally blew the minds of the other guitar players ( there were several who rotated in and out depending on their teen church band schedule)when they would slap on a capo to play the song.... write out the "real chords" to use, and I would simply play the chords as written on the sheet music. It's all part of being a guitar player. "

Boom - I had to do that for years; except I was an unabashed capo user. And yes, using a capo is perfectly fine for guitar playing, particularly when the original song was composed on guitar, in guitar keys, and the horn player key voicings sound just plain wrong. Music theory comes in handy with that. That was the case with most of the songs we played - they were written by guitar players; played and recorded in modern rock band arrangements in perfectly reasonable keys, then when the publishing house got hold of them, they 'horned them up'. The songs, with the piano player using all 10 fingers, a raft of trumpet players, 1 sax, 1 trombone, one clarinet, electric guitar, acoustic guitar, electric bass and V-drums; they almost all ended up sounding terrible, except for the songs we would rehearse for months for the Easter musical - then we could make them sound passable.

There is no shame in capo use, particularly to match voicing of known recordings but with key changes in play from the original, or when there's evidence the original was capo'ed to begin with.

There are musicians who never learned music theory or to read music, agreed.

However IMO, (1) they are doing it the hard way and (2) if they did learn music theory they would have learned quicker and (3) they would even be better than they are today.

If a huge number of people decided to be doctors without any training, a few would end up becoming good doctors, most would fail, and all would lose patients along the way.

The exceptions do not disprove the rule.

Insights and incites by Notes

Yep, I never intended to make it sound like using a capo was bad or that the person who did so was "less" of a guitarist.

My thoughts on capos are similar. They have a purpose. Yeah they can be used to make songs easier to play on the guitar, and I can't count the times I have done that, but my main use for a capo is to get a totally different sonic feel and tone from the guitar.

As regards reading music there is probably those of us who know the basic notes on the staff or stave and use a recording to help us along, and those who can truly read, and play a perfect copy of a complex song, without having heard it before, or having any recording to hand.

Wonder how many are in last category?

That drew a laugh from me because I think I am the only person in the world who can't use a capo. My brain is so locked into the fret markers, chord structure based on those fret markers and sight reading that I can't make myself think "This is just like playing it in C. Transpose everything the right amount of steps needed and play it like you are playing in C." But my eyes then tell my brain "Nay. Nay. This is in E, and in E that minor 6th is a C# minor, and we know how to play an E# minor, right? Now put your barre on that 4th fret and play it like you know how."

Which is to say that with a capo I have to think too much about "What chord is this relevant to C?" and when you have to think rather than just play by instinct it's pretty much a mess. I have tried many times and without charting it out in "normal" (written) key and then taking another sheet of staff paper and transposing it, I just can't use a capo. I DO have something coming up that has a persistent, repeating part, and to capo the 3rd fret is the only way to play it where open strings can resonate. (The part calls for G C G D (held), and if I capo on 3 I can play a fingered 3rd and 4th string and an open 1st and 2nd string and get what I need.)