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There has been a lot of discussion on here about the inability to read music, and the inference that one's inability to do so was a crippling aspect in writing, performing, or singing music. The following is a only a partial list of those who were thus "crippled". Musicians/ Composers who couldn't read music. Elvis Presley The Beatles Jimi Hendrix Eric Clapton Tony Iommi Michael Jackson Eddie Van Halen Tommy Emanuel Stevie Ray Vaughan Jimmy Page Frank Sinatra, Sylvia Fine Barbra Streisand Paul Simon Harry Lillis 'Bing'Crosby, Jr. Miles Davis Irving Berlin Chet Baker Roland Kirk Django Reinhardt Art Tatum Wes Montgomery Buddy Rich Joe Pass Tom Petty Lindsey Buckingham Tom Morello Mike Campbell Stevie Wonder B.B. King Of course, this is only a partial list.  Regards, Bob
Last edited by 90 dB; 01/25/19 05:10 AM.
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Paul Simona - Up dislektics I guess Ray Charles couldn't either.
Chris
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Hi
Don’t know about that Sinbad.
I knew a blind man that played piano and I seem to recall that he had some Braille music scores / lessons
Mike
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Miles Davis should not be on that list.
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Yeah, he went to Julliard I think. Saw an interview with him a while back after a Kind of Blue listening. But you can replace him with many many many more who didn’t read. I recently read that Bela Fleck arranged orchestral parts by humming or singing what he wanted to different players!
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I just finished reading "Skydog", the Duane Allman story. Interesting read, highly recommended for fans of the Allman Brothers.
Before he started the Allman brothers with Greg he was a top session player, played on tracks from Wilson Pickett, Aretha Franklin, Boz Scaggs, and many, many more.
He was self taught and couldn't read, but that didn't stop him getting all the session work he could handle.
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Miles Davis should not be on that list. He did attend Julliard for one semester, but hated it. So you're half right. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Juilliard_School_peopleRegards, Bob
Last edited by 90 dB; 01/25/19 04:19 AM.
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Impressive List, but I think if given the choice most people would opt to be able to be good sight readers, including me. I mean its not exactly a feather in your hat not to be able to read. Or maybe a person can delude themselves that they are in good company if they can't. 
Last edited by musiclover; 01/25/19 05:53 AM.
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There are always exceptions to the rule, and the exceptions do not disprove the rule.
For every famous musician who cannot read music, you will find hundreds who can. Plus if the learned to read music and music theory they would have gotten to their highest peak sooner and surpassed what they could do without those skills.
Plus your list is padded.
Irving Berlin could read music, but only in one key. He had a transposing piano so he could play in any key.
Ray Charles could read Braille music. I played with a blind person who could, he would have to pass his hand over the page, and what he passed his had over had to be committed to memory so he cold play both hands on the piano.
How about Frank Sinatra? Barbra Striesand? Bing Crosby? Bing Crosby? Michael Jackson? How many singers read music? (Not enough IMO).
Miles Davis could read, but could not sight-read (there is a difference) and I suppose others on the list might be the same way.
I always get amused at people who try to defend not reading music and/or not learning theory.
To balance your list, the entire semi-pro Space Coast Orchestra is much bigger than that list and they all can read.
The Atlantic Classical Orchestra is bigger than that list and they can read.
The local high school band has more members than that list and they all can read.
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"For every famous musician who cannot read music, you will find hundreds who can."
Depends on the genre.
I would guess that if you are talking about popular music, or blues music, or roots music in general, it would be for every famous musician who can read music, you will find hundreds who can't.
Last edited by BlueAttitude; 01/25/19 05:00 AM.
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This is definitely an interesting list. Thanks for sharing.
Cheers,
Ember
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"I always get amused at people who try to defend not reading music and/or not learning theory. " Well, I'm glad to bring some amusement into your life In actuality I don't defend them as IMO they need no defense and I'm sure they feel the same way. Our musical mentor, grammy nominated, whom we played and recorded with for many years couldn't read and the conversation never came up. I assuredly do not denigrate those millions who read, know theory and have richer lives for it nor would I laugh at those who feel pressured to defend not having chosen that path. I don't think it's a numbers game, i.e, how many can vs how many can't..particularly since we are talking only about those who are well known. As Black Hawk said "every man must choose his own path." Mine was to play in several bands with some great musicians (some of who read and knew a ton of theory) and have decades of fun w/o having the time or inclination or discipline to learn theory. But nary a regret! Cheers. Bud
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I think the discussion came from a post about hearing a song and playing the chords. Some of the replies, including mine, talked about playing experience and ear training. Those are not the same as reading music or sight reading (also different, as Bob said).
If you are going to play an instrument or sing complex music, it is much easier if you at least understand scale degrees.
One thing I have noticed is that some musicians who are great readers don't improvise well.
I don't think anyone said a musician is crippled by not being able to read. At the same time, more ideas and opportunities are open to you if you can.
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Paul Simona - Up dislektics I guess Ray Charles couldn't either. Copy/Paste error. Fixed.  Regards, Bob
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Impressive List, but I think if given the choice most people would opt to be able to be good sight readers, including me. I mean its not exactly a feather you in your hat not to be able to read. Or maybe a person can delude themselves that they are in good company if they can't. I think that list includes some pretty "good company", and I'm not a delusional person. Regards, Bob
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I knew SOMEBODY would Google that as if it makes a difference to the schlubs who want to play for the old folk "down to th' VF Dubya".
That list isn't even close to the discussion we are having here. There are what, 73 gajillion people in the USA who play music and you think listing 20 EXCEPTIONAL exceptions matters?
How about this scenario? Somebody hears you play in a club and says "I want this guy for my next session." Their people contact your people. Your people set you up with a time and date. You show up with your favorite guitar, sit at your stool, and they hand you music. And the session master counts you in. If you can't do that, learn how to sight read or you'll never get another session call.
That scenario isn't copy music or improvising 32 bars of blues solo. Pick whichever example from your list that you like, and in every case they had to HEAR somebody play something and then they learned it from there. In commercial session work, there is no song yet. You create it. You create that rhythm bed for the solo players to solo over. How many of those Wrecking Crew guys do you think couldn't read? (Um... the answer is "none".) Unless they were working for Brian Wilson who spent as long as 6 months on a song, they had to get it right NOW so they could wrap in an hour and get to the next session. But music wasn't their hobby or their 4 time a month side job. It was how they paid for mansions.
Only those who can't read will cast aspersions at those who do like the non readers here do. That is classic "denial by overcompensation" (like presenting Google's list as your evidence). "I can't do it. Thus it must not be important." Or, "I can't drive stick. So stick shift must be stupid." I love to be able to hand people charts that I wrote and they can read and say "Play this." And if they are good, 3 takes at most and they are done.
Also remember that solos are NOT laying in rhythm beds. You included BB King. His virtuosity was his tone and his lack of wordiness. Simple lines played with taste and tone. Have you noticed he couldn't play while he sang? What he did didn't call for reading.
Interesting from your Googled list is that there are several players on there that the world considered "the greatest" and I have absolutely no love for. Eddie Van Halen was all flash. Hammer-on solos seeing how many notes he could fit into his solo window but not a good rhythm player. And so many dumb kids thought he invented the right hand on the neck technique because they are young and know nothing about music. That's been around since flamenco guitar was born in what, the stone age? Jimmy Page? Loud, tasteless, solos that were uninspired and told no story, often with poor timing, mostly played with toys. ("Did you see that? He used a BOOOOOOOW!!!!") Likely why he was 3rd to the dance with The Yardbirds. Tom Petty? Seriously? If he was all that, why did he have a guitar player in his band? And he couldn't sing AT ALL. Miles Davis? The scat and bebop he did COULDN'T be written. Parker too. And Gillespie. When you have a guy like Parker who was proud to say he never played the same thing twice, what IS there for him to read?
What do you think of Dream Theater? Think THEY can read? Those Berklee educated guys? The DRUMMER reads music.
I will strongly and passionately disagree for the rest of my life with anybody who says reading does not matter. Again, most of you who say it doesn't, can't. I agree with the Notes Norton Notion that the people who reached skill plateaus without reading likely took much longer to get there than they would have had they been able to read.
Last edited by eddie1261; 01/25/19 05:43 AM. Reason: I misspelled "shift" Missed the F, so....
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From my experience I have noted that those hobbyists who could read music played music much later in life than those who could not read music. That is when ones music genre went out of style they put down their instruments.
I'd surmise that those pros who could not read music were surrounded but those that could read music, either with session musicians or for transcription of what they played for copyright publishing purposes. YMMV
But,as already noted, you do not need to read music to produce good music.
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
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I know we are talking about proper score sheet music here, but even at its basic level a guitar tab of an introduction to a song or solo, is very basic reading in itself.
And who hasn't been helped by that at times?
Think of the intro's or solo's you know now, that was helped by reading a guitar tab, and maybe would be impossible to learn by ear otherwise?
At the minute I have just got the hang of the Blue Danube on the guitar by printing out the music from biab, and listening to it.Though its a simple enough tune, I would never have got it note perfect by ear alone, ear is simply not good enough.
Saying all that....I will never be a proper reader, because I am not dedicated enough to learn, too old and poor eyesight ever to be a good reader, but having a listen and having the sheet music available slowly allows me to pick my way though it.
Last edited by musiclover; 01/25/19 06:31 AM.
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I just finished reading "Skydog", the Duane Allman story. Interesting read, highly recommended for fans of the Allman Brothers.
Before he started the Allman brothers with Greg he was a top session player, played on tracks from Wilson Pickett, Aretha Franklin, Boz Scaggs, and many, many more.
He was self taught and couldn't read, but that didn't stop him getting all the session work he could handle. Well, you'd better tell that to Eddie! Regards, Bob
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"Irving Berlin could read music, but only in one key. He had a transposing piano so he could play in any key." Once again, half-right. "The composer of countless beloved standards and show tunes including “Alexander’s Ragtime Band,” “White Christmas,” and “God Bless America” couldn’t read or write music." "Berlin boasted of his ignorance of music. As early as 1915 he said that since he knew little about the rules of songwriting, he was free to violate them, “and the result was [often] an original twist.” https://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2664/if-irving-berlin-could-not-read-or-write-music-how-did-he-compose/Regards, Bob
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"The composer of countless beloved standards and show tunes including “Alexander’s Ragtime Band,” “White Christmas,” and “God Bless America” couldn’t read or write music."
To achieve great results you need not only knowledge of the theory of music and have talents, but also the desire to work - every day and every hour
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I knew SOMEBODY would Google that as if it makes a difference to the schlubs who want to play for the old folk "down to th' VF Dubya".
That list isn't even close to the discussion we are having here. There are what, 73 gajillion people in the USA who play music and you think listing 20 EXCEPTIONAL exceptions matters?
How about this scenario? Somebody hears you play in a club and says "I want this guy for my next session." Their people contact your people. Your people set you up with a time and date. You show up with your favorite guitar, sit at your stool, and they hand you music. And the session master counts you in. If you can't do that, learn how to sight read or you'll never get another session call.
That scenario isn't copy music or improvising 32 bars of blues solo. Pick whichever example from your list that you like, and in every case they had to HEAR somebody play something and then they learned it from there. In commercial session work, there is no song yet. You create it. You create that rhythm bed for the solo players to solo over. How many of those Wrecking Crew guys do you think couldn't read? (Um... the answer is "none".) Unless they were working for Brian Wilson who spent as long as 6 months on a song, they had to get it right NOW so they could wrap in an hour and get to the next session. But music wasn't their hobby or their 4 time a month side job. It was how they paid for mansions.
Only those who can't read will cast aspersions at those who do like the non readers here do. That is classic "denial by overcompensation" (like presenting Google's list as your evidence). "I can't do it. Thus it must not be important." Or, "I can't drive stick. So stick shift must be stupid." I love to be able to hand people charts that I wrote and they can read and say "Play this." And if they are good, 3 takes at most and they are done.
Also remember that solos are NOT laying in rhythm beds. You included BB King. His virtuosity was his tone and his lack of wordiness. Simple lines played with taste and tone. Have you noticed he couldn't play while he sang? What he did didn't call for reading.
Interesting from your Googled list is that there are several players on there that the world considered "the greatest" and I have absolutely no love for. Eddie Van Halen was all flash. Hammer-on solos seeing how many notes he could fit into his solo window but not a good rhythm player. And so many dumb kids thought he invented the right hand on the neck technique because they are young and know nothing about music. That's been around since flamenco guitar was born in what, the stone age? Jimmy Page? Loud, tasteless, solos that were uninspired and told no story, often with poor timing, mostly played with toys. ("Did you see that? He used a BOOOOOOOW!!!!") Likely why he was 3rd to the dance with The Yardbirds. Tom Petty? Seriously? If he was all that, why did he have a guitar player in his band? And he couldn't sing AT ALL. Miles Davis? The scat and bebop he did COULDN'T be written. Parker too. And Gillespie. When you have a guy like Parker who was proud to say he never played the same thing twice, what IS there for him to read?
What do you think of Dream Theater? Think THEY can read? Those Berklee educated guys? The DRUMMER reads music.
I will strongly and passionately disagree for the rest of my life with anybody who says reading does not matter. Again, most of you who say it doesn't, can't. I agree with the Notes Norton Notion that the people who reached skill plateaus without reading likely took much longer to get there than they would have had they been able to read. Wow. You might want to edit your signature line, man.
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"Berlin boasted of his ignorance of music. As early as 1915 he said that since he knew little about the rules of songwriting, he was free to violate them, “and the result was [often] an original twist.”
Could well be true, I have read nothing about the man, but at the same time I wouldn't be surprised if the above is incorrect for the simple reason that some people like an air of mystery about themselves, and admitting or pretending to know nothing about a subject (that you come across as great at) only adds to the esteem that people hold you in.
People do the same nowadays, so probably no different then.
Great discussion though.
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All musicians are free to approach things as they like, but I hope a list like this does not discourage anyone from learning music theory if they have the opportunity. It can only make you better.
I’ve given work to over a hundred regional musicians. I can’t hire you unless you can read music well.
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All musicians are free to approach things as they like, but I hope a list like this does not discourage anyone from learning music theory if they have the opportunity. It can only make you better.
I’ve given work to over a hundred regional musicians. I can’t hire you unless you can read music well. That was not my intention. I just got fed up with all the snobbery on a site dedicated to typing in chords and "making" music. I do disagree with it necessarily making you "better". We wouldn't have the Blues if playing it required knowing theory. Regards, Bob
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We wouldn't have the Blues if playing it required knowing theory. You are such a tool. Blues is one style of what, 100? Usually blues is found to be played by a bunch of people who only know 3 chords. Try to sit down and play a jazz chart you have never seen or heard before without being able to read. Go play your 12 bar blues for nothing on jam night and stay out of conversations that have to do with intellect. You don't belong in them. Just because you can't read don't put us who can down for having actually STUDIED music rather than just a-pickin' along.
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Why disparage a rich American original genre (and those who love and play it) that has such deep roots in our music history? What’s the upside of that? Who would suggest that jazz would exist w/o it’s progenitor the blues?
I just don’t get it — yeah, yeah, I know, I’m bereft of intellect...
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There is no doubt the ability to read is a great thing. The ability to feel is also a great advantage. IMHO there are times when the ability to read outweighs the ability to feel playing in a military type band or a symphony orchestra one could probably get by with little feel but to read is important. Playing country music reading is probably not that important but the ability to feel and understand is. Similar to blues to be able to read dots and play like a machine puts a dampener of the music.
I lived in a town that had a music training facility for army musicians. They could all read dots really well. However few of them were ever asked to play in the local club type bands because read is what they did, not feel. I must say however those that did play in local bands were by and large excellent musos.
To have someone play blues, rock or country with feeling is what it is about. I would think with jazz it would depend on the band but once again I believe feeling is paramount.
People that can both feel and read with a great sense of loyalty would be the most useful but they are not that easy to find.
My thoughts I may be wrong but it’s how I see it.
Tony
Last edited by Teunis; 01/25/19 02:16 PM.
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There is more than one right way to make music.
Plus there are many different skills needed to make music. Improvising, reading, intonation, phrasing, ornamentation, dynamics, innovation, tone, expression, and so many more.
Some people can do very well without knowing all the skills but without all the skills they are limited in some way.
Not reading music is a little like not reading your native language (in my case English).
One can be a decent cook without ever reading a recipe. But without being able to read a cook book, if someone told you they wanted Veal Oscar or Shrimp Scampi, and that cook may have eaten those dishes in a restaurant, it'll take him/her a lot of failed tries and wasted food to get them to taste right. With a recipe it's very possible to get it right the first time.
I'll cite an example I wrote in a corresponding thread.
We had a request to learn "Just Another Day In Paradise" by Bertie Higgins. It wasn't a big hit, and so finding the music was almost impossible. I prefer to have the right chords and then substitute when and if I want to.
The chords aren't difficult at all, and I had what I thought were the right ones but I questioned a couple that worked, but didn't sound quite right.
So I posted on a forum or two asking if anybody knew the correct chords. About a dozen people generously used their ears and took the time to figure out the chords, and I ended up with a dozen similar but different versions of the chords.
I found a used copy on eBay, bought it, and found we were all wrong. Nobody figured these simple chords out right.
In addition the music had the background song-specific licks written in notation, and that saved me a lot of time figuring them out. I changed them to steel drum, changed the feel a little to make it more lively for live performance.
The guy who requested it, a regular customer at a club we played in, liked it, appreciated it, and told us our arrangement was even better than the record.
And I've thought about it a bit since I posted that. Every person who gave me the chords they heard missed a few, and then didn't all miss the same ones. Even a person who I know has absolute pitch (aka perfect pitch) missed a couple.
Also, when I was on the road, I was in a band where everybody, including the drummer read music (the drummer also played marimba and other melodic percussion instruments).
We toured the country, warmed up in concert for famous bands, and were courted by Motown to be the first choice for what eventually became the group Rare Earth. The talks broke down over money, but there was a lot of sheet music, much of it hand written floating around Motown studios. The horn and string parts were played by members of the Detroit Symphony simply because they could read music. Some of what we now call "The Funk Brothers" had jazz gigs outside the studio and could definitely read.
I heard an interview with Paul McCartney on the radio when he was trying to make 'classical' albums like "Standing Stones". He said he wished he could read music, and his 'classical' albums show is love for listening to classics, but his inability to have the skills to write it, even with help.
And George Martin knew how to read, arrange, and had good theory chops. Listen to the "Let It Be" album, produced by another fine producer "Phil Spector" and you can immediately see what George did with the Beatles Songs. He should be listed as a co-writer IMO.
Lynyrd Skynyrd may or may not have been able to read music, but The Swampers who cut much of their music you hear on record certainly did.
The Wrecking crew was mentioned earlier. You can't count the non-reading musicians that were replaced on record by the reading Wrecking Crew, along with Mussel Shoals and other top studios.
When we had an active recording studio in town (before desktop forced it out of business), I was a first call sax player. the most familiar guitar playing regulars all read music.
It's a good skill, and is actually easier than reading English once you get it.
Oh, it's OK not to be able to read music, but it's much better if you can. You might be in good company if you can't, but you'll be in better company if you can.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
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"We had a request to learn "Just Another Day In Paradise" by Bertie Higgins. It wasn't a big hit, and so finding the music was almost impossible. I prefer to have the right chords and then substitute when and if I want to. The chords aren't difficult at all, and I had what I thought were the right ones but I questioned a couple that worked, but didn't sound quite right." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40613SHHW2cSeriously? You crack me up, Bob. Regards, Bob
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Wow. You might want to edit your signature line, man. Eddie only reads music. Not his signature line.
Keith
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We wouldn't have the Blues if playing it required knowing theory. You are such a tool. Blues is one style of what, 100? Usually blues is found to be played by a bunch of people who only know 3 chords. Try to sit down and play a jazz chart you have never seen or heard before without being able to read. Go play your 12 bar blues for nothing on jam night and stay out of conversations that have to do with intellect. You don't belong in them. Just because you can't read don't put us who can down for having actually STUDIED music rather than just a-pickin' along. Actually, since my stroke paralyzed my right side I can't play guitar anymore. I explained that to you a year ago in a PM, when you had complimented me on my playing and wanted me to do some tracks for you. Remember that? As for my being a "tool", that is a matter of opinion (and you know what they say about those.)
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Can I read music? Well, kind of. I can look at the "shaped notes" as Johnny Cash used to call them and figure out a few things such as the key, the actual notes, the values of said shaped notes, and if I have the time..... can actually play it on the piano if it's in the key of C, G, or maybe D. I often write out the first few notes of the melody to a new song I'm working on so I don't lose it. Just the note names is all I need to recall the melody.
I studied piano for 7 years as a kid and music theory on high school for 2 years plus playing in the school band and orchestra as a drummer. Yep, I was a drummer from 3rd grade up through 11th grade. All of that was based on the simple premise that reading was necessary. I hated reading the music, especially percussion. I always felt that it was too limiting. I wanted to jam and improvise.
One particular event comes to mind. My piano teacher gave me a new piece of sheet music and told me it was a very beautiful melody. She played it by reading it so I could hear it with instructions to learn it the following week. So I went home and started to work on it. Next week, at my lesson, she asked me to play it for her. I told her I really liked the melody and proceeded to play it. When I finished she clapped and said that was absolutely beautiful .....and well played..... now, would I play it again.... and this time.... play what was actually written on the sheet music. Busted!
I developed the ability to hear a song and know what was going on so that I could play practically anything without a lot of rehearsal time or the need for sheet music. When I played with the church orchestra, we played a lot in all those flat keys. I relied on the sheet music a good amount and the chord charts.
I don't look down on those who can read, nor those who can't. We're all musicians and have our unique ways to express ourselves with our music. To those who only sight read, I encourage you to learn how to play by ear as it can make you a better musician as it lets you get into the music and feel it. To those who can't read and don't know any theory, once again, take the time to learn at least the basics as it too will make you a better player because you will understand the deeper aspects to the music you play.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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I once knew a woman who played in Eugene Ormandy's Philadelphia orchestra. She played Harp. Beautifully. Now, that is some serious notation, Jack. She would stare in wonder at my 12-string as I played my trite little songs. Then she said "I'd love to be able to do that." "Do what?" I said. "Improvise" Different strokes. Regards, Bob
Last edited by 90 dB; 01/28/19 11:23 AM.
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I just got fed up with all the snobbery on a site dedicated to typing in chords and "making" music. Gotta agree with you there!
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I can recall several heated debates with my father who played various brass instruments mainly trumpet and cornet. He had several instruments set up in different keys (Bb and Eb cornetsfor example”). My father could site read, he could also knock out a tune by ear. He was awarded recognition by several musical organisations. He could play the notes but in my opinion had little feel in most stuff he played.
One day we were playing together (a very rare event as we did not see eye to eye) things were going along nicely and he played this beautiful note and held it. I asked why did you destroy the feel. His answer was I played the music as written there is a fermata on that note. Yes I said but if you have a heap of dancers on the floor it is more important to keep to the time. He could not see that. His opinion was the fermata was there and made it fine. I guess the people dancing needed to understand the importance of a beautifully played note.
Then again another time by this time dad was 84. He was coming to my second marriage ceremony. We lived in a different state and he’d be in our area for a couple of weeks. Before he left home he asked if I could lend him a cornet or trumpet. I told him I could and quickly forgot that. After a couple of days he asked where is the trumpet. “When you get to my age (84) if you don’t practice every day you lose your lip.”
Anyway at the wedding we had a top musician playing a keyboard. Dad went over and asked if he could play a tune on the cornet. No worries said the keyboard player what are you going to play. Il Silenzio says dad (one tune he always played with feeling), right (chortle) says the keyboard player. The keyboard player starts an intro, dad starts playing, the keyboard players jaw dropped he stooped and looked at the old man amazed. At the end of the song he said to my father will you play some more with me. Yeh says dad, what would you like asks the keyboard player. Whatever you want says dad. What key asks the keyboard play. Dad looks at him and says, “just play sonny I’ll find you”. They played on for 30+ minutes.
Sorry to be long winded but it is a story I wanted to tell.
Tony
Last edited by Teunis; 01/28/19 01:53 PM.
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Actually, since my stroke paralyzed my right side I can't play guitar anymore. I explained that to you a year ago in a PM, when you had complimented me on my playing and wanted me to do some tracks for you. Remember that? As for my being a "tool", that is a matter of opinion (and you know what they say about those.) [/quote] I think you maybe mentioned this once before Bob, whatever the discussion about reading music or not, good to see you starting these discussion and keeping that crazy sense of humour of yours. Must all be down to that Starmaker machine or whatever the hell you call it.. Wonder if it would do anything for me....
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I don't look down on musicians who can't read or don't know much theory, instead, I hope I encourage them to take some time to learn to read and learn music theory. Why? Because in the long run I truly believe it will make them better musicians and make music more fun and rewarding for them.
Yes there are many skills to have in music. Reading is one, theory is one, big ears are very important, improvisation is another skill, and the list goes on and on.
Every skill we acquire as a musician enhances what we can do to reach a listener emotionally. And for me, that's what it's all about.
Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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I was working briefly with a bunch of guys trying to get the into a lace where they were passable enough to take their little blues band (We have at least 100 bands here that do what they do) out to play it. During one rehearsal, the singer missed the timing on a pickup note AGAIN (6 straight rehearsals he made the same mistake) and I went OFF on him. I told him that he kept making that same mistake every week, and every week I corrected it, and he did it right. Until the next week when he did it wrong again.
I tried to explain the concept of "anticipation", where sometimes a syllable comes before the downbeat.
Deer in the headlights.
Then I asked the million dollar question. "Don't you know what the downbeat is?"
He didn't know that! How do you play guitar and sing and NOT know what "downbeat" means? Had this guy cared enough about the craft that is music he would have invested 2 hours per night 2 nights a week for 9-10 weeks and learned BASIC BASICS. I don't ask that anybody can score a 16 staff symphony. Learn what rhythm is. Learn the circle of 5ths. Learn how to read time signatures. Learn the steps of a scale, the difference between major and minor, how to build chords. I don't expect anybody to suddenly become Mozart and write manuscripts perfectly the first time to where there is no backup copy. Just learn basic basics.
We had a discussion here once about chord structure and how I was taught the concept. Everybody dismissed the way I learned it by half step count to tell me "Any major chord is 1-4-5." Great.
What does 4 mean? What does 5 mean? 1-4-5 calls for the person to know scales and scale structure. Where the half steps and whole steps are. To a newbie, 1-4-5 means what downbeat meant to that singer.
As far as that band, I called the guy who was running the band and business side of it that night and said I wouldn't be back. I can't fit into a group of people who call themselves musicians and don't speak "music". I told them that with what he had to work with, which was a young hot guitar player and a bunch of guys named Joe, that they would never be more than a "wives and girlfriends, friends and family" type band and that I wasn't interested in playing for 20 people. They played 6 gigs, the guitar player bailed to move to Nashville, and they got a new guitar player who was yet another "wing it" player. They lasted 6 more gigs and disbanded. At the root of it was that the guy running it was the drummer and he was possibly the worst drummer I ever tried to play in front of. I turned on a click track at that same final rehearsal and he was already off time after 4 bars. You can hide anything on stage except the drummer. The drummer has to be great. When I was in the Motown band and we were auditioning for a new drummer, it came down to 2 guys. We called them both and said that we were going out that night to drink some beer and hear some music and they should join us. When they got there we all sat around and didn't talk about the band AT ALL. What I DID do was have one of the band's girl followers "just happen to be there" and get them both to dance. One was smooth as could be on the dance floor. The other looked like a badly animated stick figure. We hired the good dancer, because he had a better natural feel for rhythm.
And he knew what quarter note triplets are. (Theory.)
I am using the new 1040XTRAEZ form this year. It has just 2 lines.
1. How much did you make in 2023?
2. Send it to us.
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My first instrument was banjo. I also play guitar and bass guitar. Oh, I am forgetting Handbells with the church's choir.
I was taught banjo without notes nor tab. All I can say is that is one ornery instrument. Timing was non-existent for me. I fought with it... and fought... and fought.
But, between the handbells, guitar and bass guitar, I did learn theory. It has made that banjo a bit easier to understand and play.
...Deb
Last edited by DSM; 01/29/19 06:37 AM.
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Yes there are many skills to have in music. Reading is one, theory is one, big ears are very important, improvisation is another skill, and the list goes on and on. Every skill we acquire as a musician enhances what we can do to reach a listener emotionally. And for me, that's what it's all about.
Insights and incites by Notes Yep.... Personally... I was a music major back in the mid 70's. I took some classical guitar classes and an arrangement class. That's where I learned to actually read music. Was I a great sight reader?....NO, not by any stretch. Although, I could read and figure out how to play something. Being as how I had been a long time song writer by then and was in a working rock band I gravitated much more to theory and arrangement than being a proficient sight reader. If I desire to improve my music skills/abilities, interact/engage and learn from other musicians far better than myself it's incumbent of me to learn_the_language of music.....IE: theory. Not to dismiss the importance of learning the language of music by parroting....."oh Bill Bland & The Chandeliers didn't read music or know theory....so, I don't need to either". Buuuuut....that's just me. Carry on....
Last edited by chulaivet1966; 01/29/19 08:05 AM.
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I was working briefly with a bunch of guys trying to get the into a lace where they were passable enough to take their little blues band (We have at least 100 bands here that do what they do) out to play it. During one rehearsal, the singer missed the timing on a pickup note AGAIN (6 straight rehearsals he made the same mistake) and I went OFF on him. I told him that he kept making that same mistake every week, and every week I corrected it, and he did it right. Until the next week when he did it wrong again.
I tried to explain the concept of "anticipation", where sometimes a syllable comes before the downbeat.
Deer in the headlights.
Then I asked the million dollar question. "Don't you know what the downbeat is?"
He didn't know that! How do you play guitar and sing and NOT know what "downbeat" means? Had this guy cared enough about the craft that is music he would have invested 2 hours per night 2 nights a week for 9-10 weeks and learned BASIC BASICS. I don't ask that anybody can score a 16 staff symphony. Learn what rhythm is. Learn the circle of 5ths. Learn how to read time signatures. Learn the steps of a scale, the difference between major and minor, how to build chords. I don't expect anybody to suddenly become Mozart and write manuscripts perfectly the first time to where there is no backup copy. Just learn basic basics.
We had a discussion here once about chord structure and how I was taught the concept. Everybody dismissed the way I learned it by half step count to tell me "Any major chord is 1-4-5." Great.
What does 4 mean? What does 5 mean? 1-4-5 calls for the person to know scales and scale structure. Where the half steps and whole steps are. To a newbie, 1-4-5 means what downbeat meant to that singer.
As far as that band, I called the guy who was running the band and business side of it that night and said I wouldn't be back. I can't fit into a group of people who call themselves musicians and don't speak "music". I told them that with what he had to work with, which was a young hot guitar player and a bunch of guys named Joe, that they would never be more than a "wives and girlfriends, friends and family" type band and that I wasn't interested in playing for 20 people. They played 6 gigs, the guitar player bailed to move to Nashville, and they got a new guitar player who was yet another "wing it" player. They lasted 6 more gigs and disbanded. At the root of it was that the guy running it was the drummer and he was possibly the worst drummer I ever tried to play in front of. I turned on a click track at that same final rehearsal and he was already off time after 4 bars. You can hide anything on stage except the drummer. The drummer has to be great. When I was in the Motown band and we were auditioning for a new drummer, it came down to 2 guys. We called them both and said that we were going out that night to drink some beer and hear some music and they should join us. When they got there we all sat around and didn't talk about the band AT ALL. What I DID do was have one of the band's girl followers "just happen to be there" and get them both to dance. One was smooth as could be on the dance floor. The other looked like a badly animated stick figure. We hired the good dancer, because he had a better natural feel for rhythm.
And he knew what quarter note triplets are. (Theory.)
Awww Guess that would have ruled me out of your band too Eddie, I'm a terrible dancer!
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I was taught banjo without notes nor tab. All I can say is that is one ornery instrument. Timing was non-existent for me. I fought with it... and fought... and fought.
...Deb
Earl Scruggs felt that it was impossible to teach his 3 finger style of picking banjo without tablature. Considering that his picking style requires hitting a specific string for a given note, and tab s the only efficient way to do that, I agree with him.
Keith
2024 Audiophile Windows 11 AMD RYZEN THREADRIPPER 3960X 4.5GHZ 128 GB RAM 2 Nvidia RTX 3090s, Vegas,Acid,SoundForge,Izotope Production,Melodyne Studio,Cakewalk,Raven Mti
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Everyone should feel free to make music in anyway they see fit.This is one of the really great things about music. You can be super well educated and make great music. You can be more or less totally uneducated and make great music.
There are many benefits to being able to read and write music. It is a pretty direct way of communicating a musical idea to someone.It is a great way to get new ideas.
There are no real disadvantages to being better educated. Educated folks can break rules just as easily as anyone else.
I have spent a ton of time in the blues world and I can tell you there blues players who can read, write, and run circles around many people with university music degrees. And don't assume because a blues player is playing a 1/4/5 that is all they know how to play.
I don't read very well or have a university education in music. No one on this site has ever been unkind to me as a result of my less than stellar abilities. I have never felt looked down on here. Actually, many very well educated people have really gone out of their way to help me learn new things.
I think BB is a really good tool to use to create music. I also score out many things I create in standard notation and will use any trick in the book to get what I want, to include hiring the best studio musicians I can get my hands on.
I will try to say it in a polite way...To be exclusionary is illogical at best....at worst....well....
Cheers,
Billy
BTW...I ASSUME anyone reading this knows what a 1/4/5 is...if not just ask!!...lol
New location, new environment, new music coming soon
Seize the moo-ment
If you feel like you’ve herd all these cow puns before, you probably have deja-moo
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............
BTW...I ASSUME anyone reading this knows what a 1/4/5 is...if not just ask!!...lol Yes I know what 1 divided 4 divided by 5 is! It's 0.05! Ducking and running for cover!
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
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There is more than one right way to make music.
And you can study music all your life and never run out of new things to learn.
Some very educated musicians can be great technicians and lousy musicians, or they can be great technicians and great musicians.
Studying music is a way to learn how to use the tools of music. If you know the tools well, you can usually express yourself better.
Great talent can overcome lack of education, but if that great talent is educated I would think he/she would be even better.
That isn't to say that you are lousy without the education, it's just that you can get better with it.
At least that's how I feel about it - YMMV
Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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Everyone should feel free to make music in anyway they see fit. Did you totally miss the concept here? Nobody said that not learning music means borders or limitations., The entire thread is full of people essentially saying "Yes you can hack around and play by ear and learn a song every 2 weeks or you can invest 10 weeks of your time, learn the basic basics of music, and learn 10 a day. You can also stumble your way though building a big brick barbecue with no masonry skills, but wouldn't it go faster, and end up better, if you took a class? Particularly when you consider that trying to learn as you go means that the lowest courses of brick, the foundation of the whole thing, is where you have the greatest potential for errors. But how solid would all those courses of brick above be of you had a good foundation? By the top courses you would be laying that brick faster and better. I have never seen a group of people with such tunnel vision. The people who don't read are the ones becoming defensive about their own skills set and jumping to the defense of other non readers by pointing out THREE people who can't read and succeeded. Do you people get the concept of "specifics" versus "generalities"? Wow. Nobody is saying you are a lesser player or a lesser person. Just that knowledge is power in every situation, so why not gather as much knowledge as you can in a field you obviously have some passion about?
Last edited by eddie1261; 02/07/19 04:30 AM.
I am using the new 1040XTRAEZ form this year. It has just 2 lines.
1. How much did you make in 2023?
2. Send it to us.
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Off-Topic
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Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 7,302
Veteran
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Veteran
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 7,302 |
That isn't to say that you are lousy without the education, it's just that you can get better with it.
Faster, too. Maybe it's the goal of some of these people to start playing gigs in 2025.
I am using the new 1040XTRAEZ form this year. It has just 2 lines.
1. How much did you make in 2023?
2. Send it to us.
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
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Update Your PowerTracks Pro Audio 2024 Today!
The Newest RealBand 2024 Update is Here!
The newest RealBand 2024 Build 5 update is now available!
Download and install this to your RealBand 2024 for updated print options, streamlined loading and saving of .SGU & MGU (BB) files, and to add a number of program adjustments that address user-reported bugs and concerns.
This free update is available to all RealBand 2024 users. To learn more about this update and download it, head to www.pgmusic.com/support.realband.htm#20245
The Band-in-a-Box® Flash Drive Backup Option
Today (April 5) is National Flash Drive Day!
Did you know... not only can you download your Band-in-a-Box® Pro, MegaPAK, or PlusPAK purchase - you can also choose to add a flash drive backup copy with the installation files for only $15? It even comes with a Band-in-a-Box® keychain!
For the larger Band-in-a-Box® packages (UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition), the hard drive backup copy is available for only $25. This will include a preinstalled and ready to use program, along with your installation files.
Backup copies are offered during the checkout process on our website.
Already purchased your e-delivery version, and now you wish you had a backup copy? It's not too late! If your purchase was for the current version of Band-in-a-Box®, you can still reach out to our team directly to place your backup copy order!
Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.
Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!
Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!
If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
Convenient Ways to Listen to Band-in-a-Box® Songs Created by Program Users!
The User Showcase Forum is an excellent place to share your Band-in-a-Box® songs and listen to songs other program users are creating!
There are other places you can listen to these songs too! Visit our User Showcase page to sort by genre, artist (forum name), song title, and date - each listing will direct you to the forum post for that song.
If you'd rather listen to these songs in one place, head to our Band-in-a-Box® Radio, where you'll have the option to select the genre playlist for your listening pleasure. This page has SoundCloud built in, so it won't redirect you. We've also added the link to the Artists SoundCloud page here, and a link to their forum post.
We hope you find some inspiration from this amazing collection of User Showcase Songs!
Congratulations to the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
We've just announced the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
There are 45 winners, each receiving a Band-in-a-Box 2024 UltraPAK! Read the official announcement to see if you've won.
Our User Showcase Forum receives more than 50 posts per day, with people sharing their Band-in-a-Box songs and providing feedback for other songs posted.
Thank you to everyone who has contributed!
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