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I think all of these factors play a part, but what I would like to know is the following
Under equal tempreament, each note ilt ls a compromise, or at least most of them. They can vary by different percentages. I think this may well have an effect on the 'darkness' of a key too. I don't know any source that I could use to compare though, least not one I could understand
Z
Win 11 64, Asus Rog Strix z390 mobo, 64 gig RAM, 8700k
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Hi Z, Yes, I get what you are talking about. I have dug into this subject a bit in the past. The complexity of the math and the physic of sound was enough to stop me from putting the effort to completely understand the precise relationships. I started to explain what I think I know, then thought better of it. This is a link to a pretty good explanation but be prepared to put on your math hat. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperamentEven Better some stuff from UC Berkeley...you might know someone from California would get in the middle of all this...lol https://ptolemy.berkeley.edu/eecs20/week8/scale.html What I wanted to do is find the exact frequency of all notes in a short piece of music in e major and transpose to a flat and compare the two to see if there was any difference in the frequency relationship of the intervals. If that makes any sense to anyone including me...lol The problem with all this conversation about sound is the vague examples we use to try to communicate. We would most like never agree on exactly what "happy" sounds like but we can more easily agree on what different intervals sound like. A new Samsung 1/2 TB USB SSB drive was just delivered by FedX so I need to go play with my new toy!! Damn! this thing is tiny. Cheers, Billy
New location, new environment, new music coming soon
Seize the moo-ment
If you feel like you’ve herd all these cow puns before, you probably have deja-moo
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Whenever I change keys in BIAB, all I hear is the same music played at higher and lower pitches. I personally have not noticed that I experience any substantial emotional impact from the different keys. The emotional impact for me comes from whether major, minor or modal keys are used. That is exactly how I see it. I choose a key based on my ability to sing my part.
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Whenever I change keys in BIAB, all I hear is the same music played at higher and lower pitches. I personally have not noticed that I experience any substantial emotional impact from the different keys. The emotional impact for me comes from whether major, minor or modal keys are used.
That is exactly how I see it. I choose a key based on my ability to sing my part. That my friends is what keys are all about. If the singer and/or lead instrument can not sing/play in the chosen key then the band will suck. In other words the key is determined by the lead singer/instrument.
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Whenever I change keys in BIAB, all I hear is the same music played at higher and lower pitches. I personally have not noticed that I experience any substantial emotional impact from the different keys. The emotional impact for me comes from whether major, minor or modal keys are used.
That is exactly how I see it. I choose a key based on my ability to sing my part. That my friends is what keys are all about. If the singer and/or lead instrument can not sing/play in the chosen key then the band will suck. In other words the key is determined by the lead singer/instrument. Amen
HP i7-4770 16GB 1TB SSD, Win 10 Home,
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Great discussion on this. I remember reading a fascinating article about "Equal temperament" and "Just Intonation". Noel really explained that nicely.
Years ago, when I played a lot of trumpet, I would write songs/arrangements in "standard" band keys. These keys would make playing easier on trumpets, bones, saxes, etc...
Now that I'm a vocalist/guitar player, I rarely think about what key I write in. Whatever key fits me and my wife's vocal range is what I shoot for. Even then, sometimes going up or down a half-step can make a big difference in how a song feels.
Rich
Windows 10, 64 bit | BIAB 2019 PlusPak | Studio One 2 Artist
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After a good bit experimenting with my digital piano, I just can not find a really noticeable difference in playing in C or C# or ab and E. I also checked to see if I could tell any difference if I played in a key or used the transpose button. There was none that I could hear.
On an electronic keyboard whether or not something is in a flat key or sharp key does not seem to make any difference even with two very different vocals with different lyrical context. Point being, a dark angry vocal does not seem to change in a flat key or sharp key.
I don't know how this experiment would be with other instruments.
If I understand equal temperament correctly the ratio is the same for every note.
Psychoacoustics is the study of how humans hear sounds. I am not even sure I can spell that...lol...so I am sure I have very little knowledge of the science.
This idea of "brighter" or "melancholy" may very well be a hold over from the conditions that Noel talked about in his post. I don't think it is accurate in today's world of equal temperament. I also think we all tend to use words that are in essence meaningless to describe something. Meaningless because ask a hundred people to define what they mean and you get a hundred different answers.Go ask a 100 people what freedom means!!
I certainly agree with Rich that moving the key up or down on the guitar can make a noticeable difference. Some songs just sound better in certain keys to me.
Cheers,
Billy
New location, new environment, new music coming soon
Seize the moo-ment
If you feel like you’ve herd all these cow puns before, you probably have deja-moo
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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I only assume that Beethoven meant for String Quartet no. 14, 1st movement to be the very definitions of "melancholy" well...he wrote it in C# minor not Cb minor.
I rest my case...lol...lol
Cheers,
Billy
New location, new environment, new music coming soon
Seize the moo-ment
If you feel like you’ve herd all these cow puns before, you probably have deja-moo
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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You can thank Bill Monroe with his high lonesome tenor for the songs in B--5 sharps! Yikes.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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A,E,D with a capo on the second fret..........gives you five sharps with three chords and three fingers
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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To the guy that said A# sounds like Bb well there is no key of A#. The only sharp key with a # in it's name is F#. Sorry.
How important the actual bass line is is also a factor in choosing the key.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Well, there is also C#, but rather than play in seven sharps, most people would probably choose the five flats of Db.
[F# or Gb is a coin flip of either six sharps or six flats, respectively.]
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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A,E,D with a capo on the second fret..........gives you five sharps with three chords and three fingers
A little bit difficult on my grand piano ! 
BIAB & RB2024 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
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OK Matt for my education. Circle of 5ths. C no sharps or flats,G,D,A,E,B,F#/Gb,.Isn't this really the end of the sharp keys? Then it's Db,Ab,Eb,Bb,F,C
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Once again stage lingo for me. Calling out keys to a song.
Closed fist = C
1 finger up = G
2 up = D
etc.
1 down = F
2 down = Bb
etc.
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No, you could go one step further and some Circle of Fifths diagrams will continue one step to show 7 sharps (and seven flats). A few then venture into double sharps or double flats, but by then my eyes glaze over!
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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My circle of fifth chart hanging on the wall in front of me shows C# and Cb off to one side at the bottom...seven sharps or seven flats. I have seen double sharps and flats but only with really dark sun glasses on...lol
I use to play with an old blues piano player who played everything in C#. He was a nice guy and a friend of mine. I was playing guitar so it was no big deal for me.
When I ask Walter one day why he played everything in C# he said "Billy, I am a black man and I play on the black keys". I did not pursue the conversation any further as his answer made perfect sense to me!!
I guess there are some things that just don't come in the classical training manual...lol
Cheers,
Billy
New location, new environment, new music coming soon
Seize the moo-ment
If you feel like you’ve herd all these cow puns before, you probably have deja-moo
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To the guy that said A# sounds like Bb well there is no key of A#. The only sharp key with a # in it's name is F#. Sorry.
How important the actual bass line is is also a factor in choosing the key. Actually there is a key of A#: https://www.basicmusictheory.com/a-sharp-major-key-signatureBut give me Bb any time!
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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Yes, I agree. I already knew that Eb is way up there.
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
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Update Your PowerTracks Pro Audio 2024 Today!
The Newest RealBand 2024 Update is Here!
The newest RealBand 2024 Build 5 update is now available!
Download and install this to your RealBand 2024 for updated print options, streamlined loading and saving of .SGU & MGU (BB) files, and to add a number of program adjustments that address user-reported bugs and concerns.
This free update is available to all RealBand 2024 users. To learn more about this update and download it, head to www.pgmusic.com/support.realband.htm#20245
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Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!
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A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
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The User Showcase Forum is an excellent place to share your Band-in-a-Box® songs and listen to songs other program users are creating!
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